The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[-Mars-]

I love it when people try to insult my intelligence, yet they don't even comprehend my posts. I was bringing up Foxs' speed to give a reason as to how he can keep himself from dying at 100% every time in matchups in general.....I never said anything about Sonic being afraid of it.

And no one's arguing with me because they're asleep<_<.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Sigh. The SBR tier list isn't just tournament results, it's also their own particular impressions and biases about the characters. If they think Sonic sucks, regardless of his tournament placings, then he'll be placed low. That's fine, it doesn't matter, these lists are dumb anyway; I agree with you on all that. But when people are here complaining that Sonic's placing is surprisingly low despite amazing tournament performance, it doesn't make much sense for you to come in here and (effectively) say "stop whining, just do better at tournaments"..... the point is that Sonics did, but that's gone ignored. Hmmm.

Thing is, tournament results are only a part of the greater picture as well.

Let's say character X does really well in tournaments all the time, but character X also makes up a disproportionate amount of the field. Is the fact that they do well in tournaments surprising if they are overrepresented? Indeed, if a disproportionate number of players play a character, and yet that character does not meet the percentage of wins/top 8s/whatevers that such a large population of people playing the character represents (for instance, if a character made up 50% of the field but only produced 40% of tournament results) then that character is not as good as their tournament results indicate; they're worse than them. Conversely, a character who makes up 0% of the field because they are a worse version of a better character may well be better than many characters who get actual tournament results, because everyone who would play the suckier version of the character plays the good version of the character. Or maybe the character suffers from bad matchups, so the tournament results underreport them; say someone played DK whenever they knew for a fact their opponent wasn't playing DeDeDe, and never played them otherwise. They wouldn't show up on the tournament results very well, despite playing DK whenever they felt he was a perfectly safe choice. DK would thus be underrepresented (because no one "mained" him) but could still be better than a lot of characters.

Not to mention the fact that not all tournaments are created equal.

This is not to say there may be personal biases, but the SBR people are supposedly better than you are, and ergo may well know better than you do. Indeed, that's what they're supposed to do.

You have to put up significant tournament results against good players to really be noticed. Ice Climbers made it out of the gutter in melee due to someone demonstrating that they were good; conversely, some very good players could beat most people with Kirby, and enjoyed playing him, but that didn't make Kirby good at all, despite the fact that they could kick most people's butts with him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Wow. The past couple of hours were filled with lols.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

*Yawn*

Heh Sonic mains

I hope Peach moves up in the tier list considering her consistant good tourney results results/decent match ups

 

[infomon]

This is not to say there may be personal biases, but the SBR people are supposedly better than you are, and ergo may well know better than you do. Indeed, that's what they're supposed to do.

I, and many other Sonic mains, have had to correct members of the SBR on several occasions where they clearly didn't know what the heck they were talking about when it comes to Sonic. It's not as if we're so far beneath the SBR that we can't possibly contribute to their understanding of our character. I know that I have contributed novel, useful information to these boards that has advanced the way some characters are played. These silly tier-list discussions are one of the ways that character knowledge actually makes its way from char-specific boards to the SBR, ie. they sometimes learn something about the chars and this influences their tier list.

1. I love it when people try to insult my intelligence, yet they don't even comprehend my posts. I was bringing up Foxs' speed to give a reason as to how he can keep himself from dying at 100% every time in matchups in general.....I never said anything about Sonic being afraid of it.

2. And no one's arguing with me because they're asleep<_<.

1. Two sentences previous, you criticized me for bringing up other matchups, because we were supposedly talking about Fox vs. Sonic. Now you say I should have known when you mentioned Fox's speed, that we were talking about his matchups in general. ?? If an author's works are misunderstood, the author is often to blame; at least in part.

2. You got me there

 

[-Mars-]

infzy, mad respect for ya man

I should have said Sonic players in general and not you because Foxs' matchups were brought up previously.

 

[Psychoace]

I thought we were suppose to get this on the first?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Not till the fifth.

 

[Browny]

Thing is, tournament results are only a part of the greater picture as well.

Let's say character X does really well in tournaments all the time, but character X also makes up a disproportionate amount of the field. Is the fact that they do well in tournaments surprising if they are overrepresented?

This has been proven to not be the case. There are just as many Sonics placing in tournaments as there are any other mid-tier or higher character.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

With LESS people actually scoring results. Ergo Sonic is placing either BETTER or in LARGER tourneys.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

This has been proven, multiple times, to not be the case. There are just as many Sonics placing in tournaments as there are any other mid-tier or higher character. its VERY easy to check this for yourself.

Um, what? Obviously you didn't understand my post. I was listing off reasons why tournament results alone are not equivalent to a "tier list". They're measuring different things; tournament results do not necessarily reflect actual character power or potential, or even currently understood character power or potential; tier lists are an attempt to do so.

I wasn't saying any particular reason was the reason why; I was listing off potentials. Also, your counterargument doesn't actually counter the point. If there are more people playing a character than usual, that character will get more t8s and wins than usual. I don't know if this is actually the case, but it is a potential cause of bias in tournament results, and is one major cause of such biases and one major reason why tournament results are not tier lists; a character may be particularly common but not necessarily be the best. You can see similar things happen in Magic from time to time, where the most popular deck is not the best deck.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic got a little more than half the placing that GaW got IIRC.(11 for Sonic 19 for GaW) Since Sonic is currently higher that means Sonic's been scoring either better or in larger tourneys which holds some merit.

Although the Rankings list reset and isn't actually able to be used for reference at this point. lol

And for the record who actually thinks that the Rankings list = a tier list? It doesn't take into account that one player could be worlds better and win with bad characters.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Titanium Dragon couldn't have missed the point more if he had fired in the wrong direction, and the point was in a different country all together.

I don't think ANY Sonic mains care about the tier list. What we do care about is not being able to be taken seriously during things like match-up discussions, often through the misinformation spread about Sonic from certain members of the SBR. I could use an example from a few pages back, where Marsulas basically said priority and killing power was the reason Fox was better then Sonic. Killing power, granted, but priority issues are so last April, Sonic isn't meant to be played in such a way that you're constantly rushing you're opponent. Chances are, most people who talk about priority have no idea how it works anyway =_=

Like previously said, we constantly have to correct the SBR on things said about Sonic, but even then that rectification is usually ignored and apparently we're 'spamming' by trying to get our point across.

Because that's all we're really aiming to do, spread correct information. If people don't want it, then it is not on our conscience when somebody loses to a competant Sonic in a tournament because the match-up guide for Sonic says "LOL priority" and very little else, which I have encountered on MULTIPLE character boards.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sigh Sonic has good tourney results-
Sonic isn't the greatest of characters-

Can we move on! It's a phenomenon due to his faithful mains who worked their *** off in tourneys.

Can we talk about something else? About how these new results will **** with the current tier list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

looks like rooooy is getting everything off his chest before he leaves swf for good... lol you only got 2 more days dude...

also I agree with everything he said.

PKN
the current ranking will have absolutely ZERO effect on the new tier list.

 

[PKNintendo]

Why leave SWF? If I was in your shoes (Ness getting abnormal results) I wouldn't care. Big deal if people ***** about my main? So, he' sgot good results and Im fine with that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

he has so much (or little depending on how you look at it) faith in the SBR that he said he would leave SWF forever if sonic make mid tier.

ROOOOY

you go back and find that quote and use it as your sig for the next couple days...

 

[ROOOOY!]

No no, I don't want to leave, I'm just leaving IF Sonic gets mid tier for the luls. I'm that sure it will not happen.

And, I second what KID said about the tourney results having 0 effect on the tier list, because obviously bias judgements on paper on here hold a lot more weight then what is actually happening in practice as a judge of how good a character is, obviously.

Sonic will very comfortably be bottom 10, because people can't get over the problems Sonic had in mid April last year.

@ KID I've got the prediction saved lol. I plan to throw it in everyone's faces when I'm right.

Actually screw it, I'll have it as my sig.

 

[da K.I.D.]

rooooy

you misunderstand me.
PKN was talking about how THIS CURRENT ranking list would affects the tiers.
since it only has results from a months worth of tourneys its completely meaningless in relation to the tier list.

the seasonal rankings that have 3-4 months of results in them, have a significant impact on the tier list

 

[PKNintendo]

Thank god. Ness isn't totally screwed. If Sonic hits mid tier? Hmm, let's pray he doesn't then.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Oh right, I get you now KID.

And PKN, if Ness gets lower then high low tier, I'll facepalm.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ness will be lucky if he makes it into the tier list this time. He's too busy getting grab released by everyone to sign up for the tier list

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness will be lucky if he makes it into the tier list this time. He's too busy getting grab released by everyone to sign up for the tier list

And Ness is guaranteed high low or top. I just wish it were mid. And know... I actually think Mario is going to mid, if Ness doesn't join him...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Mario has probably the least convincing case out of all the promising low tiers to make mid tier.

He'll probably get mid/high low tier though, most probably high if a bottom tier is formed.

Either way, inb4angrymariofanboys

 

[Bowser King]

You know, I do find it funny that you joined in June 2008, and have 4000 posts, and I joined in november 2004, and have 100 posts.

So in 50 months, I've made 100 posts, or 2 posts per month. In 7 months, you've made 4000 posts, or 571 posts per month - so you post about 28,000% more often than I do.

But each of my posts are 28,000% more important than yours, right?

Very likely. There's no way that 571 posts a month could possibly be intelligent post for the majority of them.

-Bowser King

 

[Kinzer]

...It's very hard not to start flaming when I already got this point addressed...

Post count doesn't and shouldn't matter... as if anybody on these boards have more than 90% of their total post count relevent to anything ( I know you won't), because we're humans that get bored/have needs/want to clown around, not robots...

Oey, and now that I see that last bit from the quote, no u, I have done my job in carrying weight on a board where I am needed, it's not like I only troll this place.

 

[ROOOOY!]

You should probably just ignore them, Kinzer.

I can personally vouch for Kinzer being a helpful member of the Sonic boards. What I find funny is that the people critiscing him saying that not all of his posts are helpful if he's posted as much as he has are completely off topic and serve no real purpose but to flame, and are wholly unneccessary and contradictory. Rather like this post is, but the ironing irony is delicious.

Basically, shut up.

 

[Kinzer]

Sorry, but it gets really annoying when people remind me of the same crap I've been told countless times, and that I don't know already myself.

But I guess it takes a no-life to know one, these people can't find other hobbies than to use every bit of info they can get to try to make me look worse.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'ma get this back on track a bit.

What does everyone think of ZSS? I think she'll rise a bit, she's got a fair bit of potential.

 

[da K.I.D.]

snakeee *****, thats about all i know, and her midrange game is rediculous.

 

[Jman115]

I agree. ZSS, Kirby and hopefully <crosses fingers> toon link.

 

[Tenki]

Very likely. There's no way that 571 posts a month could possibly be intelligent post for the majority of them.

-Bowser King

I'd disagree. i'm gonna keep doing this until i go over 9000, then mission complete, hahahaha

Sonic boards are really active though. I heard Bowser boards get like 10 posts a week, but you can almost always bet that someone's online in the Sonic boards who can either respond to questions or such.

It's also usually the same 10-20 active posters there though, and we all respond to each other, so pretty much anyone in the Sonic boards has a high post count relative to join entry to Sonic boards date

Really. People who previously had like 100-400 posts have 1000-3000 posts since the Sonic Boards became more active in late-April/mid-May. Of course, most of it is spam, but certain people can manage to keep things related to actual gameplay :3

Sigh Sonic has good tourney results-
Sonic isn't the greatest of characters-

Can we move on! It's a phenomenon due to his faithful mains who worked their *** off in tourneys.

Can we talk about something else? About how these new results will **** with the current tier list.

It's also kind of strange because you'd expect seasoned tournament players to be the ones taking the spots, but a significant amount of the Sonics that placed high in tourneys recently... did so in their first offline tournaments. Of course, you can argue it's matchup inexperience on their opponents' part, but then again, maybe they're doing something like... using their character correctly instead of spamming specials as was thought to be the metagame in mid-April.



I once saw somewhere that tournament results only factored in to about 10% of a character's placement in the tier list. The rest is all matchup/moveset ratings.

 

[Adapt]

IIRC, Ness and Sonic are winning all the low tier tourneys? That should indicate something imo

I'll have to trawl though the tourney results forums to find out if thats right though...

 

[PKNintendo]

IIRC, Ness and Sonic are winning all the low tier tourneys? That should indicate something imo

I'll have to trawl though the tourney results forums to find out if thats right though...

I hope so. Good luck Adapt.

 

[Adapt]

I did a quick check and I found 2 low tier tourneys...

Ness won them both, Sonic also placed high in both.
Mario did quite good in 1, but meh in the other.
Another notable was Samus getting second in one (but that was Xyro)

 

[Browny]

Past Lists
Fall 2008
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, King Dedede
B: (Falco, Marth), (Mr. Game & Watch, Wario), Lucario, (Diddy Kong, Olimar), ROB
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Pit), Fox
E: (Ness, Yoshi, Mario), Pokémon Trainer, (Link, Captain Falcon), (Lucas, Samus), Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

If any rankings results will affect the list, it will be the past 3 months.

Work off that

 

[-Mars-]

I remember Kinzer posting in the Ike and Sonic boards about his dog dying <_<.

 

[Da Man]

Bout time I make my own comment on the tier list;

Top
Meta Knight Overused
Snake Unfairly powerful
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco Hate Falco mainers for their annoying chaingrabs
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser Him? Above the Mario Bros? This tier list is a shambles
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness I know he's better than Lucas >_>
Mario He's supposed to be smack dab in the middle since he's the most balanced character in the smash series
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi He's one of the only characters who can evenly face MK
Sonic Never liked him
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon Nerfed big time, don't care about CF really

Mario and Ness better move out of bottom tier soon.

 

[-Mars-]

Bout time I make my own comment on the tier list;



Mario and Ness better move out of bottom tier soon.

Bowser is easily better than Mario. Guaranteed grab release setups on most of the cast, power, fast moves for a heavy, does well vs. MK etc. etc.

Mario gets destroyed by any characters with a little range, has a bad recovery, problems landing the kill......Bowser is far better.

I agree that Luigi is better than Bowser but definitely not Mario.

 

[.Marik]

Am I the only one who thinks Yoshi is unfairly placed?

I mean, he has amazing techniques, and has a fairly decent matchup against MetaKnight, and even though he may not be top or high, he's at least Mid-tier.