The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[~ Gheb ~]

Its a perfectly valid arguement , right?

No it's not 'cuz Akuma could beat everyone anytime he liked

 

[DRaGZ]

yes, ROB/sonic is 50-50, trust me.

but nobody in their right mind who plays a good character is going to admit a 50-50 match with sonic... thats obvious

but tenki is right, i cant prove it on paper, only in practice.

It's 50:50 if R.O.B. doesn't know the match-up well, which most R.O.B.s wouldn't. So it's easy to assume.

But R.O.B.'s advantage is only slight, I must admit. His ground speed make projectile spamming a chore.

 

[ADHD]

No it's not 'cuz Akuma could beat everyone anytime he liked

No but he's beatable therefor he's fair, it's such a great arguement

 

[Sucumbio]

ahh... mannnn, you done effed it up with that last sentance, lol. you know nobody's gonna listen to that post now right?
im glad you can see where i am salab are coming from.
about the controller thing... all i will say, is that whose decision is it that wii-chuck is THE default controls, as opposed to just the wii mote or the classic controller. thats why i disagree with that but i want this to stay on topic now that i just broke big ground with yuna.

meh, I'm just bitter, one of my posts in an online basic brawl thread elaborates, but essentially I've learned this game w/o the c-stick and don't normally use it. ne way back to MK

AS an experiment, I've set the computer to level 9 to play itself. MK vs Marth, FD, no items, no time limit, KO counter on.

Strangely enough, they're dead even at 0. Marth was first to be KO'd no doubt, MK was only at 30% when it happened. So to further elaborate on this experiment I'll try different characters and stop the matches after 1 hour to see who's really ahead, if anyone.

This may not prove anything, though except how much time I have on my hands >.>

 

[DRaGZ]

Sucumbio, that doesn't prove anything. Don't waste your time; you might as well spend it playing Brawl instead of watching Brawl.

 

[salaboB]

No but he's beatable therefor he's fair, it's such a great arguement

The problem is Yuna's only point seems to be "MK is beatable so he can't be banned." It's utterly inflexible, it's utterly true (Edit: That he is beatable), it makes no recognition (Or cares about) the tournament scene losing players, it makes no allowances for stagnation of the metagame. It also is based on other games that are more technical and allow player skill to have a greater impact than Brawl does, but it doesn't recognize this either.

It's noncontributive to a discussion about whether he should be banned or not because there will never be anything it can say other than "When MK goes 70:30 or better against everyone then he can be banned."

That is Yuna's entire argument as far as I can tell from reading the thread (And he refused to list his reasons why MK shouldn't be banned and told me to get them from the thread, so that's all I have to work with), and is why we'll never get anywhere discussing things with him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thank you... dragz

and salab, you are incorrect

 

[CR4SH]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198110

Meta-knight breaks more every day.

I still don't think we really ought to ban him though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Meta Knight does not yet (on paper and in practice) dominate the metagame to such an extent that no other character has a reasonable chance of beating him. Insofar, all of the reasons for why Meta Knight is dominating can be explained by "He's popular".

2. Neither in practice nor on paper does Meta Knight win over everyone else to such a degree there's no reasonable chance of defeating him. The mere fact that there are still characters who have arguable 45:55s and 5-4s against him makes him, at this moment, unbannable.

those are yunas criteria for a ban, but he still hasnt said whether only one or both of these things needs to be done in order for him ot concede to a ban

 

[ph00tbag]

Some people really don't know their Street Fighter. Akuma was not the easy button. If you were significantly better than your opponent, and they picked up Akuma, you could beat them. Ergo, he was beatable. The thing is, if you were of equal skill to your opponent, and they knew the match-up against your character, and they picked Akuma, they would always win.

The reason MK is compared to Akuma, is because between two players of equal skill, at the highest level of play, if one player picks MK, they have the advantage. Granted, this is nowhere near as extreme a case as Akuma, but it still makes MK a very worrisome aspect of the Brawl metagame, and it's certainly reminiscent.

 

[salaboB]

those are yunas criteria for a ban, but he still hasnt said whether only one or both of these things needs to be done in order for him ot concede to a ban

Those two reasons are both "He can be beaten"

Edit: I wasn't asking for what it would take for him to be banned. I was asking what the base reasons are for him not to be. Every reason I've ever seen Yuna make has ended up reducing to as long as he can be beaten at close to even odds, he can't be banned. He even went far enough to say the game would be better off dead competitively than ban a character who could still be beaten, which I did include in my reasoning when I made the statement of what his basic reason is.

 

[DRaGZ]

Some people really don't know their Street Fighter. Akuma was not the easy button. If you were significantly better than your opponent, and they picked up Akuma, you could beat them. Ergo, he was beatable. The thing is, if you were of equal skill to your opponent, and they knew the match-up against your character, and they picked Akuma, they would always win.

The reason MK is compared to Akuma, is because between two players of equal skill, at the highest level of play, if one player picks MK, they have the advantage. Granted, this is nowhere near as extreme a case as Akuma, but it still makes MK a very worrisome aspect of the Brawl metagame, and it's certainly reminiscent.

Yes, in fact, in Japan Akuma isn't "technically" banned, just sort of "soft" banned, meaning that high-level players will not play him out of respect.

However, every once in a while, a scrub will come along playing Akuma, he will get ***** in tournament, and people will cheer.

Wait, that sounds kind of familiar.

Unfortunately, this'll never fly in America since the concept of "respect" doesn't extend as far.

 

[Sucumbio]

Sucumbio, that doesn't prove anything. Don't waste your time; you might as well spend it playing Brawl instead of watching Brawl.

I dunno, yo he's up 4 ...

The AI in this game is fascinating to me, I also watch Spectator mode quite a bit. so nyah.

Once he's up by 5 I'll change to Chu and then Diddy.

 

[Anth0ny]

Yes, in fact, in Japan Akuma isn't "technically" banned, just sort of "soft" banned, meaning that high-level players will not play him out of respect.

However, every once in a while, a scrub will come along playing Akuma, he will get ***** in tournament, and people will cheer.

He's not hard banned in Japan? Man, some American ST pro should go there and just **** with Akuma. lol respect, if I could win hundreds or thousands of dollars, I'm freaking using Akuma.


I always though he was hard banned worldwide though

 

[DRaGZ]

He's not hard banned in Japan? Man, some American ST pro should go there and just **** with Akuma. lol respect, if I could win hundreds or thousands of dollars, I'm freaking using Akuma.


I always though he was hard banned worldwide though

I believe he's not hard-banned. I'm not 100% sure on this, but that's what I've been led to believe.

 

[ADHD]

just ban the ***** in a few months or so if things go out of control, it looks like the mk population is becoming the population of china

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yes, in fact, in Japan Akuma isn't "technically" banned, just sort of "soft" banned, meaning that high-level players will not play him out of respect.

However, every once in a while, a scrub will come along playing Akuma, he will get ***** in tournament, and people will cheer.

Wait, that sounds kind of familiar.

Unfortunately, this'll never fly in America since the concept of "respect" doesn't extend as far.

truth. i wish we were more respectful, but nothin doin...

Some people really don't know their Street Fighter. Akuma was not the easy button. If you were significantly better than your opponent, and they picked up Akuma, you could beat them. Ergo, he was beatable. The thing is, if you were of equal skill to your opponent, and they knew the match-up against your character, and they picked Akuma, they would always win.

The reason MK is compared to Akuma, is because between two players of equal skill, at the highest level of play, if one player picks MK, they have the advantage. Granted, this is nowhere near as extreme a case as Akuma, but it still makes MK a very worrisome aspect of the Brawl metagame, and it's certainly reminiscent.

i think this effectively kills yunas arguement

He's not hard banned in Japan? Man, some American ST pro should go there and just **** with Akuma. lol respect, if I could win hundreds or thousands of dollars, I'm freaking using Akuma.

and thats because your a douche bag, and thats also why you will be the hypothetical personin my first quote

 

[ThaRoy]

Is MetaKnight is beatable?

Yes.

However, that is not, in my opinion, what states criteria for banning.

MetaKnight can be contended and beaten at the top level of play. Put the true question is simply, is top level playing involving MetaKnight competitive? MetaKnight can be beaten, but realistically (not statistically per se), is MetaKnight contended?

The answer is no.

If we do not see any competitive play against MetaKnight by Christmas...I say he should be banned. If no progress is made by November 1st I say issue a warning...and by December First have him be soft banned. If still no progress is made by Christmas...hard banned.

It's not whether can he be beaten, but can you compete against him?

If a distinctly better player gets beaten by a lower level player strictly because of MetaKnight, and this becomes a constant thing...

I say ban.

Yes, he CAN be beaten...he always will have that possibility. But, not even bringin' numbers into play, will banning him ultimatly benefit the community?

Right now that is a no simply because it's still early.

But, if things don't change, I promise MetaKnight WILL be the death of competitive Smash.

 

[salaboB]

Yes, he CAN be beaten...he always will have that possibility. But, not even bringin' numbers into play, will banning him ultimatly benefit the community?

The problem is that MK is super adaptable, and people are only now learning how to abuse his moveset in hard to punish ways to respond to anything their opponents can bring against them. The newest tactics against G&W utilizing shuttle loop's invulnerability is just the most recent example of this.

People keep saying "Maybe we'll figure out how to beat MK". I only see MK figuring out how to beat everyone else occurring. He's simply got too many usable options, it's just taking time for people to learn how to apply them to beat everything you can throw at him.

The only thing that will help is something like an infinite against him that he can't use any move in, because that's the only time his major advantage won't come into play at all -- and since we haven't found one yet, the odds are diminishing as people quit playing against him (Either by switching or quitting) that we will find one (Except maybe an MK vs. MK inescapable )

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Because Marth suffers no disadvantageous matchups that Meta Knight destroys that Marth doesn't already beat? And we answered this already. Many pages back. You not seeing it does not mean we didn't.

lol what?

forgive me, but i literally don't understand this response.

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's my mono jerking with my brain. could you "dumb it down" for me or something?

 

[da K.I.D.]

on a side note

HOW THE HELL DOES THE 3RD/4TH LIGHTEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME HAVE SUPER ARMOR ON ANYOF HIS MOVES

 

[da K.I.D.]

if MK finds a infinite thats only useable on MK that shoudl be an instaban...lol

also i would like to restate my earlier idea

ban MK but if they pick random, they have to play with what ever character they get, even if its MK

 

[Melomaniacal]

Is it me or is this going in circles? It seems to me that the same arguments are being presented over and over again. One side says, he has no bad matchups, he hurts the metagame, ban him. The other side says he is beatable, he has some close to even matchups, he doesn't hurt the metagame, don't ban him. Don't get me wrong, there are other things being said plenty, but that's the bottom line that's just being presented over and over again.

If you ask me, at this point it's more about will banning MK help or hurt the metagame.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I haven't been following the threads in great detail. I stop by every once and awhile, and was involved in a few discussions awhile back, so I could be missing a lot of stuff. My apologies if I am wrong

 

[ThaRoy]

The problem is that MK is super adaptable, and people are only now learning how to abuse his moveset in hard to punish ways to respond to anything their opponents can bring against them. The newest tactics against G&W utilizing shuttle loop's invulnerability is just the most recent example of this.

People keep saying "Maybe we'll figure out how to beat MK". I only see MK figuring out how to beat everyone else occurring. He's simply got too many usable options, it's just taking time for people to learn how to apply them to beat everything you can throw at him.

The only thing that will help is something like an infinite against him that he can't use any move in, because that's the only time his major advantage won't come into play at all -- and since we haven't found one yet, the odds are diminishing as people quit playing against him (Either by switching or quitting) that we will find one (Except maybe an MK vs. MK inescapable )

Then, using what I said, banning him will benefit the community at large.

The thing that truly bothers me is a different issue...

MetaKnight is restricting Brawl.

People, whether you wish to admit it or not, make decisions based on MK. I have never seen so much controversy and hatred in-game related in my life.

And I was gaming at the age of 8 months.

Now, if suddenly MK is banned...imagine what would happen...

The game would seem...free.

MetaKnight is a restriction...

No, a bind. One that is influencing decisions on every individual.

No one can deny this, because arguing this point contradicts that.

And those who disagree simply are ignorant... And the fact that the SBR is considering this...kinda validates this.

But if MetaKnight is hard banned...people will instantly, upon instinct, try to find a substitute.

But, there is none...

Never, in video game history, has there been such a **** up...

MetaKnight is a mistake...and as such, needs to be corrected.

This is not what I am saying though, I am not trying to state this point to get others opinions or thoughts...

I don't care.

This is just a little...anxiety towards this.

When the stakes are turned, where will people go?

No where to run to baby...

...no where to hide...

 

[salaboB]

Then, using what I said, banning him will benefit the community at large.

Just to be clear, I was supporting your point about MK being worrisome (Or at least trying to. My goal was to provide further reasoning that was in agreement with yours but not repeating exactly what you had already said)

 

[ThaRoy]

Just to be clear, I was supporting your point (Or at least trying to. My goal was to provide further reasoning that was in agreement with yours but not repeating exactly what you had already said)

I wasn't trying to argue you...

Quite the opposite.

I stated my theory, you said something, so I just said that your statement follows mine.

Thank you for backing me up however...

 

[Lord Exor]

Never, in video game history, has there been such a **** up...

MetaKnight is a mistake...and as such, needs to be corrected.

Akuma would like to have a word with you.

Nonetheless, you're partially correct. Never in video game history has a narcissist such as Sakurai gone to such great lengths to favor his/her own characters in an all-star title.

 

[King~]

lol MK is so good he has people defending him from being banned


Its passed the half year mark now, hes been dominate through out brawls short lifespan. i think its time we lock him up for a little while. since this is a videogame the most you can expect is some people gettin pissy over losing their main. tournament results are only gonna get worse as time goes on, unless something is done.

personally Moveset, Match ups, results, the mindgames he has just from being MK, and overall dominance are enough for the ban. i dont see what would be wrong with atleast banning him until brawl hits the year mark and letting the other characters get some more focus. There will be now increasing in metagame for characters if all they can do is focus on the MK matchup since there are so many of them(popularity yes, but its true).

 

[Binx]

Part of me really feels bad about believing we should ban a character, but in this case I really have to make an exception.

Don't get me wrong I don't whine when I lose, but when I use anyone but metaknight against him I can definitely feel the difference, oh well we should all just go back to melee and hopefully nintendo will make a better game for ssb4 and then we can switch.

 

[da K.I.D.]

akuma was intentionally broken
Metaknight was.... ...oh

well akuma was a boss character.

 

[ph00tbag]

He's not hard banned in Japan? Man, some American ST pro should go there and just **** with Akuma. lol respect, if I could win hundreds or thousands of dollars, I'm freaking using Akuma.


I always though he was hard banned worldwide though

I'm pretty sure Akuma is hard-banned in Japan. O. Sagat is the only one that I'm sure is soft banned over there.

 

[Sucumbio]

I guess my experiment -was- in vain ^^; Chu won first to 5. In fact, i'd say this whole debate is missing a key factor. People... main? yeah. Main! They pick the character they win with the most, and it becomes their -main- choice when going into a fight. So ... if all the best in the world, notice that they get the best results with MK, and if the only real way (currently) is to counter a MK with another MK, then ... so be it! To compete, you'll have to learn to use MK as well as they. By banning him, true, you have this freedom as said earlier. Freedom from the terror with wings. You also will have this long lasting bitterness. This... incomplete feeling. Yeah, I'm the world's best, 'cept I didn't fight MK.

Another seemingly obvious solution to this debacle is to require tournament goers to play on Random. I mean isn't that more a true test as a brawler? A test of a full and complete understanding of Brawl. If you gonna get paid, you should be the best of the best, you should be able to win always regardless of who you are, who your opponent is, what stage, items, etc. All of it, really. If not, you're changing the game to fit YOUR shortcomings. In fact, that said, it seems that a MK mainer is doing that because they can't with anyone else SO totally. Too risky for them... at least MK is a sure thing. Yeah? I dunno my head hurts.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm pretty sure Akuma is hard-banned in Japan. O. Sagat is the only one that I'm sure is soft banned over there.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193040

 

[MorphedChaos]

Then, using what I said, banning him will benefit the community at large.

The thing that truly bothers me is a different issue...

MetaKnight is restricting Brawl.

People, whether you wish to admit it or not, make decisions based on MK. I have never seen so much controversy and hatred in-game related in my life.

And I was gaming at the age of 8 months.

Now, if suddenly MK is banned...imagine what would happen...

The game would seem...free.

MetaKnight is a restriction...

No, a bind. One that is influencing decisions on every individual.

No one can deny this, because arguing this point contradicts that.

And those who disagree simply are ignorant... And the fact that the SBR is considering this...kinda validates this.

But if MetaKnight is hard banned...people will instantly, upon instinct, try to find a substitute.

But, there is none...

Never, in video game history, has there been such a **** up...

MetaKnight is a mistake...and as such, needs to be corrected.

This is not what I am saying though, I am not trying to state this point to get others opinions or thoughts...

I don't care.

This is just a little...anxiety towards this.

When the stakes are turned, where will people go?

No where to run to baby...

...no where to hide...

Thats EXACTLY is going on! the Wario forums have learned a new CG, semi infinite, and we aren't testing it on all characters, we are devoting all of our energies to try to get it to work on MK, who it doesn't work on. No other character, just MK, Maybe a little Snake and D3, but 90% on MK, How is that right? We are making such an effort on ONE character, same for all other characters, all their AT's are being based around killing JUST MK, and ONLY MK.

Ban him, and we'll discover lots of new things, since people wont be trying to make a million stratigies to kill this one overused character, and have all of them fail.

Oh, not to mention, the whole Metagame is based around killing MK, who has no weaknesses besides being light.

 

[AlAxe]

Another seemingly obvious solution to this debacle is to require tournament goers to play on Random. I mean isn't that more a true test as a brawler? A test of a full and complete understanding of Brawl. If you gonna get paid, you should be the best of the best, you should be able to win always regardless of who you are, who your opponent is, what stage, items, etc. All of it, really. If not, you're changing the game to fit YOUR shortcomings. In fact, that said, it seems that a MK mainer is doing that because they can't with anyone else SO totally. Too risky for them... at least MK is a sure thing. Yeah? I dunno my head hurts.

Playing on random would deal with MK but would just make everything lame. Nobody wants to go to a tournament and lose after getting Yoshi and Jigglypuff on random (I swear to god random always gives me that f***ing dinosaur). It would also add a large element of luck to the game. What if you get Link and your opponent gets MK. The best players in the world can't win with that matchup vs. a respectable player.

 

[Mortimer]

Playing on random would deal with MK but would just make everything lame. Nobody wants to go to a tournament and lose after getting Yoshi and Jigglypuff on random (I swear to god random always gives me that f***ing dinosaur). It would also add a large element of luck to the game. What if you get Link and your opponent gets MK. The best players in the world can't win with that matchup vs. a respectable player.

You could use random to determine dittos. Whoever player 1 ends up as, you restart the match and both play as that character.

With that said, yeah, it would be balanced but it still would be pretty lame.

 

[PeeP]

Another seemingly obvious solution to this debacle is to require tournament goers to play on Random. I mean isn't that more a true test as a brawler? A test of a full and complete understanding of Brawl. If you gonna get paid, you should be the best of the best, you should be able to win always regardless of who you are, who your opponent is, what stage, items, etc. All of it, really. If not, you're changing the game to fit YOUR shortcomings.

Making tournament-goers play random would be an AWFUL idea. One person could get link and the other MK and who do you think would win.

Also to all stages and items, do you really want to go to a tournament where you lose to a scrub who gets a lucky FS, Golden hammer etc. spawn?

Edit: as i was posting 2 people posted the smae thing as me. ARGH!

 

[DRaGZ]

I think people should think of this as the Yankees vs. the Mets.

Sure, the Mets can technically beat the Yankees, but the Yankees start off with too much of a monetary advantage for the Mets to really have much of a chance.

 

[Ax00x0]

Part of me really feels bad about believing we should ban a character, but in this case I really have to make an exception..

^I agree with this. Rather than list my reasons for my support of his ban (since I'll just repeated what others have said) I'll just say it's amazingly obvious he was designed to supercede all other characters. I'm for the ban.

On that note, what is the for/against talley? And what is require to make this ban official?

 

[PK-ow!]

Meta Knight does not yet (on paper and in practice) dominate the metagame to such an extent that no other character has a reasonable chance of beating him. Insofar, all of the reasons for why Meta Knight is dominating can be explained by "He's popular".

Neither in practice nor on paper does Meta Knight win over everyone else to such a degree there's no reasonable chance of defeating him. The mere fact that there are still characters who have arguable 45:55s and 5-4s against him makes him, at this moment, unbannable.

Yuna, you don't need to reply to that guy's request. You don't need a reason for believing MK should not be banned other than that you have no reason to believe that he should. Burden of proof.

da K.I.D. should be aware, that you don't even need to believe MK should not be banned to argue for the case that he shouldn't - that's just intellectual honesty. I certainly don't think we're under any imperative to keep MK around, I think the world where he is banned is much better than this one. But that doesn't stop me from thinking carefully about what's being said here and being sure to point out poor reasoning where I see it. It might even change my beliefs. That's what debate is supposed to be - the search for truth, not the attempt to win over others.

(which is why the American and Canadian legal systems suck [/cheap shot])

lol MK is so good he has people defending him from being banned

Same goes for you. Just because people are shooting down arguments to ban MK, doesn't mean they're "on his side" or something (as if that would be bad). They're just trying to defend THE TRUTH, which we reach by being careful about our inferences.

Yuna has been a force for "the arguments to ban MK suck." That (by Burden of Proof, above), is pretty much what 'that side' is. Your comment is bad form and, quite frankly, immature.

Playing on random would deal with MK but would just make everything lame. Nobody wants to go to a tournament and lose after getting Yoshi and Jigglypuff on random (I swear to god random always gives me that f***ing dinosaur). It would also add a large element of luck to the game. What if you get Link and your opponent gets MK. The best players in the world can't win with that matchup vs. a respectable player.

Lawl guy, playing on random is just a stupid idea. Seriously. That's all the reason there is. Alternative format tournaments, go right ahead. But there's a huge scene of people that like to think that a fighter game is about choosing a character because they think they can be good with that character, maybe a handful of others, and telling that whole assembly to pick Random as a tourney standard, will just get empty looks, and rightly so.

His suggestion doesn't have a counterargument; it's simply nonsensical because it totally diverges from what people want from this game a competitive fighter game.