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Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

Ludiloco

Ludiloco

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Went to a tourney today, had to leave after pools but went 4-2 using mostly ninja

Highlights include a hydro pump gimp on a captain falcon where the people behind me went nuts, an up air spike down smash kill, and of course a few up air chases into the blast zone
 
Kace Mono

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Went to a tournament on sunday and managed to grab 13th out of 79 entrants. Pools were hype but the winners bracket was so intense. i got knocked into losers by a Donkey Kong using Custom punch (the wind one) and recovery (the windy twirly one). I then got knocked out by a Palutena. Both players went to get 4th and 3rd respectively. I understand what i could have done to secure my victory but i choked. Sad to see i was the only Greninja main there. In pools everyone was so afraid of the Hydro Pump Shot and being able to punish rolls with the taunt felt amazing especially when you can USmash or Uair and spike into a killmove.
 
Gunla

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Ludiloco

Ludiloco

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A very sad day if true. I thought he could've taken top 5 with Ninja.

Honestly I think customs nicely benefit Ninja with shifting shuriken being a nice upgrade over standard, so I don't really see his point. None of the others are truly upgrades (exploding counter is decent but doesn't have the kill power original Sub does) over his standard specials so maybe that's what he means?
 
Coffee™

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Liberation said:
It seems that he's playing Pikachu when customs are on, primarily.
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Ah ok. I don't blame him. ESAM showed me how ******** Pika can be with that move over the weekend. Jab lock to death at 40% al day.....lol

Ludiloco said:
A very sad day if true. I thought he could've taken top 5 with Ninja.

Honestly I think customs nicely benefit Ninja with shifting shuriken being a nice upgrade over standard, so I don't really see his point. None of the others are truly upgrades (exploding counter is decent but doesn't have the kill power original Sub does) over his standard specials so maybe that's what he means?
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Shifting isn't even a direct upgrade. There are a lot of scenarios where default is better due to it being faster and more versatile. Amsa's right when he says his customs don't really do much to change his meta.

Also PPL ARE SLEEPING ON STAGNANT SHURIKEN!!!!!
 
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Ludiloco

Ludiloco

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Not a direct upgrade, but the kill setups are nice. I'd probably take it over standard in most matchups where Greninja gets outcamped anyway.

I think stagnant can be good for the same reason Samus's slow charge shot can be good. But it's a bit trickier to use.
 
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mimgrim

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I see Shifting Shuriken as a direct upgrade to Water Shuriken in most MUs honestly. If the Shurikens in general had less end-lag on them (I guess 1.0.0 Shuriken?) then yea, I would say it is definitely a trade off between the two but as it is now I see Shifting as better in most cases.

Stagnant is more of a trap move and has potential, I just don't see the reason to give up a ranged projectile (be it Shifting or WS) for it when Greninja already has good trap moves on him. It's def not bad, I just see it as out preformed by the other 2 Specials.
 
Coffee™

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Ludiloco said:
Not a direct upgrade, but the kill setups are nice. I'd probably take it over standard in most matchups where Greninja gets outcamped anyway.

I think stagnant can be good for the same reason Samus's slow charge shot can be good. But it's a bit trickier to use.
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In matchups where Greninja get's outcamped with (W)S he will be outcamped even worse with (Sh)S due to it's slower speed.

mimgrim said:
I see Shifting Shuriken as a direct upgrade to Water Shuriken in most MUs honestly. If the Shurikens in general had less end-lag on them (I guess 1.0.0 Shuriken?) then yea, I would say it is definitely a trade off between the two but as it is now I see Shifting as better in most cases.

Stagnant is more of a trap move and has potential, I just don't see the reason to give up a ranged projectile (be it Shifting or WS) for it when Greninja already has good trap moves on him. It's def not bad, I just see it as out preformed by the other 2 Specials.
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What good "trap" moves are you referring to?

Also as far as Stagnant Shuriken goes it really complement's Greninja's kit more than you might think intially. Greninja is a b&p character that places emphasizes on his ability to zone out other characters. Water Shuriken is good for forcing approaches amongst some other things but it isn't really useful at the zone ranges Greninja prefers to play in.

Stagnant on the other hand is a tool that does focus on those ranges. It's multi-hitting properties coupled with it's size and easy followups make for a very potent defensive and offensive option when used properly.

I'm not going to outright say it's a better move for him than any of the other shurikens as it's going to be quite different in it's applications, but imo the move is severely underrated and adds a bit of dimension to the character in way that none of his other moves can replicate.
 
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Ludiloco

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Coffee™ said:
In matchups where Greninja get's outcamped with (W)S he will be outcamped even worse with (Sh)S due to it's slower speed.
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That's my point. Why would I try to camp a character who is better at it? In those situations we are forced to approach, so why bother with shurikens? I like Shift better because you can read a landing or unsafe move with it and get a free follow up. I also think grounded B-reverse (or is it PP shuriken I'm seeing people use?) is going to be a very valuable tech for Shift users and can result in a lot of easy kill setups.

Again, I don't see it as a direct upgrade all the time. Mostly I find it to be preference, and I think Shift is the most valuable for the way I play the Ninja.
 
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FullMoon

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Shifting Shuriken is great for dealing with characters like R.O.B and Bowser Jr who otherwise have things that completely block the shurikens (Gyro and Mechakoopas) so at least with Shifting Shuriken our neutral b isn't completely useless against them.

Stagnant Shuriken seems better for MUs where Greninja can't use shurikens all that well, like Sheik and Fox since most of the time they're going to stay close to you, but I really don't think the trade-off is worth it. I've tried to give it a chance but eeeeeh... It's pretty underwhelming.
 
Coffee™

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Ludiloco said:
That's my point. Why would I try to camp a character who is better at it? In those situations we are forced to approach, so why bother with shurikens? I like Shift better because you can read a landing or unsafe move with it and get a free follow up. I also think grounded B-reverse (or is it PP shuriken I'm seeing people use?) is going to be a very valuable tech for Shift users and can result in a lot of easy kill setups.

Again, I don't see it as a direct upgrade all the time. Mostly I find it to be preference, and I think Shift is the most valuable for the way I play the Ninja.
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Projectile wise and factoring in customs Greninja gets outcamped by Shiek, Olimar, R.O.B, Mario, Samus, Rosa and maaaybe custom ZSS. Out of all of these. Shiek, Rosa and maybe R.O.B are the only ones that can negate default Shuriken to the point that you may not want to use it all that much.

Shifting Shuriken still tends to be harder to use well in those matchups albeit Olimar from what I've seen as the added lag leaves you quite a bit more open to these character's camp games.

The way I'm looking at it currently is:

• Shifting is better for setting up kills and on reads, worse if you need to force an approach
• Default is better at applying pressure from a distance whilst being able to remain fairly mobile.
• Stagnant better for applying pressure closer to Greninja, worse at applying it further away or to force an approach.

All three are as you said, mostly preference. However, Stagnant is the only one which allows one to significantly change the way the character is played.

FullMoon said:
Stagnant Shuriken seems better for MUs where Greninja can't use shurikens all that well, like Sheik and Fox since most of the time they're going to stay close to you, but I really don't think the trade-off is worth it. I've tried to give it a chance but eeeeeh... It's pretty underwhelming.
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Yea there's definitely matchups where one will shine more than the other but what I'm kinda getting at is that Stagnant Shuriken shouldn't really be compared so much to the other Shuriken's as it is a very different move (a very good one at that) and when used it forces the character to be played somewhat differently.
 
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Ekans647

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This is why I don't want customs to be legal (for now at least). Already complex MU's become even more complex and makes Smash require more knowledge than reasonable.
 
Coffee™

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Ekans647 said:
This is why I don't want customs to be legal (for now at least). Already complex MU's become even more complex and makes Smash require more knowledge than reasonable.
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Gotta adapt bro...

mimgrim said:
Shadow Sneak and Dtilt mostly, with customs I could also see Exploding Attack added to the list.
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I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "trap" when you refer to those moves. If you mean they set up traps then I agree about Dtilt. Shadow Sneak, not so much but what Stagnant does as far as setting up traps and baits is quite different from those moves.
 
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Jaguar360

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There was a pretty nice Greninja on VGBootcamp's stream. Finished off with a Hydro gimp on the Ness. Beautiful.
 
Ludiloco

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I'm really realizing the true power of Hydro Gimp er... I mean, Hydro Pump. Randomly messing around online and in tourneys with it I've gotten two or three kills off the top with it after a up throw + up air connected but didn't finish the job. Can't remember where I got the idea to try it but it can be really effective as it's hard to block in the air.

I've also gimped about 30 Captain Falcons lol, that matchup is so ridiculously jank for him
 
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Funkermonster

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Been playing a lot with my 3 favorite characters lately, I dig the blue guys: :4greninja::4sonic::4megaman:.

Would :4sonic: or :4megaman: make a better secondary for Ninja? I like both and I'm being real indecisive.
 
Ludiloco

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Honestly they're both really good characters and you'd be picking between A/B tier pretty much

I fully believe Greninja does not require a secondary as most characters he loses to are either uncommon or characters most of the cast lose to (Sheik and Diddy). However, I think Mega Man would be a better allocation of practice time.

Sonic and Greninja are very similar in that they're super fast and aerial combo based. Sonic camps much more effectively, Greninja goes in much more effectively. However, Mega Man beats even Sonic in camping and provides a very strong ranged game that neither of the aforementioned characters have.

So, Mega Man is going to cover Greninja's weaknesses more effectively than Sonic, who tends to have the same weaknesses.
 
Jaguar360

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Pika Kong said:
Been playing a lot with my 3 favorite characters lately, I dig the blue guys: :4greninja::4sonic::4megaman:.

Would :4sonic: or :4megaman: make a better secondary for Ninja? I like both and I'm being real indecisive.
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I think Sonic might be better just for the Sheik and Fox matchups. Greninja and Sonic seem to complement each other pretty well on paper.

You could always have two secondaries though (I have...more secondaries than most people), but I'm guessing that you're determined to stick with one main and one submain
 
Lavani

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Jaguar said my thoughts; I see Sonic helping with more MUs than Mega Man.

But, like, Mega Man is cooler than Sonic so you should secondary him anyway. :230:
 
Greninja'd

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Well, I went to my first tournament. I won a game in pools, but lost a game to Ganon probably due to recklessness. I got sent to losers bracket and won a match but I lost to Sanic. >_>
 
elusiveTranscendent

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MunsterMash said:
That'd be awesome! I just picked up Greninja from using Fox for the past 4 months and I would love to see all the different play styles there are. So what's your skype?
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Try searching this up first
◥θ┴θ◤ Kyle (eT, Elu, elusiveTranscendent)
 
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bc1910

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Greninja'd said:
Well, I went to my first tournament. I won a game in pools, but lost a game to Ganon probably due to recklessness. I got sent to losers bracket and won a match but I lost to Sanic. >_>
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That's a shame, I hate losing to Sonic. I think he could be Greninja's worst MU, his long range punishes are probably the best in the game and Spin Dash being a travelling hitbox really messes with Greninja's mobility. I think this MU could improve in the future because Greninja has some nice options against Sonic up close, mostly because Sonic's range is still quite bad and Greninja has excellent range on his smashes and Fair/Bair. Getting in and staying in can be tricky though.
 
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Greninja'd

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TehEpicRyuga said:
Calling a nerf Greninja patch after Mewtwo is released

That is indeed a fine avi! Heard Mega Metagross and Giratina are getting banned funny enough
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ait is Giratina being suspect tested by Smogon?
 
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