Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Kite0692]

I think you can use an angled down Ftilt when people go for regrabing the ledge.

I use it very rarely in neutral game lol.

 

[Ekans647]

I use F-tilt to punish poke when D-tilt can't. It keeps the opponent close, but gives you some breathing space. Other than that, I have trouble finding uses for it.

 

[Lavani]

For those that haven't heard yet, customs are on for EVO. Importing new sets isn't going to be allowed due to time constraints, so we need four more sets for AA's custom moveset project. I'm sure the sets we already have cover most if not all bases anyway, but any Greninjas going should make sure they'll have everything they want to use.

 

[Funkermonster]

Came back from a tournament just yesterday, used and the majority of the time and got 10th/63. I've met a good amount of worthy opponents and I felt soooo powerful from yesterday, probably the most fun tournament I have had yet! Next time they're gonna allow customs (much to some peoples' dismay) so I'll bet it'll be even more fun. I think I can use Shadow Dash and Explosion just fine, but I have no idea how to use Shifting Shurikens since I haven't unlocked it yet, though I know a lot of people are saying its good. When I used it yesterday I had no idea what I was doing most of the time, and I liked Default Shurikens a lot more. How do you use this?

Also surprisingly, despite being my 2ndary, I didn't use all that much except for one set, and I haven't been playing him enough recently nor used his customs (Almost all of Sonic's customs are pretty bad though, so I'm not worried about mastering his before the next time). I dunno if I even want him as my secondary anymore, since I've has a blast playing Mega Man just as much if not more. The Blue Bomber or The Blue Blur? Decisions, decisions.... With customs announced, I've also got , , , and in the lab; at least for friendlies. Their customs are just too awesome.

 

[mimgrim]

Shifting Shuriken is more of a projectile that increases his combo game/kill confirms at mid or higher percents. I also believe the second Shuriken (the one that needs to be held down) is transcendent which is an incredible property to have in a projectile, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

[Ekans647]

So what are Greninja's best customs? I'm most comfortable with his neutrals.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So what are Greninja's best customs? I'm most comfortable with his neutrals.

I've heard most praise for Shifting Shuriken.

 

[FullMoon]

Shifting Shuriken is a projectile with trascendent priority that combos into all of Greninja's kill moves, it's his best custom by far.

Exploding Attack is good as well, but I'm not too keen on Shadow Dash, losing the versatility of regular Shadow Sneak really hurts it for me.

 

[mimgrim]

Shifting Shuriken and Exploding Attack are his best customs. There's also some love for Shadow Dash but I don't really get why. Up Special should always be default.

 

[Lavani]

Shifting Shuriken, combos, etc. The piercing projectile means it'll pierce through Luma and hit Rosalina, so it has its uses for that matchup as well.

Exploding Attack is cool if you don't use Substitute. The hitbox is huge and Greninja floats using it midair, so you can edgeguard with it like Sheik's runoff Vanish.

Shadow Dash...I don't feel like it's anywhere near rewarding enough for how much you commit to it. The damage and kill power of the default is better.
---
I've been messing with Single-Shot Pump the last couple of days, while the linearity of its recovery is really bleh it turns the water shot into an actual hitbox with hitstun and knockback, and the shot has absurd downward reach:

The horizontal knockback angle makes it really good for gimping low recoveries, especially if it hits them under/into the stage. In terms of the recovery itself, it's much faster than Hydro Pump and goes higher, and interestingly his air speed isn't negatively impacted in helpless unlike with the default, so his horizontal recovery isn't hampered much.

I'd say Hydro Pump is still better for its flexibility, but Single-Shot Pump's pretty cool against low recoveries and I could see it having some niche use.

 

[wizardto1]

I am a bit of a casual but how exactly can I pull off the up air meteor smash. I done it a few times by accident but I really want to know to put it to good use.

 

[Lavani]

I am a bit of a casual but how exactly can I pull off the up air meteor smash. I done it a few times by accident but I really want to know to put it to good use.

The first four hits of uair knock the opponent toward Greninja's legs to keep them in the attack. If you fastfall during these hits, it pulls them downward.

 

[Kace Mono]

Did anyone watch aMSa's stream last night? (for me it was last night) The guy moves so quick i can barely keep up with what he's doing. it makes me look at myself and want to become a better player but even with years of practice and tournaments i don't think i could be that quick.

 

[Marilink]

All right guys, I need some help.

As FullMoon can attest after our games yesterday, I am having a lot of trouble in the Neutral right now. To me, it just feels like I am constantly making all the wrong decisions while my opponent is reading me like an open book. This has always been a nagging feeling for me, but after taking a 3-or-so week from Smash 4, I've come back and found that I can hardly play the neutral game anymore.

Is there any advice other than just "Make better decisions" or "Read better"? Because I really don't want to go to Warehouse 3.14 while I'm still feeling completely un-confident of my neutral.

 

[mimgrim]

Tell me how you play out the neutral first.

 

[Mocha]

Lol ok so lately I've been buying home furnishings on Amazon. And for some reason, they sent me this...

and now I actually want one damn it...

 

[FullMoon]

Lol ok so lately I've been buying home furnishings on Amazon. And for some reason, they sent me this...

and now I actually want one damn it...

I feel you sis. You don't know how much I want all of those and can't buy because I'm Brazilian and Amazon hates me.

I had those popping up as ads for months, they keep taunting me ;-;

One day, maybe.

 

[Marilink]

Tell me how you play out the neutral first.

Offensively, I am trying to either land a SH Nair/Fair or find the opportunity for a grab. Defensively, I am just trying to evade as best I can by using my mobility to avoid their grabs and attacks.

Some problems I have are that I have a really tough time with projectiles, especially Link and ROB, and then I also have a tough time against people who can handle my mobility, like Sheiks, other Greninjas, and CF. Again, like I said, in all these MUs I feel extremely hemmed in, like I can't execute any approaches or punishes like I want.

 

[Mocha]

I feel you sis. You don't know how much I want all of those and can't buy because I'm Brazilian and Amazon hates me.

I had those popping up as ads for months, they keep taunting me ;-;

One day, maybe.

Aw, does Amazon not do international shipping? If these plushies were a little cheaper, I'd ship some to all of you lol. I have this Amazon gift card that I've been spending stuff on.

@ Marilink I actually really dislike the CF MU for Greninja. Character that can get in our face and give us trouble can be such a struggle due to Greninja's poor out of shield options/bad standing grab. CF's jab tends to beat ours as well <.<

 

[FullMoon]

Aw, does Amazon not do international shipping? If these plushies were a little cheaper, I'd ship some to all of you lol. I have this Amazon gift card that I've been spending stuff on.

I think they do ship to other places, just not Brazil. I was so disappointed when I learned that because I don't think there's anything right now that I want to buy as much as those. Even though I have other games I'm probably gonna end up playing Smash most of the time anyway.

 

[Mocha]

I think they do ship to other places, just not Brazil. I was so disappointed when I learned that because I don't think there's anything right now that I want to buy as much as those. Even though I have other games I'm probably gonna end up playing Smash most of the time anyway.

That's silly that they don't ship to Brazil. Well an alternative option would be for them to ship to me, then I can ship to you. You're in Rio, right? My dad lives there, and I've sent stuff to him from time to time.

 

[FullMoon]

That's silly that they don't ship to Brazil. Well an alternative option would be for them to ship to me, then I can ship to you. You're in Rio, right? My dad lives there, and I've sent stuff to him from time to time.

I suppose that's an alternative, though I don't really want to bother you with that just because of a plush.

Plus the one I want the most is the most expensive of the two.

 

[Mocha]

I suppose that's an alternative, though I don't really want to bother you with that just because of a plush.

Plus the one I want the most is the most expensive of the two.

Lol you, it's not a bother. I have about $100 left to spend on my Amazon gift card, might as well find some use for it other than for my own. I could probably order several plushies if anyone else wants, though I can't help but think that the seller will think I'm kinda crazy which I am but that's beside the point.

Omg there's like holographic Pokemon cards there for like $1. Man I wish those were back in the day when I collected them...

 

[FullMoon]

Lol you, it's not a bother. I have about $100 left to spend on my Amazon gift card, might as well find some use for it other than for my own. I could probably order several plushies if anyone else wants, though I can't help but think that the seller will think I'm kinda crazy which I am but that's beside the point.

Omg there's like holographic Pokemon cards there for like $1. Man I wish those were back in the day when I collected them...

Well, I guess if you're ok with it we could arrange that.

It feels weird to ask somebody on the internet to buy something for me though =P

And since you mentioned holographic cards:

This is my little treasure. I don't even play the TCG but hell yes.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Well, I guess if you're ok with it we could arrange that.

It feels weird to ask somebody on the internet to buy something for me though =P

And since you mentioned holographic cards:

This is my little treasure. I don't even play the TCG but hell yes.

So are you gonna get a Greninja Amiibo at launch should one be made for him? : 3

 

[FullMoon]

So are you gonna get a Greninja Amiibo at launch should one be made for him? : 3

I'm going to pester my dad as if I had reverted back to a 6 years old kid again until he loses the will to fight and buys it, yes.

Though actually he already knows how much I like Greninja so he probably doesn't need any convincing.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I'm going to pester my dad as if I had reverted back to a 6 years old kid again until he loses the will to fight and buys it, yes.

Though actually he already knows how much I like Greninja so he probably doesn't need any convincing.

I know the feeling. It didnt take my dad very much convincing to get him to let me order a Fox amiibo online since im a big gamer. : P

 

[Ekans647]

Well, I guess if you're ok with it we could arrange that.

It feels weird to ask somebody on the internet to buy something for me though =P

And since you mentioned holographic cards:

This is my little treasure. I don't even play the TCG but hell yes.

I know the feeling. I actually play TCG. I have a few gems that I build deck around.

 

[Coffee™]

http://smashboards.com/threads/disc...d-with-wii-fit-trainer-is-it-possible.391521/

Can someone test this for Greninja? (not home atm) Seems promising considering he likes all slide related tech.

 

[FullMoon]

http://smashboards.com/threads/disc...d-with-wii-fit-trainer-is-it-possible.391521/

Can someone test this for Greninja? (not home atm) Seems promising considering he likes all slide related tech.

I could try, though I'm really bad at this kind of stuff, but it would help to know exactly how it should be done.

 

[Coffee™]

I could try, though I'm really bad at this kind of stuff, but it would help to know exactly how it should be done.

It's explained a little later down in the thread.

You land, crouch quickly backwards and release the stick immediatly, then input your move.
Land -> crouch back (assuming your watching right) ->release stick -> input move.

 

[FullMoon]

It's explained a little later down in the thread.

Oooh man.

I don't think I can get the timing right with the crawl, if it's possible that is.

I'm going to try to nail the timing down with WFT or Sheik first to see if I can get the hang of it and then I'll see if Greninja can do it.

No promises though.

 

[Space thing]

While practicing with WTF, I couldn't get the same distance as the WFT in the video, but I could definitely get a slide. I then tried it with Greninja and also got a slide (maybe slightly less than what I was getting with WFT). So yea, it's definitely possible with Gerninja to get at least a small slide (less than a perfect pivot) and someone with better timing might about to get a much bigger slide like what we know WFT and Sheik can do. I could also get this tiny slide with most of Greninja's moves (including jumping) minus Hydro Pump, Substitute and maybe Grab (I usually got a Jab instead).

It seems like this could be useful for making minor spacing adjustments even if we can't get a large slide, but we'll see.

 

[FullMoon]

I can't do it for the life of me.

However I did manage to perfect pivot exactly once. So hey, I can now do a perfect pivot once every 100 tries, that's something I guess.

 

[Ekans647]

I can't do it for the life of me.

However I did manage to perfect pivot exactly once. So hey, I can now do a perfect pivot once every 100 tries, that's something I guess.

I'd imagine. I took me 2 weeks to master DACUS with Snake in Brawl. It was soooo worth to style in front of my friends.

So in RL, I almost called my Social Studies teacher Greninja.

 

[Coffee™]

I can't do it for the life of me.

However I did manage to perfect pivot exactly once. So hey, I can now do a perfect pivot once every 100 tries, that's something I guess.

It's mostly a muscle memory thing. Once you work out how your fingers needs to move for the button inputs it'll get a lot easier.

I'll try out this tech when I get home and see what I can come up with.

 

[Mocha]

Why does Sheik get stuff like this, and we get stuff like up air spikes that can be teched/other complicated ATs? ._.;

On another note, I spent over an hour working on a list of Greninja's strengths and weaknesses. Even if a lot of this is common sense, I want to be more aware of the character, and I think it may give an idea to new players as well who are trying to pick up Greninja. Anyway, let me know what you guys think, and if you have any suggestions. Oh and if I'm missing anything on either category. Thanks!

Weaknesses

1) Poor out of shield options/awkward punish options

• Bad standing grab (frame: 14/15)
• Shadow sneak out of shield requires strict timing if tilting your shield.
• Instances where after you shield and punish, you will miss at point blank (blind spot moves especially such as F-smash, D-smash, and F-air).

2) Has to work for kills/generally cannot get early kills (sweet spot upsmash aside)

• Because of this, the character requires patience and precision to use. A mistake can be the cost of losing an entire match due to stock/rage mode pressure and desperation for the kill.
• Does not have a move that kills ridiculously early to help regain momentum.

3) More than half of his aerials require commitment.

• Down air can be easily telegraphed and punished if missed.
• Neutral air has a start up delay.
• Forward air also has start up delay and is difficult to short hop due to the height of his jump.

4) Has an unreliable counter compared to other counters, even if the idea of choosing the direction to counter is interesting in concept. Opponents can sometimes shield after the substitute comes out, or outright hit Greninja anyway if they’re using a multi-hit move.

5) Is kind of light, so can be killed early, especially by rage/heavy hitters

6) This is not really a con in itself, but for people who play a character simply for the sake of fast. Gets outclassed by other ‘speedy’ characters such as Sonic, Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, ZSS

*Technical error by players* This small section isn't fault of the character's weaknesses, but of the player if the input does not come out as intended. As such, another reason the character requires precision.

• Up B is a great recovery, but it’s easy to buffer a Shadow Sneak by accident when trying to angle his recovery.
• "Bad game design" where Up B can bounce off the edge and send you into a helpless state (you can use an aerial/special/wall cling, but not Up B again)
• Neutral air prone to SDs if you get pushed off-stage or badly input one off-stage (especially fast fallen).

Strengths

1) Great mobility

• Not only his overall speed, but the fluidity and sinister way he moves leaves room for some creativity and craftiness from the player for mindgames.

2) Crawling/low crouch

• Has the option to crawl and crouch low, which can also be used to duck under a number of moves listed here: link here

3) Projectile

• Has a projectile, even if it may not be amazing, the uncharged ones are an option for mid-range pressure, which, benefits him to make use of his dash grab. Which…

4) Dash grab

• Unlike his standing/pivot grab, his dash grab has a respectable frame: 9
• Has a killing throw in up throw, though a bit late (165% ish, varies between rage and character weight)

5) Back/Up air

• Multi-hit moves that can be great for juggling, pressure, and set up into strings or combos. Also does not require as much commitment as his other aerials. Can stage spike with back air for gimping tools. Which…

6) Hydro Pump/Up B

• Can be used for gimping
• Can be used for stage control/disrupting your opponent’s momentum
• Is versatile in the directions/angles you can use, allowing room for mix ups

7) Lesser extent decent options

• Jab is one of his better close up options, though cannot be overly relied on, especially on shield. Mix ups such as jab 1 and/or 2 into a followup move can possibly set you up for either more damage or a kill move. A classic example: jab 1 > down tilt > upsmash
• Down tilt is great for setting up followups, though you have to be rather close to your opponent
• Dash attack can also be nice for setting up followups, and the sliding animation he does can actually evade certain moves that might go over his head.

Edgeguarding

Aside from Hydro Pump gimps, B-air pressure/stage spikes, and F-air, he has other options to attempt to edgeguard with.

• Shadow Sneak off-stage can net him a surprisingly early kill if well-spaced and used to bait an opponent's air dodge.
• D-air can meteor spike for those who love a bit of risk/reward
• Charging Water Shuriken near the edge can force your opponent to air dodge or recover low, limiting their options.

 

[Lavani]

This "reverse DACUS" (godawful and inaccurate name btw) thing is just the crawl momentum shifting trick that Diddy and Bowser have been using since release, no? Something about crawling backwards at a certain angle when landing instantly reversing your momentum, those two in particular abuse it well with Monkey Flip and Dash Slash. Shame we can't crawl after Hydro Pump...but yeah, it should work with any crawl.

 

[mimgrim]

Hydro Pump should not be listed as a weakness when the weakness is simple player error and not an actual weakness of the move.

Keep on Shadow Sneaking by mistake? Git gud. That's not the move's fault. That's the player's fault.

Can't properly align to the ledge? Git gud and don't hit the wall. Player's fault for not having enough accuracy to aim the move correctly.

 

[FullMoon]

@ Mocha You skipped the 2 in Strenghts, sis =P