The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[XxBlackxX]

and im pretty sure that snake is a better character than GnW. and the matchups are not only 45-55, like ankoku said.

 

[Mew2King]

marth and especially snake both have the advantage vs GW. Snake ***** GW thanks to grenades.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

As an FYI, here is the temporary download link to download the official SBR podcast where we debated on whether or not MK is ban-worthy: http://smyn.smashnexus.net/download.php?id=45

I also added it to the first post. I'll be remaking the poll whenever we get the permanent download link up. I'm interested to see what people will think about this issue after listening to it. Show it to all of your friends too, so we can get people as educated as possible before voting on it again.

 

[Steeler]

here's what i think would happen, feel free to comment and rip my theory apart. i'm really interested in what competitive Brawl would look like without MK and how it'd change.

GW would become a lot more popular due to the fact that he has a clear advantage on sooooo many characters, like MK does. Marth and Snake usage rise as a result, to counter GW. Otherwise, almost the entire rest of the cast has a disadvantage. Toon Link usage could take a slight boost, but nothing major.

Marth becomes a very good tournament character, and is the most popular character of choice for ex-MKs due to have the most similar playstyle. Does not grow to complete dominance due to neutral, difficult matchups with Snake, Dedede, ROB, and to a lesser extent DK. In addition, Marth has a much higher learning curve than MK does, due to the intricacies of spacing and getting around Marth's lack of safe, reliable KO moves.

Snake's primary duty switches from being a common "anti" MK character to a common anti-GW character. I think his counters will become a lot more common though.

ROB has a horrible matchup with MK, but his matchup with GW isn't much better. He'll be aided by the fact that both Snake and Marth will be more common, and is a good choice against both characters.

i don't really have a good idea on what'd happen to DDD and Falco though. Both will like seeing more Snakes though. i don't think the mid to bottom will change much, but the top will definitely change. whether it's better or not is your opinion, although i think it'll resemble the top of Melee's tier list.

 

[Harbinger631]

I'm curious to what stopped Overswarm from placing in the top 8 in the [Hyper Viper B.]]MWC Event in Ann Arbor, MI [[Nov. 7-8] event. What characters gave MK a tough time? Did you try to use the most broken tactics you could? Did you even use MK?

 

[Doctor X]

He was beat by ICs and Snake. He played ROB in one match.

 

[Mew2King]

wow he really needs to stop saying MK is auto-win if he got 13thish (?) at that tourney. He lost to a Snake as Rob? ICs too? Rob does well vs both of them though!!! As I said originally, OS beating DSF's snake went to his head, as DSF sucks horribly at that matchup. Him using that as almost his entire basis is ridiculous.

I also heard the podcast that apparently MK is not a light character....... and lives Snake's Uair to 180%

also, did you know if MK down smashes Rob at the edge and Rob doesn't DI it at ZERO PERCENT, then Rob is GUARANTEED DEATH if MK doesn't mess up. These are all OS's beliefs. The odds of Sheik or Marth killing Falco/Fox after a down throw (or sheik back throw in her case) at the edge is under 50%. I know from experience, and I know edge gimping better than anyone. (Jiggs back throw however is a different story sadly because of the angle it sends and it's power)

btw the facts are (I did tests very early on in Brawl's lifetime) that MK is in the top 5 lightest characters of the 39.

 

[Harbinger631]

Even though MK is top 5 lightest, how much does the uair to stop momemtum matter? I know they mentioned that MK could slow himself down considerably faster than the rest of the cast, right?

 

[NinjaLink]

I do fine against MK with ROB. I beat a IC/MK player in the same set and won with ROB both times. I kno MK edgeguarding ROB is the main issue(still can get around it) but on stage i rush his azz down.

Rob beats Snake pretty good. I would put up ROB vs MK matchs but of course i'll hear the 'That MK sucks!' nonsense like every other match i put up. Its like MK wins......its accepted. Mk loses....Hell breaks loose like its never supposed to happen.

'Ignorance is painful.' - Cell from DBZ

Yea i heard the podcast. Some things about me were misinformed but i corrected them earlier in this thread along with others such as m2k mentioning my record against MK as a whole.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Rob doesn't beat Snake that well actually. He wins, but not by much, and I'd argue that it is kind of even actually.

 

[NinjaLink]

we had that discussion on aim Jesiah lol.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I forgot geez, no need to freak out and get so mad. :-P

 

[NinjaLink]

FREAKING OUT RAWR!!!!!

No johns, Smash Community!

 

[Master Raven]

I'm listening to the podcast, and I just heard Overswarm say Afro Thundah doesn't lead FL. WTF? He ***** FL; him and Seibrik are pretty much tied for first place as far as their tournament records down here are concerned, and neither of them play MK (Afro played MK to CP DDDs for a very short while, but he's dropped him since the September Gigabits I believe. He secondaries Wario now for DDD... don't ask why >_>).

XxchronicalsxX (2:25:26 AM): Lol I don't think Afro Thunder knows what is 5th place or lower

Granted, at the last Brawl Gigabits, he got 9th, but that was when he went nearly all Wario for the first time in a tourney setting.

 

[Mew2King]

OS doesn't care if it's true as long as the masses are convinced

btw make sure not to Uair any metaknights with Snake under 180% or they might live. MK is extremely heavy.

 

[Clouderz]

OS doesn't care if it's true as long as the masses are convinced

btw make sure not to Uair any metaknights with Snake under 180% or they might live. MK is extremely heavy.

idk why but i found that funny

**** im awesome

 

[NinjaLink]

OS doesn't care if it's true as long as the masses are convinced

btw make sure not to Uair any metaknights with Snake under 180% or they might live. MK is extremely heavy.

That Uair musta been so decayed. <3s

XD

 

[Xiivi]

OS doesn't care if it's true as long as the masses are convinced

btw make sure not to Uair any metaknights with Snake under 180% or they might live. MK is extremely heavy.

Remember that it's only on stages with a low ceiling like Halbred. On stages like Battlefield it probably won't kill until 200%, and that's on the top platform.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I mean unless his opponent's strategy was to get MK above him then vertically wall of pain him with auto cancelled Uairs and if MK landed he'd just grab and throw him back up, thus making the Uair very decayed.

Take a second to think about how funny that would look.

 

[NinjaLink]

It was on Lylat though.

 

[Ulevo]

I am thoroughly disappointed in this podcast debate. Tons of points given were not only flawed, but down right wrong. Many times the debate went very off topic, and as a lot of bias was present. It pains me to listen to this, christ.

Later on when I have time, I'm going to submit a post with responses to the points given in this pod cast.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Later on when I have time, I'm going to submit a post with responses to the points given in this pod cast.

Hey! Get out of my head!


Yeah, if you didn't get it, that was sort of my plan.


Personally, I think this points to the superiority of written debate vs. spoken debate. People can actually double-check their info before posting.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just want to correct a misconception here from a few pages back:

if we ban MK, its been said as an anti ban argument that if we ban MK we have to bann the next character (ppl please, do NOT get it twisted, that character is snake)because he'll be winning the tourneys and wont have bad matchups and whatnot.

Let me just say that I DONT CARE.

I care about playing brawl competitively and i want to do what will make the competitive community the best in the long run for the majority. And if banning MK will achieve that end,(and i really do think that it will) than so be it, and thats exactly what should happen.

And if later down the road, we come to the realisation that snake is without bad matchups that are not in his favor, and that he needs to be banned. than we will go through the same process that we are going through right now, and we will make that decision to do what is best for the game and those that play it. if that includes banning snake whent the time comes, we will do that.

and what if the next character (its DDD, dont argue this with me) comes up with something to make him too good for competition as well, we will ban that too, because we will do whatever is necessary to make the game as good as it can be.

Now, realise this, theres a very good chance that should MK be banned that the same fate will not befall anybody else... but should we go down that slippery slope, just know this.

We will cross that bridge when we get to it

for the record when I say "We" i dont mean that I am in the SBR, i mean "we" by all those of us involved in the competitive scene.

But yea, stop using the slippery slope argument, because all that is, is using unfounded claims to try and predict the future.

i dont care who gets banned, whether its MK, Snake, or Sonic, or CF, or Lucario, or Ganon, i dont care what the rules are, i dont care what the stages are...

If the rules are set for the best people to win and for everyone to have the most fun WHILE IN A COMPETITIVE ENVIORONMENT possible, than those are the rules that should be made.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i just want to correct a misconception here from a few pages back:

if we ban MK, its been said as an anti ban argument that if we ban MK we have to bann the next character (ppl please, do NOT get it twisted, that character is snake)because he'll be winning the tourneys and wont have bad matchups and whatnot.

Let me just say that I DONT CARE.

I care about playing brawl competitively and i want to do what will make the competitive community the best in the long run for the majority. And if banning MK will achieve that end,(and i really do think that it will) than so be it, and thats exactly what should happen.

And if later down the road, we come to the realisation that snake is without bad matchups that are not in his favor, and that he needs to be banned. than we will go through the same process that we are going through right now, and we will make that decision to do what is best for the game and those that play it. if that includes banning snake whent the time comes, we will do that.

and what if the next character (its DDD, dont argue this with me) comes up with something to make him too good for competition as well, we will ban that too, because we will do whatever is necessary to make the game as good as it can be.

Now, realise this, theres a very good chance that should MK be banned that the same fate will not befall anybody else... but should we go down that slippery slope, just know this.

We will cross that bridge when we get to it

for the record when I say "We" i dont mean that I am in the SBR, i mean "we" by all those of us involved in the competitive scene.

But yea, stop using the slippery slope argument, because all that is, is using unfounded claims to try and predict the future.

i dont care who gets banned, whether its MK, Snake, or Sonic, or CF, or Lucario, or Ganon, i dont care what the rules are, i dont care what the stages are...

If the rules are set for the best people to win and for everyone to have the most fun WHILE IN A COMPETITIVE ENVIORONMENT possible, than those are the rules that should be made.

To think this would've been a great post on the topic if not for the last sentance...

Uselessly referencing to a subjective concept like "fun" ruined the post's credibility.

 

[Ulevo]

Hey! Get out of my head!


Yeah, if you didn't get it, that was sort of my plan.


Personally, I think this points to the superiority of written debate vs. spoken debate. People can actually double-check their info before posting.

There is nothing to stop yourself from giving a proper vocal correction. There is something wrong with using non factual statistics in a debate as factual, and using them as a cohesive to secure your argument.

If anything this pod cast is worse for the general community because it is easier to broadcast and advertise false and misleading information that isn't just opinion based, and it happened multiple times.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Remember that it's only on stages with a low ceiling like Halbred. On stages like Battlefield it probably won't kill until 200%, and that's on the top platform.

I mean unless his opponent's strategy was to get MK above him then vertically wall of pain him with auto cancelled Uairs and if MK landed he'd just grab and throw him back up, thus making the Uair very decayed.

Take a second to think about how funny that would look.

dont get mad at the game just because snakes up air has about as much verticle knockback as the first hit of sonics up air...

 

[NinjaLink]

but snake and D3 does have bad matchups......

 

[da K.I.D.]

To think this would've been a great post on the topic if not for the last sentance...

Uselessly referencing to a subjective concept like "fun" ruined the post's credibility.

do i need to make the next 4 words that are already all caps bigger, because thats where the focus is supposed to be...

 

[da K.I.D.]

but snake and D3 does have bad matchups......

but theres still a possibility that theres some kind of tech that makes every down throw go the same distance as when he down throws bowser, effectively making him beat the whole cast...

read more carefully please.

seriously i think i covered ever possible option for that situation in the post

p.s. editted the last sentance on the big post, so as to show where the focus is

 

[da K.I.D.]

i will take the points for this....

 

[adumbrodeus]

There is nothing to stop yourself from giving a proper vocal correction. There is something wrong with using non factual statistics in a debate as factual, and using them as a cohesive to secure your argument.

If anything this pod cast is worse for the general community because it is easier to broadcast and advertise false and misleading information that isn't just opinion based, and it happened multiple times.

It's more an issue of no ability to check information during the actual debate, whereas in a written debate, you can simply double-check your information before posting.

The ability to vocally correct yourself doesn't mean anything if you don't know if you're wrong before the debate ends.

The most important application of this is when you're "pretty sure" of something, but not totally sure. That triggers the "oh, I'll double check this before posting" response, which means little in the heat of the moment in a vocal debate.


Overall, this makes vocal debates more of a judgment of the debaters themselves, and their knowledge, instead of the topic at hand.



Obviously, I'm assuming that the false information was in fact, a mistake on the part of the debater, they honestly believed the information was true. If they did know it was false and said it anyway, that's a different issue, but it's easier to call in a written debate anyway.


Really, I'm more making a point about the mechanics, whereas you're making a point about content, all I'm commenting is that the mechanics of the debate ENCOURAGES this content more then the other form of debate.

do i need to make the next 4 words that are already all caps bigger, because thats where the focus is supposed to be...

The focus is understood, the problem is where you're deriving your conclusions. Using "fun" as your criteria for judgment, even if it's not the focus of the argument, kills your credibility.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just want to correct a misconception here from a few pages back:

if we ban MK, its been said as an anti ban argument that if we ban MK we have to bann the next character (ppl please, do NOT get it twisted, that character is snake)because he'll be winning the tourneys and wont have bad matchups and whatnot.

Let me just say that I DONT CARE.

I care about playing brawl competitively and i want to do what will make the competitive community the best in the long run for the majority. And if banning MK will achieve that end,(and i really do think that it will) than so be it, and thats exactly what should happen.

And if later down the road, we come to the realisation that snake is without bad matchups that are not in his favor, and that he needs to be banned. than we will go through the same process that we are going through right now, and we will make that decision to do what is best for the game and those that play it. if that includes banning snake whent the time comes, we will do that.

and what if the next character (its DDD, dont argue this with me) comes up with something to make him too good for competition as well, we will ban that too, because we will do whatever is necessary to make the game as good as it can be.

Now, realise this, theres a very good chance that should MK be banned that the same fate will not befall anybody else... but should we go down that slippery slope, just know this.

We will cross that bridge when we get to it

for the record when I say "We" i dont mean that I am in the SBR, i mean "we" by all those of us involved in the competitive scene.

But yea, stop using the slippery slope argument, because all that is, is using unfounded claims to try and predict the future.

i dont care who gets banned, whether its MK, Snake, or Sonic, or CF, or Lucario, or Ganon, i dont care what the rules are, i dont care what the stages are...

If the rules are set for the best people to win and for everyone to have the most fun WHILE IN A COMPETITIVE ENVIORONMENT possible, than those are the rules that should be made.




re posted for it to be seen

 

[NinjaLink]

but theres still a possibility that theres some kind of tech that makes every down throw go the same distance as when he down throws bowser, effectively making him beat the whole cast...

read more carefully please.

seriously i think i covered ever possible option for that situation in the post

p.s. editted the last sentance on the big post, so as to show where the focus is

what does dthrow has to do with anything. I barely get grabbed by snake to begin with.

And D3 ***** the hell outta snake which is why most Snakes have a secondary such as afro thunder with wario.

 

[JesiahTEG]

And D3 ***** the hell outta snake which is why most Snakes have a secondary such as afro thunder with wario.

Lies, terrible terrible lies you have there.

 

[Royale]

Where theres a will, theres definately a way. Voted no, simply because the game was released March 8th[?] of this year. Your gonna need people to continue tinker with how to play against MK. Whether its in a competitive situation or in a friendly match.


Bad match ups is a term thats often thrown around quite abit. But is it truely all in MKs favor? Someone once said on these boards that sometimes its all about how the match is played out. Its not always going to be MK winning, mainly because alot of competitors got the heart, and talent to help break what appears to be a massive problem.

I also find the anti-MK bandwagon quite sad. He's not so horribly broken that a flick of his sword is an instant KO. The frustration and anger i see, i understand though. I've played those matches against those types of annoying MKs. They're not fun to play against i totally agree. But you know what? I've found ways to work around it, and you should too.

 

[NinjaLink]

Lies, terrible terrible lies you have there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIBt1KQqWII

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fxwgKdJS4k

'Nuff said

 

[NinjaLink]

Where theres a will, theres definately a way. Voted no, simply because the game was released March 8th[?] of this year. Your gonna need people to continue tinker with how to play against MK. Whether its in a competitive situation or in a friendly match.


Bad match ups is a term thats often thrown around quite abit. But is it truely all in MKs favor? Someone once said on these boards that sometimes its all about how the match is played out. Its not always going to be MK winning, mainly because alot of competitors got the heart, and talent to help break what appears to be a massive problem.

I also find the anti-MK bandwagon quite sad. He's not so horribly broken that a flick of his sword is an instant KO. The frustration and anger i see, i understand though. I've played those matches against those types of annoying MKs. They're not fun to play against i totally agree. But you know what? I've found ways to work around it, and you should too.

I agree with this.

 

[da K.I.D.]

..../sigh

you guys spend too much time on this thread.

@Adam
if smash didnt at least give you a vague notion of being fun, would you play it?
it would be just like work, except that only the top 3 workers get paid, and they still dont get paid nearly enough for the work that they put in.
nobody would play smash if it wasnt fun, it would be just like playing superman64....

@NL
ugh... the POINT is that it is possible for some development for a character to happen to make some character bannable, and that when that does happen, should it restrict play to a great enough extent... it should be banned

@royale
shut the hell up, you play snake, not every body has the luxury of playing a character that can almost completely shut downt the tornado.

@jesiah
shut the hell up, i beat your snake with D3, thats proof enough that its a sizable advantage

 

[NinjaLink]

..../sigh

you guys spend too much time on this thread.

@Adam
if smash didnt at least give you a vague notion of being fun, would you play it?
it would be just like work, except that only the top 3 workers get paid, and they still dont get paid nearly enough for the work that they put in.
nobody would play smash if it wasnt fun, it would be just like playing superman64....

@NL
ugh... the POINT is that it is possible for some development for a character to happen to make some character bannable, and that when that does happen, should it restrict play to a great enough extent... it should be banned

At the same time there can be development to work against this bannable method/tech

 

[Sephiroth27]

Yeah you'll have to word it differently. How about "D3 has a good game against Snake which is why...."

It's really awesome to talk about bad matchups when people argue "but its winnable." Yeah no ****ing ****. There isn't a single matchup in the game that isn't "winnable." The bottom line is that characters like Snake DO have unfavorable matchups which is why alot of Snake mains have a backup.