The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Terios the Hedgehog]

iDA can hit it. I'm almost positive. But that's like 6 damage. XD I've also run BEHIND Ike during a shorthop fair and pivot grabbed. Not typical but I just like that Sonic's FAST. XD

Furthermore Sonic can DACUS it too. He has enough invincibility frames to pick Ike out of it.

 

[rehab]

I think Ness will end up top of low tier. He has a fine spacing game (unfortunately better ones exist), but he has a crappy character-specific flaw w/grabs, his camping is slow at best, his recovery has weird weak points, he doesn't have a really reliable kill move at good percents, and most importantly his matchups are unremarkable. He doesn't win anything for you.

 

[Gabz]

K.

Sheik: its fast, somewhat a little strong, has great jump and poor lag. The only thing is that he has low resistance you could say.

Ike(well handled of course): good spacing, good distance attacks, strong, good aerials attacks and great up-jump to reach the corner of the stage. The bad thing is, the famous ike's movement lag, although sometimes you could decrease a little that lag.

sonic: great speed, great jump, strength deficient bit its a great character that can easily do almost the same damage as a strong attack cause of his combo(you could say that, multiple fast attacks) capability.

Well, thats my reasoning lol

 

[Adapt]

A perfectly placed Fair by Ike IS unpunishable by anyone without a projectile unless you are Olimar or Sheik. this is a FACT. Olimar can only punish it 1/3 of the time (pikmin dependent), and Sheik can only do it with DACUS. Ike has enough time to shield or sidestep anything else. Some times it's almost frame perfect, but any other time he can avoid punishment.

I think ZSS and Samus can grab you out of a fair. I've done it before with ZSS at what looked like full extension.

 

[Zodac]

wouldn't you rather have your main lower, makes you look more pro.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

The idea isn't to get your main where you want. It's to assemble to most accurate data.

 

[Gabz]

The idea isn't to get your main where you want. It's to assemble to most accurate data.

And im doing it. In the recent list, ike is mid tier, and it should stay where it is, cause all of the list of things hes good at. I also explained sheik and sonic.

And well, if you main a low tier char for exm, you could say it needs more ability to be played well than top or high tiers. exm: mk-link.

 

[Ravin]

I think ZSS and Samus can grab you out of a fair. I've done it before with ZSS at what looked like full extension.

Why would you need to when Samus can just about any B move threw Ikes Fair? namely Zair?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I was replying to Zodac. XD

 

[Darknid]

Also, Yoshi can DR into an f tilt or egg lay to punish Ike's fair no matter how well he spaces. Plus, a perfectly placed F air with Ike isn't easy.

 

[Nestec]

I think Ness will end up top of low tier. He has a fine spacing game (unfortunately better ones exist), but he has a crappy character-specific flaw w/grabs, his camping is slow at best, his recovery has weird weak points, he doesn't have a really reliable kill move at good percents, and most importantly his matchups are unremarkable. He doesn't win anything for you.

The grab-release issue has already been resolved. EIDI, I believe.

You don't consider 120% a good killing percent? Ness will easily kill there with a simple grab -> Bthrow.

You can hardly count his camping game as something to keep him out of Middle Tier. Especially when other characters there don't even HAVE one ( Ike, Bowser).

Same goes with flawed recovery. ( Olimar, Bowser, I believe)
---

IMO, the only thing keeping Ness out of Middle is his crappy tournament results. And regardless of that fact, he is almost GUARANTEED top of Low Tier. >_<

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nestec, did you just say that Bowser doesn't have a camping game?

You are officially on crack now, sir.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nestec, did you just say that Bowser doesn't have a camping game?

You are officially on crack now, sir.

This. And Ike at least partly makes up for the lack of camping with spacing and range

 

[Nestec]

Lolwut, Bowser can effectively camp with his Firebreath? I'm not seeing it. X_X

And Ness may not have range quite like Ike, he actually HAS projectiles, although only one of them is good, and fairly nice hitboxes on moves like Fair. And wait a minute, how do spacing and range make up for a lack of long-range? Regardless of his spacing/swordrange, Ike will be torn apart by other campers, and will be insufficient at forcing approaches.

 

[rehab]

The grab-release issue has already been resolved. EIDI, I believe.

You don't consider 120% a good killing percent? Ness will easily kill there with a simple grab -> Bthrow.

You can hardly count his camping game as something to keep him out of Middle Tier. Especially when other characters there don't even HAVE one ( Ike, Bowser).

Same goes with flawed recovery. ( Olimar, Bowser, I believe)
---

IMO, the only thing keeping Ness out of Middle is his crappy tournament results. And regardless of that fact, he is almost GUARANTEED top of Low Tier. >_<

Even with EIDI, don't some characters get free moves from a grab? (Marth fsmash?)

Bthrow is fine, but for one thing it's bad to count on grabs for kills when people get really good at good characters' spacing games, and for another as a kill move 120% is pretty average, and his more landable kill moves like bair, upair and nair don't get much better for percent.

I'll admit it exists. It's just very slow. An absorbable/thoroughly blockable 8% of lightning with no chance of killing just isn't that threatening from across the stage, and PK Fire is just kind of blockable. Where many characters can wreck you from a distance and make it hard to get to them from there, Ness usually just gets them to approach at best.

You're pretty much right about the recovery thing. However, with say Olimar, recovery and being light enough to die early if you screw up is close to his only serious flaw. With Ness it's just one more little thing you have to compensate for.


Fights with Ness are generally realistically winnable (with some exceptions), but the same goes for a lot of lesser characters. He currently doesn't have the stuff to push it so that most of those fights are actually in his favor, plus he has some unfortunate other little flaws to worry about, which defines upper low tier to me.

for the record I fourth him and PKT is pretty cool

 

[Nestec]

Even with EIDI, don't some characters get free moves from a grab? (Marth fsmash?)

Bthrow is fine, but for one thing it's bad to count on grabs for kills when people get really good at good characters' spacing games, and for another as a kill move 120% is pretty average, and his more landable kill moves like bair, upair and nair don't get much better for percent.

I'll admit it exists. It's just very slow. An absorbable/thoroughly blockable 8% of lightning with no chance of killing just isn't that threatening from across the stage, and PK Fire is just kind of blockable. Where many characters can wreck you from a distance and make it hard to get to them from there, Ness usually just gets them to approach at best.

You're pretty much right about the recovery thing. However, with say Olimar, recovery and being light enough to die early if you screw up is close to his only serious flaw. With Ness it's just one more little thing you have to compensate for.


Fights with Ness are generally realistically winnable (with some exceptions), but the same goes for a lot of lesser characters. He currently doesn't have the stuff to push it so that most of those fights are actually in his favor, plus he has some unfortunate other little flaws to worry about, which defines upper low tier to me.

for the record I fourth him and PKT is pretty cool

With EIDI, he's only open for quick, high-range moves like a Marth Dsmash. And not many characters have those.

I personally don't think Nair is a very good kill move for Ness. But a Ness Bthrow kill is much more reliable than a Peach Fair kill.

And about camping, although you are right about its inferiority to the camp games of the upper tiers, it still is no worse than Luigi's, ZSS', and Bowser's. Especially when you throw in PKT mindgames.

And Ness typically doesn't need projectiles to force an approach. PSI Magnet shuts down many camping games anyway. And when he absolutely must approach, SH Fair is a safe tool.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i hate when people do this...

every character in the game can come up with a laundry list of reasons why they should be higher up in the tier list...
and more than half of them usually dont have anybearing on the list whatsoever...

i had a guy tell me that something that ike could do that only worked on 6 characters, was a valid reason for him to get a higher tier spot...

WE GET IT PEOPLE
every character in the game has positive aspects,
every character has little nuances that make them better.
but that doesnt make them better than any other character.

Every character in this game has improved tremendously since the las tier list came out. but just because your character improved doesnt mean that they are now a better character in relation to the rest of the cast.

Ness still sucks
Lucas is still low tier.
Ike is still not a good character.

the fact that these characters have improved means nothing because all the other characters have improved MORE.

Thats why these characters are still bad, and will most likely still be low (in ikes case, mid) tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic still sucks. Hes awful, list all the reasons you want, they dont make him better, every character has these nuances, they dont make him better than anyone above him.

C wut I did thar?

 

[da K.I.D.]

exactly, and its true and you are 100% right.

the next tier list will prove it.

i dont understand what you are trying to prove.


except for some characters (ESPECIALLY YOSHI) have certain nuance improvement that arent really nuance and change their entire game, and actually make them better than other characters, because they improve more than other characters.

yoshi grab release and ike wall infinite are both improvements to the character, but ike wall infinite doesnt make him better anywhere near close to the way yoshi GR makes him better.

do you see what im trying to say?

 

[Nestec]

My argument isn't that Ness has improved enough to make middle tier. I'm saying that minus the tournament results, Ness can compete with the likes of Middle tier characters like Bowser and Ike. ( I'm not saying, "if tournament results didn't matter". I'm saying "if Ness did better in tournaments".)

You can't say the same for other Low-tiers like Mario and Samus, who are just plain worse characters.

 

[choknater]

wow, can people DR consistently now?

 

[da K.I.D.]

wow, can people DR consistently now?

lolno

if this was aimed at me, i said GR, not DR...

@nestec
but if mario and samus did better in tournaments...
were in the same spot all over again.

because besides tourneys, whats to prove whether a character is better or not?

 

[-Mars-]

of course a fox main would say that, you all think you character is high tier and goes even with snake and MK....

rofl@peopleoverhypingtheircharacter...

and dont you dare say yall dont, cus ive seen it for myself

Sonic fanboys have been doing the same since the game came out.

You realise that the intrinsic properties of the spacies makes them all good choices against snake, since snake cant combo for crap, and he relies on singular hits to get his damage, it makes the fastfalling weakness of the spacies completely null.

personally i use wolf against snake, but thats besides the point.

fox is not advantaged to snake, and neither is wolf, and falco isnt either if the snake is smart enough to blow himself up to avoid the CG.

either way, fox is a really bad, really linear character, and sonic is better as an overall character.
its funny how it seems like all the mid tiers only have one thing keeping them out of low tier.

Fox-upsmash
Ike-Jabs
Luigi-Super fire punch.

Explain to me how just how Sonic is a better character then Fox? If you actually have valid reasons that aren't completely anti-Fox I might even be inclined to agree with you.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Explain to me how just how Sonic is a better character then Fox? If you actually have valid reasons that aren't completely anti-Fox I might even be inclined to agree with you.

Sonic can approach. His punishment game, whilst not as heavy as Fox's, is a lot more fluent, and he also has a lot more ways of baiting out mistakes from the opponent to punish. Sonic's recovery is a massive plus over Fox too.

 

[DMG]

I am curious to see where Wario will be on the next updated tier list. He's lost a ton of mains and a large tourney representation compared to a lot of other characters.

 

[Ryusuta]

wow, can people DR consistently now?

I can. So can Scat. I'm sure there's a few others, too.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic can approach. His punishment game, whilst not as heavy as Fox's, is a lot more fluent, and he also has a lot more ways of baiting out mistakes from the opponent to punish. Sonic's recovery is a massive plus over Fox too.

i was going to be a lot more wordy with this but rooooy pretty much summed it up
also the resized part is super important and of way more consequence than some of the other factors at least in my opinion

sonic is also heavier and has a better momentum cancel than fox as well.

I am curious to see where Wario will be on the next updated tier list. He's lost a ton of mains and a large tourney representation compared to a lot of other characters.

i was thinking this too.

 

[Deleted member]

Darnit kid you were supposed to defend sonic >
Thats what i was trying to prove but i guess it didnt work =(
XD

 

[Nestec]

@ KID

Yeah, I understand and agree with what you're saying about improvement.

But even if the other characters also do better with tourney results, they don't deserve to be placed around Ike, Bowser, and Sheik. I'm saying that, if there was this magical phenomenon that resulted in all of the E-ranks boosting up to level with C and D ranks, Ness deserves to be higher than or right under lower-Mid characters like Ike and Bowser. Basically, I'm arguing that he is better potential/attributes wise, at least better than the SBR gave him credit for. I think that this isn't the case for the other Low-tiers. (except maybe Sonic and Yoshi).

 

[-Mars-]

Sonic can approach. His punishment game, whilst not as heavy as Fox's, is a lot more fluent, and he also has a lot more ways of baiting out mistakes from the opponent to punish. Sonic's recovery is a massive plus over Fox too.

Fox is a spacie, there are very few matchups where he is forced to approach.

I don't see what you mean by more fluent....if you're referring to tech chasing ability then yes. It might be more fluent, but Fox's are just as effective. Also factor in that Fox kills FAR earlier than Sonic can and it becomes a non-factor.

I agree Sonic can bait better than Fox, why this makes him a better character I have no idea. Fox has little to bait when his opponent is going to be doing the approaching...Fox simply has to react and then punish while Sonic is the one who has to initiate things.

Sonic has one of the better recoveries in the game...........in fact he has a better recovery than most of the higher tier characters anyways. Falco, Olimar, Marth, Zelda, Lucario, and Wolf all have questionable recoveries including others.

Fox may not have a better recovery than Sonic, but it is in no way bad. Most of the time with proper DI, there is no need for him to even use one of his specials for recovery.

You're going to have to do better than that.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Sigh. I want to see Marth in top tier. He beats G&W and Falco pretty easily, and almost the same with R.O.B. Toptierpl0x

 

[Kinzer]

Darnit kid you were supposed to defend sonic >
Thats what i was trying to prove but i guess it didnt work =(
XD

Sonic sucks, everybody should know this by now.

Stuff.

Baw, you're so stubborn... Roy summed it up, what more do you want.

What he meant by more fluent is that Sonic has more options in that category than Fox.

 

[da K.I.D.]

because if you take away any one of sonics moves he can still win.

if you take away fox's down air, he becomes auto trash tier.

 

[Nestec]

@ Marsulas

Lol, it doesn't matter how good Fox recovery is. Fact is, SONIC'S IS BETTER. Lol, better > good.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fox is a spacie, there are very few matchups where he is forced to approach.

I don't see what you mean by more fluent....if you're referring to tech chasing ability then yes. It might be more fluent, but Fox's are just as effective. Also factor in that Fox kills FAR earlier than Sonic can and it becomes a non-factor.

Yeah. Camping to force approaches with Fox is all well and fine, but if said character can out-camp you you're going to have a problem. Also some characters can and will out-play Fox up-close; the most immediate example that comes to mind is Marth. Tech chasing with Fox is also pretty "lol" too. Give me a move aside from his shine and his f-throw that can set up tech chases well, because I don't see Fox having very many options aside from that.

And Fox only kills earlier via Up-Smash. Unless you're facing somebody with really bad DI and/or they're playing a really light character, you're not going to be doing much killing with anything else.

EDIT: I FORGOT ABOUT DOWN AIR. OH SNAP. LOL POWERSHIELD TO GRAB ON D-AIRING FOX.

Smooth Criminal

 

[da K.I.D.]

also @ sockz

im not stupid, that why i used the oppurtunity to explain why yoshi isnt low tier.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Fox is a spacie, there are very few matchups where he is forced to approach.

Other then refreshing moves, Fox's Blaster is pretty much useless. From long range, it forces approaches, but from mid range Fox can't Blaster because he'll get punished for it. So then what? Fox can be made to approach.

I agree Sonic can bait better than Fox, why this makes him a better character I have no idea.

Maybe because...they're both characters that depend on punishment as their main strategy, and Sonic accomplishes that job better?

Fox has little to bait when his opponent is going to be doing the approaching...Fox simply has to react and then punish while Sonic is the one who has to initiate things.

I don't get it. Are people just going to throw things out randomly for you to punish?

Fox may not have a better recovery than Sonic, but it is in no way bad. Most of the time with proper DI, there is no need for him to even use one of his specials for recovery.

Meh. Factor in that Fox is one of the lighest characters in the game, and Sonic is going to be outliving him methinks.

You're going to have to do better than that.

K lol. Sonic doesn't have any horrendous match-ups. Fox has several very bad ones thanks to his fall speed and other things (Sheik, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus)

Other then killing earlier, Fox has very little over Sonic.

 

[Browny]

Theres a general trend of light-weight characters having the best recoveries. While Fox's recovery may be decent compared to the cast overall, He is still a lightweight, rarely living past 110%. For sonics weight (above average, 19th heaviest out of 39) He has one of the best recoveries of every character above him, only ROB, wario and possibly DeDeDe will make it back as often as sonic, safely.

Fox on the other hand, has every character lighter than him having a better recovery, and there is a lot of heavier character's recoveries who overshadow his.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic being one of them.

i just want to point out that so far none of this is super anti-fox bashing.

because that was requested from this discussion and i think we are doing that very well for the person that asked that..

also, DJ, good players VERY RARELY let D3 recover safely, especially if he is forced to up b

 

[Umby]

Fox may not have a better recovery than Sonic, but it is in no way bad. Most of the time with proper DI, there is no need for him to even use one of his specials for recovery.

You're going to have to do better than that.

For the sake of conversation, could you oblige us in not using that in your argument? People tried to use that same reasoning with Link a while ago. Not to mention said reasoning could be applied to just about every character, at which point we have to have an outlet for comparison.