The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Naucitos]

Sala, are you saying that 'reliable' does not mean 'reliable'? because that doesen't make much sense to me...
Also, i don't think ganons upsmash would be a reliable counter, where the hell did you get that from?

 

[brinboy789]

brinboy, posts like this contribute nothing, either make a new statement or let the argument stand on its own.

i know. i stated something incorrect, but noticed it after i posted, and had nothing to say, so i had to say that :\

 

[Mocha19]

How did this thread go from Meta Knight to Sonic? lol

 

[Naucitos]

Because kid thinks that MK being able to wreck sonic means that he should be banned, and is the basis of his argument

 

[Mocha19]

Well.. there are plenty of characters in fighting games that do that.. In Melee, Sheik had a lot of HUGE advantages in her favor along with Marth as well. They didn't get banned. I'm sure there's more to his argument than that, but that's my input on it.

 

[Ken Neth]

Because kid thinks that MK being able to wreck sonic means that he should be banned, and is the basis of his argument

No he doesn't... You obviously haven't been paying attention to most of this debate. He has given tons of examples and reasons for why he feels meta should be banned. And from what I've seen this has been his only example where he's brought up sonic in them.

And it got to sonic cause he gave a list of characters that would be tourney viable without MK and people chose to focus on sonic from that list.

 

[salaboB]

Sala, are you saying that 'reliable' does not mean 'reliable'? because that doesen't make much sense to me...
Also, i don't think ganons upsmash would be a reliable counter, where the hell did you get that from?

Ganon's upsmash is listed in the thread for moves that get through the tornado. Thus it's reliable when used against the tornado.

It is not practical.

 

[brinboy789]

Ganon's upsmash is listed in the thread for moves that get through the tornado. Thus it's reliable when used against the tornado.

It is not practical.

the thread listed the "difficulty" of cutting through a tornado with the attack. im pretty sure the usmash would be one of the hardest >_>

 

[Naucitos]

I was being facetious, i understand that kid is using sonic because he knows the most, as i talk about yoshi because i know the most about him, just because its in a thread doesen't mean its a good idea, the thread is supposed to be an exhaustive collection of what does what, not everything thats reliable. However, we need to keep in mind that just because MK beats sonic does not mean he should be banned, and thats all this thread has become recently

 

[da K.I.D.]

Because kid thinks that MK being able to wreck sonic means that he should be banned, and is the basis of his argument

are you even listening to your self?

No he doesn't... You obviously haven't been paying attention to most of this debate. He has given tons of examples and reasons for why he feels meta should be banned. And from what I've seen this has been his only example where he's brought up sonic in them.

And it got to sonic cause he gave a list of characters that would be tourney viable without MK and people chose to focus on sonic from that list.

STFU nau, I specifically choose not to bring up my character and my experiences in this thread for this reason. the only reason we are talking about sonic now, is because you asked for examples and i gave you pit ROB and sonic. you (naucitos, and bboy) didnt think pit and ROB were valid, and than decided to make assumptions about a character that:
1: i know better than just about anybody and,
2. you know absolutely nothing about.
thats how we got to talking about sonic.
because with the knowledge i have on yoshi (ie. not much) i can say that you only have a chaingrab on him and thats the only thing that makes it close to even, and without MK to make him look WAYYYY better than he is, yoshi will start sucking again.

but i dont say stuff like that because i know its faulty logic. dont talk unless you know what you are talking about

Well.. there are plenty of characters in fighting games that do that.. In Melee, Sheik had a lot of HUGE advantages in her favor along with Marth as well. They didn't get banned. I'm sure there's more to his argument than that, but that's my input on it.

this is the logic thought process for a reasonable person.
but the thing about this is thatin any other fighter, there isnt 1 character thats leagues above everyone else, theres a group. thats why the Mk is bannable, because hes leagues above the rest of the characters and stifles the competitive aspects of the game

Ganon's upsmash is listed in the thread for moves that get through the tornado. Thus it's reliable when used against the tornado.

It is not practical.

you act like you dont get it...

 

[brinboy789]

STFU nau, I specifically choose not to bring up my character and my experiences in this thread for this reason. the only reason we are talking about sonic now, is because you asked for examples and i gave you pit ROB and sonic. you (naucitos, and bboy) didnt think pit and ROB were valid, and than decided to make assumptions about a character that:
1: i know better than just about anybody and,
2. you know absolutely nothing about.
thats how we got to talking about sonic.
because with the knowledge i have on yoshi (ie. not much) i can say that you only have a chaingrab on him and thats the only thing that makes it close to even, and without MK to make him look WAYYYY better than he is, yoshi will start sucking again.

idc if you know sonic better then anybody. the fact remains that HE HAS MUCH MORE **** MATCHUPS THEN JUST MK, and banning MK isnt going to make him more viable if more chars can just **** him. you could just ban, say TL (from your sig), because TL has a 70-30 on him. 70-30 and up would be a **** matchup.

FYI, yoshis metagame has been drastically advancing >_>. grab releases as a really noticeable one, and i don really go on yoshi forums but a saw a trick with yoshis D_B that looks like kirby's glitch with stone on pictochat.

 

[Tenki]

you could just ban, say TL (from your sig), because TL has a 70-30 on him. 70-30 and up would be a **** matchup.

You do realize that his sig is a joke post. . . right? It pokes fun at how, in 'on-paper' discussions, we just throw away the 'speed' and 'cancellability' part of Sonic's game (which can be a MAJOR factor in real gameplay) so we're basically lying to them when it comes to matchup discussions. so we "might as well" just say "yeah, Sonic is at huge diadvantage lulzlulzuzlll"

Besides, in the MK side of things, I think Sonic is listed down as a 20-80.

...lol.

 

[Mocha19]

FYI, yoshis metagame has been drastically advancing >_>. grab releases as a really noticeable one, and i don really go on yoshi forums but a saw a trick with yoshis D_B that looks like kirby's glitch with stone on pictochat.

Isn't that why there are some MK-banned tourneys right now? To see if the metagames of other characters will advance and see if there's more diversity in tourney winnings?

From what I've seen so far, some of the best players are still winning tourneys even without MK. There was a tourney here in N.O. where Lee still won over everyone using Lucario, so it didn't really change much. There needs to be a big tourney where most of the pros can attend where MK is banned and see what happens. I'd rather that not happen, but at least we could see what would happen and be a step closer to finding out for sure whether or not things will change.

 

[Ken Neth]

idc if you know sonic better then anybody. the fact remains that HE HAS MUCH MORE **** MATCHUPS THEN JUST MK, and banning MK isnt going to make him more viable if more chars can just **** him. you could just ban, say TL (from your sig), because TL has a 70-30 on him. 70-30 and up would be a **** matchup.

K, I think you miss the part where HE ISN'T USING SONIC AS HIS REASON FOR WANTING MK BANNED. (see, I can type in all caps too ) But seriously, read the whole post before attacking him. The only reason we're talking about sonic is cause others brought him up and KID has been avoiding using Sonic in this thread for a reason.

Also, you should be able to realize that hi sig is a joke...

 

[brinboy789]

You do realize that his sig is a joke post. . . right? It pokes fun at how, in 'on-paper' discussions, we just throw away the 'speed' and 'cancellability' part of Sonic's game (which can be a MAJOR factor in real gameplay) so we're basically lying to them when it comes to matchup discussions. so we "might as well" just say "yeah, Sonic is at huge diadvantage lulzlulzuzlll"

Besides, in the MK side of things, I think Sonic is listed down as a 20-80.

...lol.

checked ivaneva's matchup thread, sonic has 20 bad matchups O.o

on DanGr's chart, sonic is barely filled in -.-. so from the only matchup chart we have, which doesnt specify whether its a **** matchup or just an advantage, sonic has 20 bad matchups. pretty unviable if you ask me

K, I think you miss the part where HE ISN'T USING SONIC AS HIS REASON FOR WANTING MK BANNED. (see, I can type in all caps too ) But seriously, read the whole post before attacking him. The only reason we're talking about sonic is cause others brought him up and KID has been avoiding using Sonic in this thread for a reason.

Also, you should be able to realize that hi sig is a joke...

i wasnt attacking him. and sarcasm fails online :3. and he said that MK made sonic, pit and rob unviable. so i disagree, especially with the sonic one.

 

[BarakuDragon]

I don't see a reason of banning mk, there's never been a char ban b4 why now? What cause he's a good char? So what, it happens, if someone's good with mk then there good with him, don't mean you should ban a char because people are too good on him. He's not god he can be beat, may take new strat's to come up with to beat him or what not, but I really don't see why he should be banned just because of how op he may be.

 

[Tenki]

checked ivaneva's matchup thread, sonic has 20 bad matchups O.o

on DanGr's chart, sonic is barely filled in -.-. so from the only matchup chart we have, which doesnt specify whether its a **** matchup or just an advantage, sonic has 20 bad matchups. pretty unviable if you ask me

Most of that was filled in like... in the first 1-2 months of Brawl.

His matchup chart is also quite tainted with personal opinion and experience. It took until VERY recently for the MK-Yoshi to be turned 'neutral' or whatever.

DanGr's matchup chart will be more accurate as it will not only represent whole communities' collective experiences, but contain far less bias and represent the current state of the metagame.

 

[Mocha19]

checked ivaneva's matchup thread, sonic has 20 bad matchups O.o

on DanGr's chart, sonic is barely filled in -.-. so from the only matchup chart we have, which doesnt specify whether its a **** matchup or just an advantage, sonic has 20 bad matchups. pretty unviable if you ask me

Aren't those charts supposed to be highly innaccurate anyway?

 

[Tenki]

Aren't those charts supposed to be highly innaccurate anyway?

DanGr's will be filled in as community matchup threads agree with each other.

If they disagree (like, 60:40 vs 50:50), then it won't be filled in until that's resolved.

It will be more accurate/representative of the matchups as they currently exist.

 

[brinboy789]

Aren't those charts supposed to be highly innaccurate anyway?

Most of that was filled in like... in the first 1-2 months of Brawl.

His matchup chart is also quite tainted with personal opinion and experience. It took until VERY recently for the MK-Yoshi to be turned 'neutral' or whatever.

DanGr's matchup chart will be more accurate as it will not only represent whole communities' collective experiences, but contain far less bias and represent the current state of the metagame.

i know, but its the only source i have . and Dangr's chart isnt filled in on sonics part except for like 3 chars

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. i cant believe that there are people on this site that think a 0-steak combo is a real, legitamate thing...
2. most matchup threads are very inaccurate, if you give me the links right now i would be able to walk in there and find something very wrong right off the bat.
3. if you love my sig so much, look at the bottom, and than go back and read tenkis post

 

[Mocha19]

Ok I did just see DanGr's chart. It seems to be a good work in progress now since I last checked it. Definitely better than that other guy's.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't see a reason of banning mk, there's never been a char ban b4 why now? What cause he's a good char? So what, it happens, if someone's good with mk then there good with him, don't mean you should ban a char because people are too good on him. He's not god he can be beat, may take new strat's to come up with to beat him or what not, but I really don't see why he should be banned just because of how op he may be.

you dont see why an overpowered character should be banned?

what??

are you serious?

 

[brinboy789]

1. i cant believe that there are people on this site that think a 0-steak combo is a real, legitamate thing...
2. most matchup threads are very inaccurate, if you give me the links right now i would be able to walk in there and find something very wrong right off the bat.
3. if you love my sig so much, look at the bottom, and than go back and read tenkis post

1. who believes that?
2. its the only source i have.
3. sarcasm fails online :3

 

[lordXblade]

are you even listening to your self?but the thing about this is thatin any other fighter, there isnt 1 character thats leagues above everyone else, theres a group. thats why the Mk is bannable, because hes leagues above the rest of the characters and stifles the competitive aspects of the game

Do you play other games? Have you read my posts? Do you know how much of an advantage Magneto has over the entire cast of Marvel vs. Capcom 2? Do you have any idea how insanely good Chun-Li is in Third Strike? Or how broken Blanka is in CvS2? Banning a character should be the result of imbalance to the point where it is completely and totally impossible to beat that character in any setting, using any strategy, with anybody. The only character in the history of competitive fighting games that has been banned is ST Akuma, because he fit those criteria. It was absolutely 100% impossible to beat him with anybody if the Akuma was half decent. MK is not ST Akuma. MK is beatable.

It's a fighting game. Higher tiered characters are gonna have blow away matches against lower tiered characters, but that doesn't mean those characters should be banned. In fact, the Brawl community seems to be the only community not dedicated to evening out these bad match-ups. In Melee, you had Hugs, Ka-Master, and Mango ****** everyone without using top tier, and they could beat the characters that, on paper, blow them out. In Third Strike there's a japanese Hugo player (Hugo's bottom tier) that can take on and, on occasion, demolish the best Yuns and Chuns.

If you are hell bent on doing well with Sonic, dedicate yourself to him. Study MK until you know more about him than an MK player, and then study the matchup until you know more about it than would seem healthy. You will beat MKs if you do this, I assure you.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thank you, Naucitos. The Jigglypuff board has this thread up saying that MK shouldn't be banned because he takes care of a lot of her problematic fights. That type of argument makes sense to me.

We already know that MK's presence reshapes the competative scene. Snake for example, owes #2 placement to MK.

That said, it's a meta-analysis, and the sheer number of tournaments taken by MK ultimately makes everyone less viable. But certain characters have it worse off them others.

p.s. on paper sonic loses to just about everyone, hence my sig...
but in practice sonic does a lot better than what the matchup is on paper, because sonic has many more options in many situaitions than most characters, but on paper alot of those things that we do to win is just dismissed as "mind-games" and "player skill" neither of which can effectively be included on an on paper matchup discussion

Theorycraft better.

As I explained many times, some characters are inherently advantaged in the department of mindgames. It's not just player ability, it's having multiple option (safe is better) with discrete counters. It's about ability to punish a missed prediction well.

If you force your opponent to predict your next move, and punish them if they predict wrong, doesn't an increased likelyhood of failing to predict improve your ability in the area? Doesn't fewer options or no options for your opponent to punish if they predict correctly improve your options in that area?

Mindgames inherently should NOT be taken into account, but a character's advantage in that department should.


So if a character has some attribute that makes them reliably do better in practice then on paper, get better paper. Quantify the attribute.

 

[Mocha19]

2. most matchup threads are very inaccurate, if you give me the links right now i would be able to walk in there and find something very wrong right off the bat.

Too correct. I can't tell you how often I avoid them..

 

[Tenki]

Theorycraft better.

As I explained many times, some characters are inherently advantaged in the department of mindgames. It's not just player ability, it's having multiple option (safe is better) with discrete counters. It's about ability to punish a missed prediction well.

If you force your opponent to predict your next move, and punish them if they predict wrong, doesn't an increased likelyhood of failing to predict improve your ability in the area? Doesn't fewer options or no options for your opponent to punish if they predict correctly improve your options in that area?

Mindgames inherently should NOT be taken into account, but a character's advantage in that department should.


So if a character has some attribute that makes them reliably do better in practice then on paper, get better paper. Quantify the attribute.

Alot of people have trouble figuring out the nuances between the things you just described, so muh :[

 

[Anther]

Too random XD.

 

[salaboB]

Banning a character should be the result of imbalance to the point where it is completely and totally impossible to beat that character in any setting, using any strategy, with anybody.

Why?

Spoiler

10whyisthisopiniontheonlyonethatcounts

 

[Mocha19]

If you are hell bent on doing well with Sonic, dedicate yourself to him. Study MK until you know more about him than an MK player, and then study the matchup until you know more about it than would seem healthy. You will beat MKs if you do this, I assure you.

This doesn't always work, especially in this game. I did this with Zelda in Melee in order to beat the Top 4 and for a while it worked, but then eventually they started learning more as far as their metagames were going while I believe I pushed out every last bit of potential that I possibly could with her. There are just characters that have more potential and more advantages against lower-tiered characters. That's why they're top tiers in the first place. You could make the matches more even and win more by doing this, but it's still incredibly hard to do so. It feels more like work than playing a game sometimes.

I do not think he should be banned.. Not yet at least, but if something isn't found out for sure soon and more people leave the community, then maybe it would be the best course of action. I think it will probably make it to a Guilty Gear level sort of way. Most of the people will indeed play with MK though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Do you play other games? Have you read my posts? 1. Do you know how much of an advantage Magneto has over the entire cast of Marvel vs. Capcom 2? 2. Do you have any idea how insanely good Chun-Li is in Third Strike? 3. Or how broken Blanka is in CvS2? 4. Banning a character should be the result of imbalance to the point where it is completely and totally impossible to beat that character in any setting, using any strategy, with anybody. The only character in the history of competitive fighting games that has been banned is ST Akuma, because he fit those criteria. It was absolutely 100% impossible to beat him with anybody if the Akuma was half decent. MK is not ST Akuma. MK is beatable.

It's a fighting game. Higher tiered characters are gonna have blow away matches against lower tiered characters, but that doesn't mean those characters should be banned. 5. In fact, the Brawl community seems to be the only community not dedicated to evening out these bad match-ups. 6. In Melee, you had Hugs, Ka-Master, and Mango ****** everyone without using top tier, and they could beat the characters that, on paper, blow them out. In Third Strike there's a japanese Hugo player (Hugo's bottom tier) that can take on and, on occasion, demolish the best Yuns and Chuns.

7. If you are hell bent on doing well with Sonic, dedicate yourself to him. Study MK until you know more about him than an MK player, and then study the matchup until you know more about it than would seem healthy. You will beat MKs if you do this, I assure you.

1. storm cable and sentinal were in the same class as magneto, despite teh fact that magneto was the best.
2. from what i hear, Yun is better.
3. i cant remember exactly which characters are top tier in that game, but i know that there was more at teh top than just blanka, wait bison was up there in his class right?
4. banning a character should happen when a character is unnessicarily stagnating and centralising the metagame, you mindset is wrong in this case. but when you think that way, i can see why you wouldnt want the ban
5. M2K has a tips vs MK thread. dojo has a lets beat Mk thread, and specifically the sonic boards (among other, im sure) have specifically a Sonic vs shuttle loop and tornado thread. dont talk, when you have no idea what you are saying. the fact that we are all putting so much effort into beating this one character is one of the reasons for his ban in the first place
6. you forgot G-reg. and in your SF example, i can confidently say that this is because characters are much more balenced in SF than brawl. herrgo its much easier to win with hugo than it is with captain falcon
7. uhhh... i kinda am. i already do do those things you said and i DO know MK better than most people. I am sick and tired of people being under the mindset that once you learn more about Mk youll realise he isnt broken.
cus most of the time the people that take the time to learn all that they can about MK end up coming to the conclusion that he truly is broken. Overswarm is the most easily recognised example of this. or do i need to refer you to the NUMEROUS posts from myself DRaGZ and salaboB in the threads i mentioned i mentioned in number 5

 

[beamswordsman]

I just got back and now I'm lurking but this just seems to be going in circles. It just progresses into "Point-Counterpoint-Counterpoint-Counterpoint..."- the argument is simply very indecisive. I can't add much to the discussion and have never been to a tourney, but its seems there are two conclusions:

"Metaknght has the potential to destroy the metagame/competitive Brawl."
"A Metaknight ban this early is too soon."

I'm sorry I can't add much, and since I don't have any knowledge I won't vote either.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So if a character has some attribute that makes them reliably do better in practice then on paper, get better paper. Quantify the attribute.

im taking this to the sonic boards, this is good stuff

 

[salaboB]

im taking this to the sonic boards, this is good stuff

The difficulty for Sonic seems to be playstyle significantly impacts it. Like you said you do okay vs. Olimar, but not Snake -- and others do okay against Snake but not Olimar. So how are you going to do a matchup based on playstyle?

It's like trying to say that Lucario loses to MK because Azen had to switch for one MK ditto against someone, when against more skilled MK players he was still better off as Lucario. Going to be hard to do.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i want them to see the concept and realise that we can put into words about how sonic does so well against people when he is not supposed to.

i would rather try than have to adopt the mindset of my sig just because i dont know how ot accurately portray the point of view that i am coming from

 

[adumbrodeus]

The difficulty for Sonic seems to be playstyle significantly impacts it. Like you said you do okay vs. Olimar, but not Snake -- and others do okay against Snake but not Olimar. So how are you going to do a matchup based on playstyle?

It's like trying to say that Lucario loses to MK because Azen had to switch for one MK ditto against someone, when against more skilled MK players he was still better off as Lucario. Going to be hard to do.

Because we're talking about the top of the metagame. If you're winning against one character, but not another that have the same match-up against sonic, then you're more skilled at playing in the playstyle suited to one match-up then others, but at the top of the metagame, a sonic player should be able to transition effortlessly into all these different playstyles.


Match-ups must be done based on attributes. It does us all a disservice to craft theory that is inapplicable to real life ESPECIALLY when we know what the error is.

 

[salaboB]

Because we're talking about the top of the metagame. If you're winning against one character, but not another that have the same match-up against sonic, then you're more skilled at playing in the playstyle suited to one match-up then others, but at the top of the metagame, a sonic player should be able to transition effortlessly into all these different playstyles.

Right, but when player style figures so heavily into it then you're going to have a much harder time identifying which ones are just because the one fighting against Sonic falls for that particular strategy, and which character actually can't answer Sonic's approaches as well.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that the style-based nature of it is going to make it far more difficult to determine accurately.

Edit: Best way to go about it (Most accurate results) may be to figure out which ways Sonic can approach someone, and then which ways they can answer each approach. The less approaches that can be dealt with the same way, the better off Sonic is in that matchup. Something similar could be done for MK, but I bet you'll find that in pretty much every situation MK has too many approaches for his opponents to predict against >.>

 

[Naucitos]

kid, i said i was being facetious when i said that you obviously thought he should be banned because MK beats him. I was joking. I just got out of class, now i'm going to go read the last 2 pages
EDIT: Glad theres a bit less inane banter in here now, someone said that banning MK is for the good of the metagame, because the metagame is shifting to accomodate him, however, a few months ago, there were threads about how to get around snakes boost smashing, and his grenades, and before THAT there were threads about getting around pit, yet neither of those were bannable (No, i'm not saying in a few months MK is going to be crap because we're going to find out he sucks.) People adapting and learning part of a character because hes played often is normal, for the sheer fact that hes played often. If MK gets banned and all the people that played him because he was top tier start playing snake, because hes the next highest, the results will be similar, but snake still won't deserve a ban.
You might say "Snake has more disadvantages" but the majority of people are arguing that mk should be banned because of tourney results, the more people PLAY a character the more that character will WIN. I'm not sure whether people think that he should be banned because too many people play him

 

[St. Viers]

1. storm cable and sentinal were in the same class as magneto, despite teh fact that magneto was the best.
2. from what i hear, Yun is better.
3. i cant remember exactly which characters are top tier in that game, but i know that there was more at teh top than just blanka, wait bison was up there in his class right?
4. banning a character should happen when a character is unnessicarily stagnating and centralising the metagame, you mindset is wrong in this case. but when you think that way, i can see why you wouldnt want the ban
5. M2K has a tips vs MK thread. dojo has a lets beat Mk thread, and specifically the sonic boards (among other, im sure) have specifically a Sonic vs shuttle loop and tornado thread. dont talk, when you have no idea what you are saying. the fact that we are all putting so much effort into beating this one character is one of the reasons for his ban in the first place
6. you forgot G-reg. and in your SF example, i can confidently say that this is because characters are much more balenced in SF than brawl. herrgo its much easier to win with hugo than it is with captain falcon
7. uhhh... i kinda am. i already do do those things you said and i DO know MK better than most people. I am sick and tired of people being under the mindset that once you learn more about Mk youll realise he isnt broken.
cus most of the time the people that take the time to learn all that they can about MK end up coming to the conclusion that he truly is broken. Overswarm is the most easily recognised example of this. or do i need to refer you to the NUMEROUS posts from myself DRaGZ and salaboB in the threads i mentioned i mentioned in number 5

1. Snake is the same level as MK, MK is just the best
2. Yun has better matchups (all advantaged), but chunli is still considered better, because she has Better matchups against many of the people, and only one disadvantaged matchup, against Yun.
3. There are more top tier chars than MK. Your side supposedly gave up MK>9000 argument hundreds of pages ago.
4. He is also ADVANCING the metagame, he has been the catalyst to exploring grab release uses, for example. Until people run out of things to learn, HE is not stagnating the meta-game, but player's reaction to him is.
5. Except that by answering those questions, we are progressing the Metagame.
7. He is the best character. This does *not* mean he is broken in such a way that he merits a ban.

as for unviable characters
its been documented that Mk is one of the worst 3 matches for half of the playable characters in the game, literally

From awhile back, and I'm not sure if yuna replied, but this doesn't answer Yuna's question. His question was which char's would actually become more viable w/o metaknight.