The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Turbo Ether]

According to M2K, a so-called perfect camping Olimar is impossible for MK to hit. Which means (to me) that even if the Olimar isn't "perfect", he should still do well enough, and occationally get hit. Olimars aren't really demonstrating much tournament showing at all; he isn't a very popular characer.

Ever notice how a lot of players dislike characters like Olimar and Pit, and they don't appear in tourneys much? I'm not sure why, but chracters with particularly annoying tactics for both the player and the opponent seem to be used with less frequency than other characters of about equal level. I mean, Olimar is arguably more annoying than MK, but he also isn't that fun to play (lots of camping and near-identical moves), and in spite of his obvious strengths, doesn't recieve much tourney showing. MK is fun to play, even if he is annoying to play against, and really dominates the scene.

EDIT: M2K explained it in one of the MK threads, he explained how Olimar's moves simply out-prioritize just about every MK approach with the exception of Dair, but how that final move would become predictable as the only vompletely viable option.

This sounds plausible. I also think that a potentially scary character like Ice Climbers may be held back by people not really wanting to invest into their high learning curve. Maybe.

 

[Lord Exor]

And M2k isn't going to skew his information at all, since we all know he is terrified of losing MK.

 

[salaboB]

EDIT: M2K explained it in one of the MK threads, he explained how Olimar's moves simply out-prioritize just about every MK approach with the exception of Dair, but how that final move would become predictable as the only vompletely viable option.

If the MK can still approach with dair and the Olimar has to react differently (Can't just sit and continue camping), it reopens mindgames and other approaches for MK.

So the question is, who gets punished harder for making a mistake in dealing with that approach? Because that's who will have the disadvantage in the matchup.

 

[1048576]

Well, when those characters are developed to the point of being on par with MK, we can bring MK back.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

so wait, you did no better than you would have normally, but you think that MK should be banned. You just admitted that at your level it doesn't matter whether you're facing a MK or some other character.

yes, i have no problems with metaknight at all. i have more problems with snake. when i do bad at a tournament i usually do not enjoy the tournament. however yesterday i did bad and still had fun, because mk was banned. MK being banned made it more fun because it was more entertaining to watch and play different characters. it was nice to see the top 10 not being dominated by one character for once.
honestly, if your beating a metaknight, its only because you are the better player overall.

 

[XxBlackxX]

According to M2K, a so-called perfect camping Olimar is impossible for MK to hit. Which means (to me) that even if the Olimar isn't "perfect", he should still do well enough, and occationally get hit. Olimars aren't really demonstrating much tournament showing at all; he isn't a very popular characer.

Ever notice how a lot of players dislike characters like Olimar and Pit, and they don't appear in tourneys much? I'm not sure why, but chracters with particularly annoying tactics for both the player and the opponent seem to be used with less frequency than other characters of about equal level. I mean, Olimar is arguably more annoying than MK, but he also isn't that fun to play (lots of camping and near-identical moves), and in spite of his obvious strengths, doesn't recieve much tourney showing. MK is fun to play, even if he is annoying to play against, and really dominates the scene.

EDIT: M2K explained it in one of the MK threads, he explained how Olimar's moves simply out-prioritize just about every MK approach with the exception of Dair, but how that final move would become predictable as the only vompletely viable option.

i think this is mostly true. however, i think pit is more fun to play as than MK. seriously, i've played against too much MKs to find fun playing as him.

@turbo
yea, ICs definitely have a lotta unexplored potential, not to mention that hardly anyone plays as them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

outprioritize? Are you kidding me? Olimar doesnt have alot of priority, every move breaks the pikmin.
Let alone that he and atomsk were refuted by the other Olimars as well as Dangr.
or does popularity have anything to do with it because Ike is more popular yet look at where he is. the popularity does not skew the result so much.

If Olimar isnt beating MK, then its clear that Olimar just doesn't have the advantage.

 

[Dark Marth 99]

wow, a guy who joined this month and has only 12 posts telling us what to think?



oh no, I'm so scared.

dude who are you you don't even know if he has an alternate account >.>

 

[brinboy789]

Olimar doesnt have alot of priority

uair says hi

 

[XxBlackxX]

dude who are you you don't even know if he has an alternate account >.>

well, the guy's post and the fact that he double-posted made him sound,well, new-ish.

 

[ShadowLink84]

uair says hi

yay one move!
Hey guys!
Olimar has very high overall priority because of Uair. Hes totally just gonna Uair the whole match.

 

[Justblaze647]

yay one move!
Hey guys!
Olimar has very high overall priority because of Uair. Hes totally just gonna Uair the whole match.

well he sure as heck isn't gonna be using his up-b (especially not for recovery purposes )

 

[adumbrodeus]

Stalling is generally banned isn't it?

It's a soft rule... totally unenforcable.

I don't know why they bothered.

 

[aeghrur]

uair says hi

Sonic's U-air has amazing priority too, He can totally beat MK.
Lucario's D-air has amazing priority too, he can totally **** MK.
Link's D-air has good priority, he's a counter to MK. >_>
Yeah, let's not ban MK. LOOK, 3 COUNTERS. >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

well he sure as heck isn't gonna be using his up-b (especially not for recovery purposes )

His ^B transcends priority.
Again Olimars overall priority is poor.
yeah his Uair gives off the idea of having high priority but thats because it multihits.
When his other moves connect they cancel and continue like a special.
The Uair hits multiple times making up for that issue.

It's a soft rule... totally unenforcable.

I don't know why they bothered.

makes sense.

 

[ROOOOY!]

There's only really two justifiable reasons as to why Metaknight should be banned :

MK breaks the counter pick system

Self-explanatory really. Meta has no disadvantages, and only one or two neutrals. This means that you're always at a disadvantage against Metaknight before the match even starts solely down to character choices. The only way this'll be alieviated is if there's a big gap in skill between the two people playing.

This ties in with :

People are being forced to pick up MK because other people pick up MK

Because Metaknight has no counters, people are having to play Metaknight just to start on level terms with their opponent, to actually have a decent chance at winning at high level. It's not because MK is unbeatable (which he most certainly isn't unbeatable) it's that people have had enough of being beaten by MK's who are worse players than themselves, and losing solely down to character choice. People have given up trying to find ways to beat Metaknight, and the further we're getting down Brawl's timeline the less likely it seems that we'll find a counter.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i think banning metaknight will definetly put a lot less stress in the brawl community and make the game more entertaining.

i went to hobo 12 yesterday and had the most fun i've ever had in a tournament. why? mk was banned? even though i did terrible, i didnt feel cheated or "gayed". also, i saw some of the best sets in my entire life. the finals were friggin amazing to watch. and, the finals/top 3 were not snake, snake, snake. it was actually diddy, lucario, marth.

You realize when anything changes in the format of a game, like a character ban, people are going to try new stuff more than the same old.

This has happened in Yu-gi-oh, it's happened in Magic, and it sure as heck will happen in Smash.

 

[Vyse]

Here are a couple of interesting posts I thought to save:

I have proved two criteria that require a ban:

1. character somehow breaks smash game play
2. character is unbeatable

only 1 of the 2 being required. Metaknight can be beaten, so that nullifies #2. Metaknight does not disable the key aspects that encompass smash game play, such as free movement, the ability to attack, defend, DI, or outplay your opponent, so he fits neither criteria.

While I'm at it, criterion #1 was the reason I wanted Wobbling banned, as it effectively DOES break smash game play.

smash game play does not encompass countering, as countering is not an element of smash game play, but rather countering is an element of our tournament format. the lack of counters does not leave MK to break smash game play, although I do believe him to have no counters.

edit: akuma breaks game play in his game, removing the ability to attack, thus warranting a ban. akuma actually fits both criteria.

My criteria is even simpler:
-Character takes the top 3 spots and 5-6 of the top 8 spots at national/regional tournaments on a consistent basis over several months.

There is then no guess work, its simply: look, it doesn't matter WHAT made the character do this, but this has happened.

Instead of: look, this could happen and it will cause this, but maybe this is happening and this will occur.

some feel Snake and Diddy run even, despite tournament results not reflecting this

Really? Last I checked Diddy Kong has more tournament wins against M2K than MK does. Actually, Diddy is the only character that has beaten M2K's MK, Azen's MK, and Forte's MK (multiple times). No MK can say they have accomplished that (M2K can't play himself), and no other character can say that. Ninjalink is like 30-2 against MK, but for some reason those 2 loses mean more than 30 wins. I guess Ken losing once to PC Chris at MLG NY in 2006 meant that PC Chris was a better player, despite Ken having only lost a handful of tournaments ever at the time (for the record, he won the next 2-3 MLG tournaments, including beating PC Chris).

There are a lot of counter-arguments to make as well, so I think a lot of this boils down to what we want in the future Metagame. Because although I don't think Metaknight should be banned personally, if enough people want it, and understand why, I'm not sure how to combat it as a TO.

Already in my area, MK is softbanned. And there's jack all I can do about it : /

There's only really two justifiable reasons as to why Metaknight should be banned :

MK breaks the counter pick system

Self-explanatory really. Meta has no disadvantages, and only one or two neutrals. This means that you're always at a disadvantage against Metaknight before the match even starts solely down to character choices. The only way this'll be alieviated is if there's a big gap in skill between the two people playing.

There are a few more than a couple. Arguably.

This ties in with :

People are being forced to pick up MK because other people pick up MK

Because Metaknight has no counters, people are having to play Metaknight just to start on level terms with their opponent, to actually have a decent chance at winning at high level. It's not because MK is unbeatable (which he most certainly isn't unbeatable) it's that people have had enough of being beaten by MK's who are worse players than themselves, and losing solely down to character choice. People have given up trying to find ways to beat Metaknight, and the further we're getting down Brawl's timeline the less likely it seems that we'll find a counter.

I usually tell them 'No Johns, get better' but I have to admit, I've seen people quit Brawl because they've been beaten by scrubby MKs.

 

[Bowser King]

I'm going to have to agree with rooooooy!!

I've been tossing around the idea of maining MK for far to long >_>

It's not that I wan't to. I almost have to.

-Bowser King

 

[Barge]

There's only really two justifiable reasons as to why Metaknight should be banned :

MK breaks the counter pick system

Self-explanatory really. Meta has no disadvantages, and only one or two neutrals. This means that you're always at a disadvantage against Metaknight before the match even starts solely down to character choices. The only way this'll be alieviated is if there's a big gap in skill between the two people playing.

This ties in with :

People are being forced to pick up MK because other people pick up MK

Because Metaknight has no counters, people are having to play Metaknight just to start on level terms with their opponent, to actually have a decent chance at winning at high level. It's not because MK is unbeatable (which he most certainly isn't unbeatable) it's that people have had enough of being beaten by MK's who are worse players than themselves, and losing solely down to character choice. People have given up trying to find ways to beat Metaknight, and the further we're getting down Brawl's timeline the less likely it seems that we'll find a counter.

Some more reasons

Lagless aerials: All of his aerials come out quick, land quick, do good damage, have little to no punishment and have disjointed hitboxes.
Recovery: His recovery is the best in the game, he can use all 4 of his B specials to get back on stage, almost ungimpable.
Gimp: He has one of the best Gimp games as well, nair being one of his most reliable moves, with great knockback and 360 range, he can pretty much guarantee a hit if your using him right. His shuttle loop hits people backwards when gimping =/

lastly: "Whorenado" good damage racker, unescapeable once you get sucked into it, the only way to get MK out of it is to attack through the little hole at the top, almost impossible D:

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't think the Tournament Results argument is valid at all.
If you look at Ankoku's thread, Metaknight has over double the amount of points even the person one place below him has.
There is no way MK will be caught, and the lead will only be stretched because more and more people are being almost 'forced' into maining him.

 

[Barge]

Indeed, it's like, if you enter as Metaknight in a tournament, you increase your chances of winning by like 10%, just because he has no disadvantageous matchups and high priority. =/

Hopefully we'll see some more variety

 

[NintenJoe]

lol

too.... many.... magicarp avatars!

 

[Vyse]

Indeed, it's like, if you enter as Metaknight in a tournament, you increase your chances of winning by like 10%, just because he has no disadvantageous matchups and high priority. =/

Hopefully we'll see some more variety

But there are alot of fighting games that see the same problem, and yet do not ban over powered characters.

I would get into the whole Magneto monopoly of MVC2, but I think there are others more qualified than me who have done that topic to death.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I must re-itorate that I don't feel that Metaknight is good enough to be banned.
Though I still feel he warrants a ban simply because people are giving up on countering him and character variety is dwindling.
In essence, I feel it's wouldn't be the right decision on the surface, but the right decision for the community.

 

[Bowser King]

Indeed, it's like, if you enter as Metaknight in a tournament, you increase your chances of winning by like 10%, just because he has no disadvantageous matchups and high priority. =/

Hopefully we'll see some more variety

I disagree with you veriety point. Id MK wins a lot and lowers popularity of others then that's almost like the top tiers of melee. Sure there aren't as many top placers but there still are people playing different chars. When that changes, I think a ban is reasonable.

-Bowser King

 

[Barge]

I must re-itorate that I don't feel that Metaknight is good enough to be banned.
Though I still feel he warrants a ban simply because people are giving up on countering him and character variety is dwindling.
In essence, I feel it's wouldn't be the right decision on the surface, but the right decision for the community.

When metaknights worst matchup is himself, it means he's good enough to be banned.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I used to be against the Meta-Knight ban, but now I just can't believe that anymore. Maybe it was because of the HOBO 11 results. Maybe it's because my friends two week old MK could beat my Mario, when his Ike and my Mario are about tied.

Meta-Knight has nearly no lag on his attacks, insane priority, recoveries are godly, and his edgeguarding game makes Mario's cape look like a useless rag.

MK is the best in the game at nearly everything, except for maybe raw power, and raw speed. And though not the top, he's still one of the best in both of those categories.

Not to mention that people are quiting Brawl over Meta-Knight.

 

[Vyse]

I must re-itorate that I don't feel that Metaknight is good enough to be banned.
Though I still feel he warrants a ban simply because people are giving up on countering him and character variety is dwindling.
In essence, I feel it's wouldn't be the right decision on the surface, but the right decision for the community.

I'm inclined to agree.
That's the only point that I would agree on making the ban.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Some more reasons

Lagless aerials: All of his aerials come out quick, land quick, do good damage, have little to no punishment and have disjointed hitboxes.

Marth?
long disjointed aerials, very fast, have little lag (except Dair and Uair)
how about Peach?

Recovery: His recovery is the best in the game, he can use all 4 of his B specials to get back on stage, almost ungimpable.

ROB, jigglypuff, Sonic.
They are very rarely gimped.
Its not a good reason.

Gimp: He has one of the best Gimp games as well, nair being one of his most reliable moves, with great knockback and 360 range, he can pretty much guarantee a hit if your using him right. His shuttle loop hits people backwards when gimping =/

Only if you reverse it and there are characters like Sonic who have good gimp games.
yes MK is the best one but thats hardly a reason to ban him.
DDD has his broken CG ban hi. thats basically the logic you put forth.

lastly: "Whorenado" good damage racker, unescapeable once you get sucked into it, the only way to get MK out of it is to attack through the little hole at the top, almost impossible D:

Its not small and if you di Up you can get out very easily.

 

[ROOOOY!]

When metaknights worst matchup is himself, it means he's good enough to be banned.

Very true. Even these so called neutrals to the best of my knowledge are 55:45 in his favour.
Not to mention one of those characters who does counter him (Yoshi) is very unpopular at tournaments because he's hard to learn.
The only other character who has a chance against him is Snake (who is the 2nd best in game, pretty prominent in tournies already.)

 

[SkylerOcon]

At the same time, ShadowLink, those traits alone don't make a character broken. Those traits together (and significantly better than anybody else's ability to do so) is what makes a character broken.

 

[Bowser King]

Marth?
long disjointed aerials, very fast, have little lag (except Dair and Uair)
how about Peach?

ROB, jigglypuff, Sonic.
They are very rarely gimped.
Its not a good reason.

Put those together and you have MK =/

-Bowser King

 

[Spire]

I've always been biased against Meta Knight because:

• I don't like him as a character
• He's uncomfortable to play as (in my opinion)
• His style of play is just utterly annoying.

However, while I dislike Meta Knight in almost every way, I do not support his banning. While many may exploit him easily (noobs and pros alike), he's merely an obstacle that takes some adjusting to get over. He, like all characters, can be beaten, and hence, should not be banned. While he has more ups than downs - in general - than all of the other playable characters, there are others who possess some better ups than he. Meta Knight is ranked as the best character because he has the most advantages over all other characters, not because his advantages are individually better than the advantages that others have.

To beat Meta Knight, you must exploit the advantages that other characters have to topple his array of ups to turn them into downs. Like said many, many times, "the best offense is a good defense," so you can potentially turn his many advantages into disadvantages with proper strategy.

 

[Barge]

Marth?
long disjointed aerials, very fast, have little lag (except Dair and Uair)
how about Peach?

Peaches aerials are laggier then marths.
And like you said, his dair and upair are laggy, none of MK's are.

ROB, jigglypuff, Sonic.
They are very rarely gimped.
Its not a good reason

Sonic and jiggly is, Rob not so much, but they can still be gimped easier than metaknight.

Only if you reverse it and there are characters like Sonic who have good gimp games.
yes MK is the best one but thats hardly a reason to ban him.
DDD has his broken CG ban hi. thats basically the logic you put forth.

You even said that he has the best gimp game, which is one of the factors as why hes the best in brawl. That + everything else = ban

Its not small and if you di Up you can get out very easily.

Still racks up damage, and if the MK goes up as well, you can't DI up, or am I wrong?

 

[Vyse]

Very true. Even these so called neutrals to the best of my knowledge are 55:45 in his favour.

Diddy at least 50:50's MK or even 60:40's him on FD.
Though, I guess that's not much of an argument

Not to mention one of those characters who does counter him (Yoshi) is very unpopular at tournaments because he's hard to learn.

The only other character who has a chance against him is Snake (who is the 2nd best in game, pretty prominent in tournies already.)

Again, Diddy?

I believe Diddy vs MK is like Melee Falco vs. Marth

 

[SkylerOcon]

Like said many, many times, "the best offense is a good defense," so you can potentially turn his many advantages into disadvantages with proper strategy.

*tries to use defense; gets owned by whorenado*

 

[Barge]

Diddy at least 50:50's MK or even 60:40's him on FD.
Though, I guess that's not much of an argument


again, diddy?

Metaknight should be staying in the air in this matchup, but yes, on ground diddy dominates

 

[Lord Viper]

Too... much... Magikarp. O_o

 

[ROOOOY!]

To beat Meta Knight, you must exploit the advantages that other characters have to topple his array of ups to turn them into downs. Like said many, many times, "the best offense is a good defense," so you can potentially turn his many advantages into disadvantages with proper strategy.

The only problem is that it's very hard to defend against a Metaknight. Not even Olimar or Zelda or Marth, who are arguably the best defensive characters in the game, can put up with a competant MK good at pressuring. No characters have the tools to dependably cut out things like Tornado with any consistancy at all if said Tornado is well placed.
That, and in general, some things are just on the verge of being uncounterable. How many good or even competant MK mains are going to get gimped, even by characters with good offstage games like Sonic or Jigglypuff?