The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[adumbrodeus]

Do they? I was pretty sure that the two threads that attempt to discuss it gave a slight, but not very big, advantage to MK. Of course, they're all eternally old because the Falco boards are mostly dead, but still. I don't think Falco boards claim an advantage on MK.

See for yourself:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202

If that's not the overall opinion, it would definately have to be a signifigant opinion within the community.

That would actually be interesting if they did. Come to think of it, I haven't seen many high-profile MK/Falco tournament clashes (though I'm sure there have to be some). I'd still give the match to MK (ESPECIALLY when he gets Falco off the stage), but I'd like to be proven wrong about it.

No, it's incorrect.

It's 60-40, and really plays a great deal like the marth match-up. Only MK is better at offense against Falco, whereas Marth can't really be chaingrabbed. They even out.

 

[Overswarm]

Falco gets destroyed by Metaknight. >_>

Medicore Falcos can do well against mediocre MKs, but once MKs stop running into grabs and start edgeguarding Falco well, it is gg.

 

[Dojo]

Falco gets destroyed by Metaknight. >_>

As does everyone else.

 

[stingers]

From the man himself.

MK is to Snake as Akuma is to Chun Li.

GG Brawl.

 

[kr3wman]

From the man himself.

MK is to Snake as Akuma is to Chun Li.

GG Brawl.

MK doesn't 100:0 Snake...

 

[ftl]

See for yourself:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202

If that's not the overall opinion, it would definately have to be a signifigant opinion within the community.

Hah. That thread is inconsistent.

The picture has MK as blue ("slight advantage") whereas the description of the matchup right below it has MK as orange ("slight disadvantage") and is labeled as 45-55 in MK's favor.

 

[Xenesis]

Since this topic is so random I'm just going to bring up a totally pointless and irrelevant comparison to keep things interesting, 'kay guys?

In competative play of Advance Wars, only one CO is banned in Days of Ruin: Caulder. In a game where COs generally have a minor affect on the overall match, Caulder breaks this by making the unit he's attached to have 180%/180% attack/defense, making it hit really, really hard and very annoying to kill. His CO zone is also 3 spaces wide, which is relatively large and enough to cover most of the frontlines with ease, giving all units within 160%/160% attack/defense, which is still pretty insane. To top it all off, Caulder heals all units within his CO zone 5 HP every turn. Now, on paper he looks balanced since he has no actual CO power, his CO zone can't grow, and he still has to pay for the repairs, but in practice he is too good.

Having to not build new units for that turn as compensation for repairing all the ones on the front lines is a worthy sacrifice since you don't need new ones if your current ones don't need replacing anytime soon, and the fact his attack and defense boosts are so insane makes it so you have to spend at least 3 times as many units if not more just to get his to the point where they are taking more than they can heal, which leaves you severely weakened by the time Caulder's turn comes up. The only one who might stand a chance against him is Tabitha, the best CO in the game if we don't count Caulder, but even she has problems since her CO zone only affects the unit she is currently attached to and she is incapable of healing herself.

In comparison, MK cannot heal himself, does not make himself deal considerably more damage with each attack, make himself take considerably less damage with each enemy attack, nor give these same powers to nearby allies. Therefore, he is not broken enough to warrent a ban.

Actually, the tiers are like this for the most part for AWDoR:

Broken
Caulder

Overpowered
Tabitha
Isabella

Fair
Brenner
Gage
Lin
Forsythe
Penny
Will

Underpowered
Greyfield
Waylon
Tasha

Note that Isabella becomes better than Tabitha on standard IS Maps (Eg, Nintendo Wifi Random), while Tabitha is better in the constrained funding of AWBW standard maps (3000k starting funds) and Greyfield goes to **** tier on Naval maps. You could actually make an argument for banning Isabella and Tabitha quite easily, though and it often happens that they are.

 

[popsofctown]

oh my gosh days of ruin plays online!!?!?!?
I want!!!

 

[aeghrur]

Actually, the tiers are like this for the most part for AWDoR:

Broken
Caulder

Overpowered
Tabitha
Isabella

Fair
Brenner
Gage
Lin
Forsythe
Penny
Will

Underpowered
Greyfield
Waylon
Tasha

Note that Isabella becomes better than Tabitha on standard IS Maps (Eg, Nintendo Wifi Random), while Tabitha is better in the constrained funding of AWBW standard maps (3000k starting funds) and Greyfield goes to **** tier on Naval maps. You could actually make an argument for banning Isabella and Tabitha quite easily, though and it often happens that they are.

Lol, I thought you were M2k for a while, hahaha.

 

[dainbramage]

See for yourself:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167202

If that's not the overall opinion, it would definately have to be a signifigant opinion within the community.

Read through the discussion/summary itself. I don't know why the box is blue, but the MU is listed as 45:55 MK's favour, and it's horribly out-of-date by now anyway.


EDIT: Read before posting dain. ftl beat me to it.

other EDIT for exodus: But my falcon can beat my neighbour's mk!!1 In general, focus on what someone says rather than their join date/post count... if it's stupid, then disregard.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Read through the discussion/summary itself. I don't know why the box is blue, but the MU is listed as 45:55 MK's favour, and it's horribly out-of-date by now anyway.


EDIT: Read before posting dain. ftl beat me to it.

other EDIT for exodus: But my falcon can beat my neighbour's mk!!1 In general, focus on what someone says rather than their join date/post count... if it's stupid, then disregard.

Hah. That thread is inconsistent.

The picture has MK as blue ("slight advantage") whereas the description of the matchup right below it has MK as orange ("slight disadvantage") and is labeled as 45-55 in MK's favor.

Fun, props to the falco boards for being on the ball...

Falco gets destroyed by Metaknight. >_>

Medicore Falcos can do well against mediocre MKs, but once MKs stop running into grabs and start edgeguarding Falco well, it is gg.

I wouldn't say destroyed, but he is at a sizable disadvantage in this match-up.

Not expecting the chaingrab to actually see much use here, but it does come into play occasionally, so it's worth noting.

MK has the advantage against Falco for pretty much the same reason that Marth does, once inside a certain range, falco becomes totally punishable, and there's nothing falco can do to force a more advantagious range. Getting a better range is more useful against MK (because of the chaingrab), but really their advantage is about the same.

Which just goes to prove again, having a good chaingrab/deathgrab doesn't really change a match-up too much if your opponent functions better then you do outside of it's effective range (otherwise ice climbers would be the best character in the game).



Overall however, Falco is probably advantaged by the fact that less skilled Mks don't resist chain-grabbing to well, so I agree.

 

[Steeler]

game and watch is most def going to be #1 when mk is banned.

 

[Ryusuta]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking Yoshi can make at least a soft counter for Meta Knight with some refinements here and there.

I'm thinking specifically about Corneria (as a counterpick stage) at the moment. Basically, Yoshi can camp at the back of the Great Fox and try to force a 0-death wall infinite on Meta Knight. I'd put Yoshi at a possible 6:4 on Corneria, though I don't know with Meta Knight's speed and aerials. What do you think?

 

[cutter]

so who here thinks MK should be banned?

He will get banned eventually. Personally I would just cut our losses and axe Meta Knight before he causes any more damage (like he already hasn't lol).

Thanks Meta Knight for causing most of the people in my area and my old crew to quit Brawl.

 

[stingers]

cutter, I feel for ya. I really do.

The only reason the cure to cancer hasn't been discovered is because we haven't banned MK yet.

ARGUE THAT MK SUPPORTERS

BAN HIS ***

 

[aeghrur]

No, don't ban him yet. Let's add those hacks into our play and watch ike become the new MK. :D /verbal irony

 

[cutter]

No, don't ban him yet. Let's add those hacks into our play and watch ike become the new MK. :D /verbal irony

lol that would just make it even worse.

 

[aeghrur]

lol that would just make it even worse.

Good point, Ike will show no sympathy.

 

[Mmac]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking Yoshi can make at least a soft counter for Meta Knight with some refinements here and there.

I'm thinking specifically about Corneria (as a counterpick stage) at the moment. Basically, Yoshi can camp at the back of the Great Fox and try to force a 0-death wall infinite on Meta Knight. I'd put Yoshi at a possible 6:4 on Corneria, though I don't know with Meta Knight's speed and aerials. What do you think?

Why Corneria? Take him to Yoshi's Island Melee, and they die in seconds.

 

[AlexX]

Note that Isabella becomes better than Tabitha on standard IS Maps (Eg, Nintendo Wifi Random), while Tabitha is better in the constrained funding of AWBW standard maps (3000k starting funds) and Greyfield goes to **** tier on Naval maps. You could actually make an argument for banning Isabella and Tabitha quite easily, though and it often happens that they are.

I know that there's some debate over whether or not Tabitha and Isabella are too good, but I honestly don't think they are. Granted, anything Tabitha puts herself into is really annoying to kill, but what she's in is the only thing she boosts. To build her CO zone she has to deal 30 damage personally, which can take some time. Her power is insane, but she'll be lucky if she can pull it off even once in a match considering that attaching her to a unit is akin to painting a big target on herself. Meanwhile, Isabella's CO zone is relatively small and her boost is also rather minor (though still useful, of course). If she pulls off her power she can really do some damage, yeah, but again, it's very possible to stop her before she does so. Even mediocre COs like Forcythe can get into her zone and take out the unit she's in unless the map has a lot of choke points or something (but honestly, I fear Gage more than Isabella in situations like that... Higher attack boost and larger CO zone make it so that it doesn't matter if his CO power isn't as good... heck, he doesn't even have to use it to be problem, Isabella meanwhile needs her power in order to be at her best).

That said, I think that tier list is off... I know for a fact Greyfield is at least mid-tier because his power includes resupplying building materials to units, which is amazingly useful once you learn the uses in temporary buildings (and having a single Carrier be able to build 8 Seaplanes is just plain crazy).

Waylon? Come on, at least agree he's better than Will (2 attack stars in a small CO zone that only benefits ground direct-combat units... whee...). Put him in a Fighter and you pretty much own the sky. Plus, maybe it's just me, but I personally find air units to be pretty fragile, so Waylon's defense boost really helps at times.

 

[Ryusuta]

Why Corneria? Take him to Yoshi's Island Melee, and they die in seconds.

Wait, really? I thought he couldn't be CGed up those slopes. Unless there's something else. Teach me, O Cyan Yoshi, that I might bring your knowledge to the Land of the Pinks.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Adumbrodeus, I don't know where you have these numbers from...It should be like this

Mk vs Snake = 60:40
MK vs Dedede = 60:40
MK vs GnW = 60:40 - 65:35
MK vs Falco = 65:35
MK vs ROB = 70:30
MK vs Marth = 65:35

 

[Master Knight DH]

I know that there's some debate over whether or not Tabitha and Isabella are too good, but I honestly don't think they are. Granted, anything Tabitha puts herself into is really annoying to kill, but what she's in is the only thing she boosts. To build her CO zone she has to deal 30 damage personally, which can take some time. Her power is insane, but she'll be lucky if she can pull it off even once in a match considering that attaching her to a unit is akin to painting a big target on herself. Meanwhile, Isabella's CO zone is relatively small and her boost is also rather minor (though still useful, of course). If she pulls off her power she can really do some damage, yeah, but again, it's very possible to stop her before she does so. Even mediocre COs like Forcythe can get into her zone and take out the unit she's in unless the map has a lot of choke points or something (but honestly, I fear Gage more than Isabella in situations like that... Higher attack boost and larger CO zone make it so that it doesn't matter if his CO power isn't as good... heck, he doesn't even have to use it to be problem, Isabella meanwhile needs her power in order to be at her best).

That said, I think that tier list is off... I know for a fact Greyfield is at least mid-tier because his power includes resupplying building materials to units, which is amazingly useful once you learn the uses in temporary buildings (and having a single Carrier be able to build 8 Seaplanes is just plain crazy).

Waylon? Come on, at least agree he's better than Will (2 attack stars in a small CO zone that only benefits ground direct-combat units... whee...). Put him in a Fighter and you pretty much own the sky. Plus, maybe it's just me, but I personally find air units to be pretty fragile, so Waylon's defense boost really helps at times.

Tabitha doesn't need to worry about losing her unit. And if she did, she can just put herself in another and she's back to instant killing. Yeah. That's why she gets top tier. Let me check her boosts, I believe they total 160% ATK and DEF....oh, that's right. There's also the veteran boost, I forgot about that. So that's 180% ATK and DEF. Besides 55% on Roads/60% on Plains/65% on Cities/70% on Forests/75% on Mountains becoming guaranteed instant kills, Tabby's unit just plain refuses to die as well. 180% defense? Brenner doesn't even have that much defense on an individual unit, and, well, see my post from earlier. Oh. The Tank VS Anti-Tank matchup? Tabby in the Tank gets a severe advantage, at 54% (30% * 9/5) damage dealt, 41% (75% * 5/9) full health damage taken and that will get cut in HALF, if not reduced by 3/5 to 16%. It's ridiculous.

Hmm, maybe you're underestimating the infantry wall in general. The whole basis of that is to have the Infantry take attacks for your other units. What's it matter that they die, they're just computer bits that will be deleted anyway and so long as they stop your artillery from being hit so that they shower the enemy force with shells? So much for Videogame Caring Potential. (Yeah, I'm aware that they cost 1500G each in Days of Ruin....but that was done in the theory that there's fewer of them in the mid and late game to stop the tanks. The problem is, you need them to capture cities to have the money for the units that can even handle the heavy combat duty in the first place.)

.....wait. Actually, 2 spaces isn't small for CO Zones by standards. Come to think of it, Brenner has the 3 space CO Zone.

Oh, Gage and Isabella have the same CO Zone. 2 spaces.

Greyfield's benefits for the Carriers aren't much. For 30000G, the Carriers are seriously underpowered. 8 Seaplanes, though not quite costing 176000G accounting for interest (you do have to pay that much still, just you can spend it gradually), is implausible when your navy is deep-sixed and your Carrier goes straight to the bottom of the brimy blue. Temporary buildings, you need air or sea units to even make use of them. That's out.

Waylon......maybe because air units are so expensive compared to land units if they try to be good. Choppers...I'm not fond of their lack of power against AA ordinance, they're virtually one-shot units, especially now that the AAs are less expensive in the (failed) attempts to make infantry spam a joke. Bombers are expensive and so are Fighters.

 

[Conway]

Not to get back.. on topic or anything but does anybody else think that banning MK will significantly affect the tier list? Just a thought.

 

[Dustlord]

I personally don't think banning Metaknight is a good idea, but for the most part I think he's one of those characters that should probably be soft-banned. You know, not really banned but the community generally agrees to not use him? Kind of like O.Sagat from Super Turbo is in Japan, an entire match of fighting against him is mostly just trying to get around his (ridiculously) fast fireballs. He's good, but not unbeatable.

As many people have already posted, MK is really good, but I'd hate to see the community as a whole stagnant. And honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with developing a good MK, so I think his game should continue to evolve with everyone else.

 

[Justblaze647]

Not to get back.. on topic or anything but does anybody else think that banning MK will significantly affect the tier list? Just a thought.

I don't think Snake will remain second...

 

[Punishment Divine]

I personally don't think banning Metaknight is a good idea, but for the most part I think he's one of those characters that should probably be soft-banned. You know, not really banned but the community generally agrees to not use him? Kind of like O.Sagat from Super Turbo is in Japan, an entire match of fighting against him is mostly just trying to get around his (ridiculously) fast fireballs. He's good, but not unbeatable.

As many people have already posted, MK is really good, but I'd hate to see the community as a whole stagnant. And honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with developing a good MK, so I think his game should continue to evolve with everyone else.

Americans are not honorable enough to play with soft bans. We have a "play to win" excuse for everything, so soft bans to us mean that those who follow it are scrubs, because they're not using what the game offers them to win to the fullest extent.

 

[The Real Inferno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKj6XuM0XrQ

All I have to say: lol

 

[popsofctown]

Americans are not honorable enough to play with soft bans. We have a "play to win" excuse for everything, so soft bans to us mean that those who follow it are scrubs, because they're not using what the game offers them to win to the fullest extent.

Overall, I agree that soft ban as a policy is not going to work.

However, i have been surprised that there are some people who will follow an unspoken soft ban. Might be because we live in the southeast though, we got some honor.
Several people in the area don't main Meta Knight for unspoken reasons.

At the last tournament i went to, there was only one MK main. He's an MK main but he's really a good guy.. he is attuned to fairness/honor. In the whole tournament, he used MK once, beating a scrub in the first round, but then he decided since no one there was using MK he wouldn't do it. He went on using DK, and in the finals against a Kirby, he won with Ness. NESS. It was good stuff.

 

[NeoCrono]

Overall, I agree that soft ban as a policy is not going to work.

However, i have been surprised that there are some people who will follow an unspoken soft ban. Might be because we live in the southeast though, we got some honor.
Several people in the area don't main Meta Knight for unspoken reasons.

At the last tournament i went to, there was only one MK main. He's an MK main but he's really a good guy.. he is attuned to fairness/honor. In the whole tournament, he used MK once, beating a scrub in the first round, but then he decided since no one there was using MK he wouldn't do it. He went on using DK, and in the finals against a Kirby, he won with Ness. NESS. It was good stuff.

That's mad cool, its nice to see if there are nice people out there. But the only thing is that if this was a big tournament, I highly doubt he would switch to anyone. But I know people like this that go to local tournaments in my neck of the woods. lol, he won with Ness

 

[Ryusuta]

I was thinking of soft-banning in terms of leaving it up to the individual tournament hosts.

For instance, there isn't an oversaturation of Meta Knights here in Colorado (far from it, in fact), so a ban isn't really as important here as, say, in California.

I'd say a fair compromise might be to allow tournament hosts the option to ban Meta Knight just like certain stages are left to host/territory discresion.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I was thinking of soft-banning in terms of leaving it up to the individual tournament hosts.

For instance, there isn't an oversaturation of Meta Knights here in Colorado (far from it, in fact), so a ban isn't really as important here as, say, in California.

I'd say a fair compromise might be to allow tournament hosts the option to ban Meta Knight just like certain stages are left to host/territory discresion.

its not advisable to do that because we as a large video game community with basically it own government need to have a valid straight forward set of rules that everyone no matter where they are from or where they go will know and understand.

also, how many times do i have to say this, if we are even having this conversation, Mk is already soft banned, people dont like or respect those people that use him, therefore he is already soft banned, but the people winning tourneys and making money dont care enough for that to matter so they use him anyway. thats why a soft ban doesnt work in america

 

[popsofctown]

I was thinking of soft-banning in terms of leaving it up to the individual tournament hosts.

For instance, there isn't an oversaturation of Meta Knights here in Colorado (far from it, in fact), so a ban isn't really as important here as, say, in California.

I'd say a fair compromise might be to allow tournament hosts the option to ban Meta Knight just like certain stages are left to host/territory discresion.

Yuna says a lot of stupid things, but this is true: you do NOT ban a character for being popular. Meta Knight is either too powerful for tournament play or he isn't.
The fact there are few MKs in Colorado shouldn't be a factor in those TD's decisions. The issue is whether MK is fair at all.

Technically, it's already up to any TD's discretion, SBR doesn't stop anyone, they just give endorsements. They could "half-endorse" an MK ban, but why?

 

[Ryusuta]

From where I'm sitting, it's a matter of economics. Tournament hosts could be in a very tough spot with this. On the one hand, if they ban Meta Knight and SBR doesn't, they might lose hardcore players that don't want to play unless the rules are the "official" rules (and don't kid yourself, there are a LOT of them). Likewise, if they decide to go along with SBR's ruling and allow Meta Knight, it could very well turn off people that are tired of playing against him. And as we've seen, even some high-level players have been calling it quits because of that blue puff.

It's a really bad spot for a tournament host to be in. If, on the other hand, SBR dictates that the ban of Meta Knight is optional (and there are precedents for this, such as stage legality), it makes things considerably more reasonable.

 

[Justblaze647]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKj6XuM0XrQ

All I have to say: lol

2nded

10 char

 

[ftl]

The fact there are few MKs in Colorado shouldn't be a factor in those TD's decisions. The issue is whether MK is fair at all.

The thing is though - if nobody plays MK, for whatever reason, it doesn't MATTER whether he's fair or not, because nobody plays him. It's a nonissue.

 

[Punishment Divine]

The thing is though - if nobody plays MK, for whatever reason, it doesn't MATTER whether he's fair or not, because nobody plays him. It's a nonissue.

That's redundant, though. it's like saying "Unsafe sex is bad but if no one does it it isn't an issue." Of course people are going to have sex, cause it's awesome. Just like Meta Knight

 

[Ryusuta]

It's funny you mention that, since prostitution is considered illegal except for in certain juristictions in Nevada.

 

[Punishment Divine]

It's funny you mention that, since prostitution is considered illegal except for in certain juristictions in Nevada.

How does that relate to what I was saying exactly?

 

[Alus]

That's redundant, though. it's like saying "Unsafe sex is bad but if no one does it it isn't an issue." Of course people are going to have sex, cause it's awesome. Just like Meta Knight

but unfair ISNT awesome thats the thing... there isnt one good reason to play metaknight exept to win... win and your rep will pretty much lower...

isnt that why you have that 100% free metaknight sig?

It's funny you mention that, since prostitution is considered illegal except for in certain juristictions in Nevada.

Wait.......what?