The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Nestec]

Oooh, I wanna add to the Fox bashing!! FOX SUKS, BAIR PHAILZ NAO, NO LASARLAUCK

/totally kidding

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hey, I main Fox in Brawl...but I acknowledge where KID and the Sonic mains are coming from in the matter. Fox is a solid character, but Sonic can do a lot more. Plain and simple.

Smooth Criminal

 

[da K.I.D.]

KID and the Sonic mains

Smooth Criminal

I think we should always be refered to as this...

i also thank you for your seeing eye to eye with me on the other stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

also @ sockz

im not stupid, that why i used the oppurtunity to explain why yoshi isnt low tier.

Yoshi is very possibly low tier, hes really not very good. Id let people disagree with me on that tho.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes close to the borderline because of the RPG, it really makes him a lot better, me thinks

 

[adumbrodeus]

Explain to me how just how Sonic is a better character then Fox? If you actually have valid reasons that aren't completely anti-Fox I might even be inclined to agree with you.

Sonic can approach. His punishment game, whilst not as heavy as Fox's, is a lot more fluent, and he also has a lot more ways of baiting out mistakes from the opponent to punish. Sonic's recovery is a massive plus over Fox too.

i was going to be a lot more wordy with this but rooooy pretty much summed it up
also the resized part is super important and of way more consequence than some of the other factors at least in my opinion

sonic is also heavier and has a better momentum cancel than fox as well.

What they said and, check the character serving as your avatar, and on your sig.

Really, tier position isn't about attributes so much as match-ups, attributes just decide match-ups.

Sonic may have bad match-ups, but nothing he has is anywhere near the level of Pikachu for example.

 

[Deleted member]

RPG? You mean grab release? Or what?

Well as ive been playing in tournaments with yoshi for quite a while, ive come to see that hes not as good as i once thought. Im not sure exactly who hes better than and who hes worse than, but as far as tournament viability for going without a secondary, id put him somewhere above ike and mario, wherever they end up. He has no omgwtfilose matchups, and his worst matchup is prolly 3.5:6.5

Edit: He does badly vs random characters like link and mario also -.-

 

[Ryusuta]

hes close to the borderline because of the RPG, it really makes him a lot better, me thinks

The what...?

By the way, quick question about Sonic: if you Cypher grab his up B, is he SOL, or can he neutral B back still?

 

[ROOOOY!]

No, if you grab him out of spring, he's screwed.

He's got more options to recover then Spring though. I've never been grabbed out of Spring, I'd be relatively ashamed of myself if I ever did.

 

[-Mars-]

Baw, you're so stubborn... Roy summed it up, what more do you want.

What he meant by more fluent is that Sonic has more options in that category than Fox.

I didn't disagree, yet when Fox has combo potential and the ability to KO at 100% on most of the cast, it isn't as much of a factor as you think

because if you take away any one of sonics moves he can still win.

if you take away fox's down air, he becomes auto trash tier.

Now this is Fox bashing, I think most people are accustomed to seeing the ******** dair happy Fox player that promptly gets ***** and I don't blame you if this is what you're basing that off of...but that is not the way Fox is supposed to be played. Dair is a punishing option....that's it. In fact fair, bair, and nair are better aerials anyway.

@ Marsulas

Lol, it doesn't matter how good Fox recovery is. Fact is, SONIC'S IS BETTER. Lol, better > good.

Please stay out of the discussion

Yeah. Camping to force approaches with Fox is all well and fine, but if said character can out-camp you you're going to have a problem. Also some characters can and will out-play Fox up-close; the most immediate example that comes to mind is Marth. Tech chasing with Fox is also pretty "lol" too. Give me a move aside from his shine and his f-throw that can set up tech chases well, because I don't see Fox having very many options aside from that.

And Fox only kills earlier via Up-Smash. Unless you're facing somebody with really bad DI and/or they're playing a really light character, you're not going to be doing much killing with anything else.

EDIT: I FORGOT ABOUT DOWN AIR. OH SNAP. LOL POWERSHIELD TO GRAB ON D-AIRING FOX.

Smooth Criminal

*Sigh*. Now you're bringing up his bad matchups, we're discussing Fox vs Sonic as a character......not there matchups.

There's also this misconception that Fox can't play offstage and has no edgeguarding game. he isn't Falco or Wolf and forced to stay on the stage.

Bair and Dsmash are also good secondary options and Uair has fantastic KO ability when it connects.

Like I mentioned earlier, dair should only be used for punishment.

Other then refreshing moves, Fox's Blaster is pretty much useless. From long range, it forces approaches, but from mid range Fox can't Blaster because he'll get punished for it. So then what? Fox can be made to approach.

It's a good thing Fox has speed and actually has some semblance of priority.

Maybe because...they're both characters that depend on punishment as their main strategy, and Sonic accomplishes that job better?

Usmash punishes far harder than anything Sonic can dream of.

I don't get it. Are people just going to throw things out randomly for you to punish?

Fox actually has an OoS game believe it or not.

Meh. Factor in that Fox is one of the lighest characters in the game, and Sonic is going to be outliving him methinks.

Good thing Fox kills characters at the same percentage he dies then right?

K lol. Sonic doesn't have any horrendous match-ups. Fox has several very bad ones thanks to his fall speed and other things (Sheik, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus)

Luigi gets ***** by MK and G&W, does that make him a worse character than Sonic........no. ZSS isn't even that bad anyways<_<

Other then killing earlier, Fox has very little over Sonic.

Fox doesn't have LOL priority, kills earlier, combo potential, a faster moveset, more powerful aerials, and a good OoS game.

Theres a general trend of light-weight characters having the best recoveries. While Fox's recovery may be decent compared to the cast overall, He is still a lightweight, rarely living past 110%. For sonics weight (above average, 19th heaviest out of 39) He has one of the best recoveries of every character above him, only ROB, wario and possibly DeDeDe will make it back as often as sonic, safely.

Fox on the other hand, has every character lighter than him having a better recovery, and there is a lot of heavier character's recoveries who overshadow his.

I wasn't saying his recovery was excellent..it's just not as bad as people make it out to be. I agree with you though but I already stated that Sonic's recovery is superior to Foxs'.

sonic being one of them.

i just want to point out that so far none of this is super anti-fox bashing.

because that was requested from this discussion and i think we are doing that very well for the person that asked that..

also, DJ, good players VERY RARELY let D3 recover safely, especially if he is forced to up b

Which is why I took the time to respond to everyone

 

[RDK]

Really, tier position isn't about attributes so much as match-ups, attributes just decide match-ups.

Sonic may have bad match-ups, but nothing he has is anywhere near the level of Pikachu for example.

This is contradictory reasoning.

If attributes decide matchups, then inherently matchups are going to decide tier position, which gives you a general idea about how well that character fairs. Seeing as how Fox is about high-mid and Sonic is mid-low, how is this even debatable?

If your'e talking about the individual Fox vs. Sonic matchup, then that's a whole other story. But you're seriously debating that Sonic is better than Fox? Wow.

Smooth, you should know better.

 

[Nestec]

Okay, this would be the best time for me to ask this n00bish question, so...

Where are people getting their info on all these match-ups? As far as I know, the only match-ups truly agreed on are the ones in DanGR's chart.

@ Marsulas:
Hmph, well excuuuuuuuse me. >_<
I see I cannot be taken seriously because I main Ness. ;P

 

[-Mars-]

For the sake of conversation, could you oblige us in not using that in your argument? People tried to use that same reasoning with Link a while ago. Not to mention said reasoning could be applied to just about every character, at which point we have to have an outlet for comparison.

Except Link doesn't have a fair that aids in recovery now does he?

 

[da K.I.D.]

character board surfing and personal experience, mixed with a dash of listening to people who know better.

 

[Ryusuta]

No, if you grab him out of spring, he's screwed.

He's got more options to recover then Spring though. I've never been grabbed out of Spring, I'd be relatively ashamed of myself if I ever did.

Figured as much, but I wanted to check out of curiosity. Thanks!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If your'e talking about the individual Fox vs. Sonic matchup, then that's a whole other story. But you're seriously debating that Sonic is better than Fox? Wow.

Smooth, you should know better.

Trust me, RDK. Brawl Fox ain't hot ****. Sonic on the whole actually has a helluva lot more options than Fox has. The only thing that Fox has on Sonic is killing ability and even that's limited to Up-Smash and (maybe) Up-Air (thank you for reminding me, Mar). Even then, that's only if the latter is fresh.

Sonic can punish extremely well, can intercept off the stage very well, and can actually close up the gaps really quick to make it slightly difficult to camp. Hell, he can even tech chase better than Fox.

Now, granted, I still don't like the way Sonic plays (I still love the character tho) and I don't plan on picking him up any time soon. But eh. At least you have Kirby in this game, RED DARKSTAR KIRRRBEHHHH.

Spoiler

>_> I'd much rather play your Falco in Melee, tho'.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nestec]

character board surfing and personal experience, mixed with a dash of listening to people who know better.

Yikes, I dunno crap about match-ups unless it's on the chart. X_X

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic is better then Fox :3

As for Marsulas...
Wow. Just wow. I really thought we'd gotten over this whole 'no priority' thing. Sonic has three moves with useful invincy frames, and has fairly decent priority on his ground moves whilst having a high priority air game. You probably have no idea about Sonic's priority, and are parroting the same bull**** people were spouting 4 months ago when they thought Sonic had bad priority when they were countering Spindashes that were coming from the other side of the stage >_>

That, and priority barely matters when you're a punishment character. With high disjoints on some aerials, he's relatively safe anyway, but the point is you're not meant to "approach". It's not like Sonic is the kind of character who should just run at the opponent and be agressive, that's ******** thinking.

Fox doesn't have LOL priority, kills earlier, combo potential, a faster moveset, more powerful aerials, and a good OoS game.

I know Fox doesn't have a good Oos game :3

Ignoring mistyping sentences, if you don't think Sonic has combo potential, then I give up debating with you because it's fairly clear you know nothing about Sonic.

**** it, I'm off to bed as it's nearly 5AM for me now here in England, I'll let the other guys clear up the huge gaping holes in your argument.

Night night.

 

[Kinzer]

But... I always play more aggresive than anything when I'm with Sawnik... I phail...

 

[-Mars-]

Trust me, RDK. Brawl Fox ain't hot ****. Sonic on the whole actually has a helluva lot more options than Fox has. The only thing that Fox has on Sonic is killing ability and even that's limited to Up-Smash and (maybe) Up-Air (thank you for reminding me, Mar). Even then, that's only if the latter is fresh.

Sonic can punish extremely well, can intercept off the stage very well, and can actually close up the gaps really quick to make it slightly difficult to camp. Hell, he can even tech chase better than Fox.

Lol, I don't know whether or not you actually play Fox.

Fox doesn't have LOL priority, kills earlier, combo potential, a faster moveset, more powerful aerials, and a good OoS game.........posted earlier on what Fox has over Sonic.

Since when is uair not going to be fresh lol, it's hard to land in the first place. Bair and dsmash, on the other hand, are not and they can be used OoS.

"Sonic can punish extremely well" so does Fox

"can actually close up the gaps really quick to make it slightly difficult to camp" Your acting like Fox is Ganon, he has a reflector and he's the 4th fastest character in the game OMG HAXORS!.

 

[RDK]

Trust me, RDK. Brawl Fox ain't hot ****. Sonic on the whole actually has a helluva lot more options than Fox has. The only thing that Fox has on Sonic is killing ability and even that's limited to Up-Smash and (maybe) Up-Air (thank you for reminding me, Mar). Even then, that's only if the latter is fresh.

Sonic can punish extremely well, can intercept off the stage very well, and can actually close up the gaps really quick to make it slightly difficult to camp. Hell, he can even tech chase better than Fox.

Now, granted, I still don't like the way Sonic plays (I still love the character tho) and I don't plan on picking him up any time soon. But eh. At least you have Kirby in this game, RED DARKSTAR KIRRRBEHHHH.

Spoiler

>_> I'd much rather play your Falco in Melee, tho'.

Smooth Criminal

I completely agree with you that B-Fox blows, but by no stretch of the imagination does he blow more than Sonic.

Fox has better killing ability than Sonic. Isn't that what matters? The point of the game is to knock your opponent off the stage faster. Unless you're a spammy noob who stales your best assets too quickly, you should be able to whittle the other guy down with lasers to force an approach, a little bit of n-air / b-air thrown in for good measure, and then seal the deal with d-air to d-smash or u-smash when enough hitstun gathers up to make for a decent kill (or u-air if that's where the match takes you).

Not only can Fox kill quicker, but he can camp like a mofo and his reflector gives him a good anti-projectile. Any ****** should be able to get past the silly things Sonic mains have to do to get damage in.

In any case, Brawl is gay.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is contradictory reasoning.

If attributes decide mathcups, then inherently matchups are going to decide tier position, which gives you a general idea about how well that character fairs. Seeing as how Fox is about high-mid and Sonic is mid-low, how is this even debatable?

If your'e talking about the individual Fox vs. Sonic matchup, then that's a whole other story. But you're seriously debating that Sonic is better than Fox? Wow.

Smooth, you should know better.

Because attributes don't matter BY THEMSELVES, attributes only matter as far as your character can take advantage of them against other characters, and other characters can take advantage of them.


So while you can argue that certain things should inherently give better overall match-ups, the fact is, characters in games are not amortized, the number is too small.

So, while in a vacuum a character might have better attributes, in the end what matters is whether these attributes can be taken advantage of to produce good match-ups or if they produce bad match-ups.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Lol, I don't know whether or not you actually play Fox.

I play Fox. I also acknowledge that Fox is a very limited character in scope.

Do you?

Smooth Criminal

 

[ROOOOY!]

In any case, Brawl is gay.

You got something right at least.

This whole LOL priority argument is dumb. It's only his specials that have bad priority, and they're only used for punishment and never really a direct approach, so ?

 

[RDK]

Because attributes don't matter BY THEMSELVES, attributes only matter as far as your character can take advantage of them against other characters, and other characters can take advantage of them.


So while you can argue that certain things should inherently give better overall match-ups, the fact is, characters in games are not amortized, the number is too small.

So, while in a vacuum a character might have better attributes, in the end what matters is whether these attributes can be taken advantage of to produce good match-ups or if they produce bad match-ups.

So my question is why are you under the impression that Fox as a character is worse overall than Sonic, even though his matchups and tier position (for the most part) say otherwise?

We also need to establish just what you guys mean when you say better. Are you talking the individual matchup, or just as a character?

 

[-Mars-]

Sonic is better then Fox :3

As for Marsulas...
Wow. Just wow. I really thought we'd gotten over this whole 'no priority' thing. Sonic has three moves with useful invincy frames, and has fairly decent priority on his ground moves whilst having a high priority air game. You probably have no idea about Sonic's priority, and are parroting the same bull**** people were spouting 4 months ago when they thought Sonic had bad priority when they were countering Spindashes that were coming from the other side of the stage >_>

That, and priority barely matters when you're a punishment character. With high disjoints on some aerials, he's relatively safe anyway, but the point is you're not meant to "approach". It's not like Sonic is the kind of character who should just run at the opponent and be agressive, that's ******** thinking.

Another reason why Fox is better, he's not limited to running around all over the place baiting characters.



I know Fox doesn't have a good Oos game :3

Then you don't know Fox

Ignoring mistyping sentences, if you don't think Sonic has combo potential, then I give up debating with you because it's fairly clear you know nothing about Sonic.

I never said Sonic doesn't have combo potential.....point me to where I said that. As for "mistyping sentences" if you're talking about me not quoting your messages correctly.........it's because I don't care enough to do so. If you're referring to my punctuation/grammar.......you're not one to be talking<_<

**** it, I'm off to bed as it's nearly 5AM for me now here in England, I'll let the other guys clear up the huge gaping holes in your argument.

Night night.

Nitey nite......oh wait you're still up.

Edit: Oh and if we're going to make a big deal about matchups, currently in your half-way finished matchup discussion.....Sonic doesn't have better matchups than Fox as it is.

 

[rehab]

mathcups

I laughed










I apologize

 

[RDK]

I laughed










I apologize

Hangovers suck.

 

[Kinzer]

So my question is why are you under the impression that Fox as a character is worse overall than Sonic, even though his matchups and tier position (for the most part) say otherwise?

We also need to establish just what you guys mean when you say better. Are you talking the individual matchup, or just as a character?

Watch Fox fall on the next tier list. I'm almost certain he will. BTW we only have matchups that are 65:35 at worst, can Fox say the same thing? Also who/what is Fox' best matchup and just by how much?

One more thing, why are people debating Sonic's credibility? HE SUCKS!

 

[Nestec]

@ RDK

I think they're discussing the individual chars themselves.

Not the "mathcup". XP I wouldn't know for sure though; Marsulas excluded me from the discussion. XD

 

[-Mars-]

Watch Fox fall on the next tier list. I'm almost certain he will. BTW we only have matchups that are 65:35 at worst, can Fox say the same thing? Also who/what is Fox' best matchup and just by how much?

One more thing, why are people debating Sonic's credibility? HE SUCKS!

I hate to say this, but don't go by the Fox matchup thread.....most of the people that post in the thread are a complete joke.

Foxs' horrible matchups include: Pika, Sheik, ZSS, Luigi, MK, and G&W. Out of those characters the only ones that are seen in tournament play are MK and G&W and the usmash makes those matchups not completely bad.

He doesn't have any **** matchups, but he does decent vs. ROB, Snake, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, DDD, DK, Diddy...........even the Falco boards have said that the Fox-Falco matchup is almost even.

@ RDK

I think they're discussing the individual chars themselves.

Not the "mathcup". XP I wouldn't know for sure though; Marsulas excluded me from the discussion. XD

Lol, my bad I just was upset over you joking that Sonic's recovery being better than Foxs' made him a better character xD.

 

[Umby]

Except Link doesn't have a fair that aids in recovery now does he?

Your argument didn't incorporate using Fair, and neither did my request. Both were referencing your statement about using proper DI.

 

[-Mars-]

Your argument didn't incorporate using Fair, and neither did my request. Both were referencing your statement about using proper DI.

I implied that with proper DI, Fox isn't required to use his side or up special for recovery. You compared my statement with Link players who don't have any other option but to use their recovery move. Big difference.

 

[Umby]

I implied that with proper DI, Fox isn't required to use his side or up special for recovery. You compared my statement with Link players who don't have any other option but to use their recovery move. Big difference.

Yes, and the generality of the statement is linked to using DI to do anything recovery-related. In any case, I don't believe the "proper DI clause" should be used in such reasoning.

 

[-Mars-]

Yes, and the generality of the statement is linked to using DI to do anything recovery-related. In any case, I don't believe the "proper DI clause" should be used in such reasoning.

Except I was arguing that with proper DI, Fox doesn't have to use a recovery move. Link players were arguing that with proper DI, Link doesn't get gimped............see where i'm coming from?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Except I was arguing that with proper DI, Fox doesn't have to use a recovery move. Link players were arguing that with proper DI, Link doesn't get gimped............see where i'm coming from?

No, they were arguing with proper DI, his double jump is sufficient.

 

[Umby]

Except I was arguing that with proper DI, Fox doesn't have to use a recovery move. Link players were arguing that with proper DI, Link doesn't get gimped............see where i'm coming from?

I understand that. But it all boils down to saying something redundant. Comparing one character's recovery to another will yield a statistical comparison. Comparing one character's recovery to another + DI makes it sound like one side is making an excuse for a character. Then, to make it fair, you'd apply the argument of DI to the other character, and it pretty much turns back to who has better recovery given what basic tools they already have. That's where I'm trying to come from.

 

[-Mars-]

No, they were arguing with proper DI, his double jump is sufficient.

LMAO.

I understand that. But it all boils down to saying something redundant. Comparing one character's recovery to another will yield a statistical comparison. Comparing one character's recovery to another + DI makes it sound like one side is making an excuse for a character. Then, to make it fair, you'd apply the argument of DI to the other character, and it pretty much turns back to who has better recovery given what basic tools they already have. That's where I'm trying to come from.

Fair enough.

 

[infomon]

Tumby and marsulas: what exactly are you two are talking about: surviving (avoiding the killzone from a hit), or recovering (safely returning to the stage afterwards)?

It sounds like the former, in which case... the difference between Fox's and Sonic's "momentum-cancelling" options (I overuse that term so much, oh well) is actually quite interesting. Sonic's down-B is amazing for survival, it even helps for avoiding vertical KOs after you fastfall a Fair. Fox doesn't have such an option, but I think his fastfall feed is so fast that when he fastfalls an aerial, it helps way more than Sonic. So even though Fox is a much lighter character than Sonic, any vertical launch that gives enough time to fastfall an aerial for any reasonable amount of time, might work out much better for Fox than Sonic.

I'm wondering if it's to the extent that Fox might often want to DI specifically so that he stages above the stage, where his fastfall aerial is enough to save him, and his more predictable side-B/up-B recovery options are less punishable. Just a thought though, this should be tested more...

 

[Umby]

Tumby and marsulas: what exactly are you two are talking about: surviving (avoiding the killzone from a hit), or recovering (safely returning to the stage afterwards)?

It sounds like the former, in which case... the difference between Fox's and Sonic's "momentum-cancelling" options (I overuse that term so much, oh well) is actually quite interesting. Sonic's down-B is amazing for survival, it even helps for avoiding vertical KOs after you fastfall a Fair. Fox doesn't have such an option, but I think his fastfall feed is so fast that when he fastfalls an aerial, it helps way more than Sonic. So even though Fox is a much lighter character than Sonic, any vertical launch that gives enough time to fastfall an aerial for any reasonable amount of time, might work out much better for Fox than Sonic.

I'm wondering if it's to the extent that Fox might often want to DI specifically so that he stages above the stage, where his fastfall aerial is enough to save him, and his more predictable side-B/up-B recovery options are less punishable. Just a thought though, this should be tested more...

We weren't really comparing Sonic recovery vs Fox recovery (though it should be apparently evident that Sonic's is better). We were discussing the viability of using "if you properly DI..." in the argument/discussion of how good or bad a character's recovery is.



And please stop calling me that.