The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Ryusuta]

You're not the only one. It's an argument that has raged on far ages, now.

 

[ROOOOY!]

That Da Man, and a balanced character isn't necessarily good.

Mario shouldn't be dead middle, simply because he doesn't excel in anything. He's got a decent aerial game and a very very overhyped edgeguarding game (which is still fairly good none the less) but is either average or below average in everything else.

Every character should have something good about themselves. Mario just...doesn't.

 

[Adapt]

Past Lists
Fall 2008
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, King Dedede
B: (Falco, Marth), (Mr. Game & Watch, Wario), Lucario, (Diddy Kong, Olimar), ROB
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Pit), Fox
E: (Ness, Yoshi, Mario), Pokémon Trainer, (Link, Captain Falcon), (Lucas, Samus), Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

If any rankings results will affect the list, it will be the past 3 months.

Work off that

I think it would be better to work with the last 4 months (add the December points to this)
I'll ask Ankoku if he can post that list.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario gets destroyed by any characters with a little range, has a bad recovery, problems landing the kill......

Mario shouldn't be dead middle, simply because he doesn't excel in anything. He's got a decent aerial game and a very very overhyped edgeguarding game (which is still fairly good none the less) but is either average or below average in everything else.

Every character should have something good about themselves. Mario just...doesn't.

*sigh*

Should I even bother?

 

[Jon-Irenicus]

CF at the very bottom? Wow...

So if u take PT and break him down...Where do Squirtle, Charizard and Ivysaur fall into the tier list?

 

[Napilopez]

You can't effectively break him down because the characters fatigue. However, I believe most people generally agree that charizard is the best, squirtle the second best, and ivysaur is the worst, although of course there are exceptions.

 

[-Mars-]

*sigh*

Should I even bother?

No you shouldn't.......there is no possible case you could make for Mario being better than Bowser.

 

[HeroMystic]

No you shouldn't.......there is no possible case you could make for Mario being better than Bowser.

I don't care about that.

Your reasons just suck horribly because they're wrong.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Mmmkay. What does Mario do that another character can't do better?

Better yet, at what is Mario even above average in other then the two things I mentioned before?

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm not going to state reasons that've been stated a hundred times before because you guys never played against good Marios.

I'll just state that the only 'bad' area Mario has is his range and lack of early KO moves. Otherwise he's just fine.

At the very least, he's not low tier. Even the SBR has stated this.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Just because he's SUPPOSED to be average doesn't actually make him average. You're mixing up intent with reality. And the reality is that average characters can be either very bad or very good, depending on the game, or just be average; being average statistically doesn't really mean you'll be any good (or be bad).

 

[ROOOOY!]

1. I'm uninterested in his tier position.

2. Way to avoid the actual question.

I'm not calling Mario a bad character in any way. I'm just saying, he's not an average character in relation to the rest of the cast, simply because he has lots of things that are basically average about him. Most characters have a few traits overexaggerated about them (like Fox and his ability to kill well) whilst I can't really see anything that Mario can do that several other characters can't do better.

The SBR has stated that he's not low tier? Where so? I am 90% sure that Mario will be low tier again once the next tier list comes out in a few days.

 

[Twilght Link]

1. I'm uninterested in his tier position.

2. Way to avoid the actual question.

I'm not calling Mario a bad character in any way. I'm just saying, he's not an average character in relation to the rest of the cast, simply because he has lots of things that are basically average about him. Most characters have a few traits overexaggerated about them (like Fox and his ability to kill well) whilst I can't really see anything that Mario can do that several other characters can't do better.

The SBR has stated that he's not low tier? Where so? I am 90% sure that Mario will be low tier again once the next tier list comes out in a few days.

HOLD UP! I havent been following this topic for quite some time and i cant help but notice these words. Is it true a new tier list is coming out? Sorry if i asked a very stupid question.

 

[HeroMystic]

1. I'm uninterested in his tier position.

2. Way to avoid the actual question.

1. Cool with me.
2. If I really cared I would answer bluntly, but I don't really feel like delving into it because I've been through this situation before.

I'm not calling Mario a bad character in any way. I'm just saying, he's not an average character in relation to the rest of the cast, simply because he has lots of things that are basically average about him. Most characters have a few traits overexaggerated about them (like Fox and his ability to kill well) whilst I can't really see anything that Mario can do that several other characters can't do better.

Mario will always be the "second choice" character. However, the fact that he's the "second choice" for every situation means he can handle any situation.

The SBR has stated that he's not low tier? Where so? I am 90% sure that Mario will be low tier again once the next tier list comes out in a few days.

Weekly Character Discussion.

 

[Zhamy]

I am 90% sure that Mario will be low tier again once the next tier list comes out in a few days.

Then why don't you just wait until it comes out?

 

[-Mars-]

I'm not going to state reasons that've been stated a hundred times before because you guys never played against good Marios.

I'll just state that the only 'bad' area Mario has is his range and lack of early KO moves. Otherwise he's just fine.

At the very least, he's not low tier. Even the SBR has stated this.

"You've never played a good Mario" is a strawman's argument and has nothing to do with tier discussions. You haven't probably played a good CF but that doesn't keep you from knowing that he is the worst character in the game.

If he has no range and he has problems killing....how is he just fine? lol

This is exactly why Boss switched to Luigi against G-Reg at C3.

.
Most characters have a few traits overexaggerated about them (like Fox and his ability to kill well) whilst I can't really see anything that Mario can do that several other characters can't do better.

I don't see how an usmash OoS or a sliding usmash OoS killing at 100% on most of the cast is an exaggeration.

 

[HeroMystic]

"You've never played a good Mario" is a strawman's argument and has nothing to do with tier discussions. You haven't probably played a good CF but that doesn't keep you from knowing that he is the worst character in the game.

The fact that your reasons sucked so horribly gives such an indication. At least ROOOY had some truth to his.

If he has no range and he has problems killing....how is he just fine? lol

I won't bother answering you until you've done some research.

This is exactly why Boss switched to Luigi against G-Reg at C3.

Because Boss is the end-all-be-all Mario main amrite?

 

[-Mars-]

The fact that your reasons sucked so horribly gives such an indication. At least ROOOY had some truth to his.

I stated that Mario loses to characters with range, has problems landing the kill, and has a bad recovery....exactly what did I say that was wrong?

I won't bother answering you until you've done some research.

I've done plenty of lurking.

Because Boss is the end-all-be-all Mario main amrite?

He's certainly THE Mario and competes against elite players............when people think of elite Mario players, they think of Boss.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

snakeee *****, thats about all i know, and her midrange game is rediculous.

Oh god yeah he does. ZSS should be high if not high mid. I wouldn't be surprised if Peach was the bottom of high and ZSS was the top of mid or vice versa.



Mario's low tier. I've seen him played well. I've chained together for like 60 off of a grab to an Fsmash>Edgeguard. I still think he's low. I'd place him in the Diddy, Peach, Yoshi category. They might SEEM tricky but the more you play them the easier it gets. He's certainly a decent wildcard though.

Edit: And yeah. Boss IS the end-all-be-all Mario main. lol

 

[Shadow_Abyss]

zelda!!! no!!!! middle!!!... ive gotta stop playing horribly and raise zelda to high or top... marths already high, i think ill focus on raising zelda... thisll require me to become awesome... thisll be hard...

 

[Justblaze647]

zelda!!! no!!!! middle!!!... ive gotta stop playing horribly and raise zelda to high or top... marths already high, i think ill focus on raising zelda... thisll require me to become awesome... thisll be hard...

awesome first post... you better live up to all those expectations too...

jk

 

[Darknid]

With Mario, Yoshi, Diddy and Peach you are limited by your own skill and experience and not by the actual character. Mario's range isn't too bad, he just doesn't compare to some of the taller characters. Mario's fsmash is effective, even if it's one of few kill moves. Mario's game is floating and gimping, where he has plenty of options. He has a fast spike, FLUDD, cape, up B/bair into stage, can keep pestering people by jumping off of the wall below the edge(depending on the stage) and bothering them from there. It's not hard to get enemies to high percentages with Mario, and his cape can be extremely disruptive, not just to recoveries, and can easily having enemies freefalling to their death if they aren't careful.

I guess his main problem is that almost all of the new characters have ridiculous and amazing recoveries, so even though he was given a slight buff for Brawl and a new gadget, his gimping game isn't as effective as it would be in melee where a lot of the game was just hitting them until their recovery isn't enough to get them back on the stage. This rarely happens in brawl, you're usually either knocked off of the side, spiked or gimped in some way or you're getting back on the stage, but this still isn't true for Mario, kind of like Link. It's embarrassing, really.

Anyways, I don't know if I'd really put him in mid tier but he definitely has potential, as do Yoshi, Peach and Diddy.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't see how an usmash OoS or a sliding usmash OoS killing at 100% on most of the cast is an exaggeration.

because you give off the impression that people wont be looking INTENTLY for it. i dont care how fast, ranged or strong some move is, if you know its coming it makes it 10 times harder to hit with. and if they dont let you hit with it, than it isnt worth as much, that is why foxs upsmash is an exaggeration.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Why are we listening to da kid?

He SUCKS at fighters!!!!!

Tell them how I ***** the poop out of you in HD remix. lmao.

j/k j/k

<3 da kid.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Mario's not horrible. He gets screwed over by game mechanics. Just like Falcon. If Mario had his Tornado and could safely go far enough offstage to gimp I'd think more highly of him. But whereas Sonic has an amazing recovery and the ability to increase his air speed with spindash chasing Mario doesn't seem to have any of that. Correct me if I'm wrong because he is REALLY fun but his good points are limited by the physics of brawl.

 

[-Mars-]

because you give off the impression that people wont be looking INTENTLY for it. i dont care how fast, ranged or strong some move is, if you know its coming it makes it 10 times harder to hit with. and if they dont let you hit with it, than it isnt worth as much, that is why foxs upsmash is an exaggeration.

This is silly. You can say that about any KO move from any character........ except this isn't any KO move. Usmash isn't a limited move. It can be landed in three ways: OoS, out of a dash for punishment, or off of a dair. You can combo into it, halt aerial approaches, and use it for punishment. Also has a lot of priority and is fairly quick.Couple this with the fact that in general Fox forces approaches and it isn't hard to land at all. This isn't a Bowser or a Ganon fsmash<_<

You can't just ignore a character's main tool simply like that. Usmash is one of the best vertical KO moves in the game. In fact, i'd go as far as to place it in the top 5 for its speed+power ratio. Why Foxs' usmash is being called into question is beyond me. The whole reason why he is only three spots out of high tier is because of his KO ability.

Edit: "if they don't let you hit with it" LOL

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol.

Why are we listening to da kid?

He SUCKS at fighters!!!!!

Tell them how I ***** the poop out of you in HD remix. lmao.

j/k j/k

<3 da kid.

i got *****.

like I won one round because he was johning about talking to his dad at the time, and then he proceeded to perfect me like 2-3 times in a row.
Sagat is so broke'd

I also brought it up in the sonic boards to explain why i love brawl as a fighter more than other fighting games.

p.s. screw you EL,
j/k

but for real, c me in CvS2

This is silly. You can say that about any KO move from any character........ except this isn't any KO move. Usmash isn't a limited move. It can be landed in three ways: OoS, out of a dash for punishment, or off of a dair. You can combo into it, halt aerial approaches, and use it for punishment. Also has a lot of priority and is fairly quick.Couple this with the fact that in general Fox forces approaches and it isn't hard to land at all. This isn't a Bowser or a Ganon fsmash<_<

You can't just ignore a character's main tool simply like that. Usmash is one of the best vertical KO moves in the game. In fact, i'd go as far as to place it in the top 5 for its speed+power ratio. Why Foxs' usmash is being called into question is beyond me. The whole reason why he is only three spots out of high tier is because of his KO ability.

i dont understand why you are of the notion that im disregarding the move...

im not, its very good for all the reasons you said, but that doesnt change the fact that you arent going to be hitting with it as often as you would like if the guy knows that thats all you are going for.

its the reason the ICs arent god tier already, cus EVERYONE knows that ICs revolve their entire game around getting a grab and when people go out of their way to avoid getting grabbed, it makes it harder for the IC player.

im not disregarding everything, if anything you are disregarding the opponents ability to see and learn patterns.

for the sake of arguement lets say that tornado is the best move in the game.
if you play a tornado spammy MK, that even though the tornado is the best move in the game, its still going to be hard to land if the guy knows that all you are going to do is spam nado...

do you get my drift?

 

[-Mars-]

i dont understand why you are of the notion that im disregarding the move...

im not, its very good for all the reasons you said, but that doesnt change the fact that you arent going to be hitting with it as often as you would like if the guy knows that thats all you are going for.

its the reason the ICs arent god tier already, cus EVERYONE knows that ICs revolve their entire game around getting a grab and when people go out of their way to avoid getting grabbed, it makes it harder for the IC player.

im not disregarding everything, if anything you are disregarding the opponents ability to see and learn patterns.

for the sake of arguement lets say that tornado is the best move in the game.
if you play a tornado spammy MK, that even though the tornado is the best move in the game, its still going to be hard to land if the guy knows that all you are going to do is spam nado...

do you get my drift?

I only need to hit with it once a stock, and Fox is lightning quick.

Comparing to the nado was a bad comparison. The tornado is a full out commited approach that can easily be seen coming.....Foxs' usmash is not.

No Fox player is going to be spamming usmash around KO percentages. Similar to Falco he's going to SHDL while searching for an opening or waiting for his opponent to attack his shield

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I only need to hit with it once a stock, and Fox is lightning quick.

Comparing to the nado was a bad comparison. The tornado is a full out commited approach that can easily be seen coming.....Foxs' usmash is not.

No Fox player is going to be spamming usmash around KO percentages. Similar to Falco he's going to SHDL while searching for an opening or waiting for his opponent to attack his shield

Yeah, because a Fox baiting an opening for an Up-Smash isn't being predictable right?

But I digress.

Smooth Criminal

 

[-Mars-]

Yeah, because a Fox baiting an opening for an Up-Smash isn't being predictable right?

But I digress.

Smooth Criminal

If he's sitting back baiting for the KO, in no way is that a disadvantage for Fox. If somehow he is not able to land the KO, by that time I will have racked up enough damage for bair and dsmash to come into play.

 

[YagamiLight]

The way I see it, Fox's Up Smash is a fantastic move and is probably the most solid vertical killer in the game, when you consider the fact that it kills below 100% on most characters and comes out on frame 8. Not only that but Fox has solid ways to land the move: Out of shield, Dashing and Dair to Up Smash.

The main issue is: It's his primary killer. At 90% or so, people KNOW you can land an Up Smash to kill and as such will attempt their best to not be placed in a compromising situation, which is not terribly hard to do, even though the move is fast. They won't rush shields, they won't do laggy attacks in dash distance and they'll pay special attention to Fox's Down Aerial.

That lowers the value of it as a whole. Compare that to say, and this is since I'm familiar with him, Ike who at 100% has about 10 moves to kill you with you're not going to know which one he's going for and as such it's difficult to access the situation at all times and react properly.

The rest of Fox's killers strike deadly blows a considerable bit later, so (as marsulas said) you can use their slight hesistation to rack up more damage to lead to killing percentages for the rest of the moves, but then Up Smash has not played a direct role, it has played a more subtle, psychological role.

tl;dr Fox's Up Smash is useful whether or not you actually deploy it in a match. It's a great move if it hits, but if it doesn't you can elicit specific reactions from your opponents at the right percentages. Top tier move.

EDIT: 1000th post spent talking about Fox's Up Smash. Good enough.

 

[Justblaze647]

EDIT: 1000th post spent talking about Fox's Up Smash. Good enough.

That's silly.

you should've talked about pokemon for such an epic post count

 

[Kinzer]

I remember Kinzer posting in the Ike and Sonic boards about his dog dying <_<.

So you stalk the Sonic boards, huh? Well anyway that was only when this place wasn't as heavily moderated, I'm sure if I tried to pull the same shizz now it would be a different story. Besides that, sue us for getting to know each Sonic boarder on a personal level, what other board can honestly say that without knowing each other in real life, are as close to one another as we are?

It also helped relive me of the sadness.

 

[YagamiLight]

So you stalk the Sonic boards, huh? Well anyway that was only when this place wasn't as heavily moderated, I'm sure if I tried to pull the same shizz now it would be a different story. Besides that, sue us for getting to know each Sonic boarder on a personal level, what other board can honestly say that without knowing each other in real life, are as close to one another as we are?

It also helped relive me of the sadness.

I dunno dude, the Ike board is pretty close knit.

To be fair, I don't recall many people being jerks about you posting that your dog died. His name was Bowser, correct?

That was quite some time ago, have you gotten a new dog?

 

[Darknid]

the death of a fuzzy companion is nothing to be made fun of. I've lost a few myself

 

[Kinzer]

I dunno dude, the Ike board is pretty close knit.

To be fair, I don't recall many people being jerks about you posting that your dog died. His name was Bowser, correct?

That was quite some time ago, have you gotten a new dog?

That quote was directed towards Mars, Light. O.o

Anyway thanks for your concern, and yes I did get a new dog.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario's not horrible. He gets screwed over by game mechanics. Just like Falcon. If Mario had his Tornado and could safely go far enough offstage to gimp I'd think more highly of him. But whereas Sonic has an amazing recovery and the ability to increase his air speed with spindash chasing Mario doesn't seem to have any of that. Correct me if I'm wrong because he is REALLY fun but his good points are limited by the physics of brawl.

Tornado was horrible. FLUDD is definitely better.
Mario can use Cape Glide if he wanted to go far off-stage.
Sonic's recovery is indeed amazing. Mario's recovery is decent enough that he won't be getting gimped 24/7.

I will agree the Brawl physics screwed him over.

By the way, people should stop treating Boss like a messiah. He's definitely the best Mario, but even he doesn't use all of what Mario has to offer, like using FLUDD on-stage.

 

[PKNintendo]

Seriously Tornado was terrible in Melee. I missed my pseudo spike with down B!
64.

We can all agree that 64 versions of Mario (and Ness)>>> their current forms by far.

 

[Deleted member]

So you stalk the Sonic boards, huh? Well anyway that was only when this place wasn't as heavily moderated, I'm sure if I tried to pull the same shizz now it would be a different story. Besides that, sue us for getting to know each Sonic boarder on a personal level, what other board can honestly say that without knowing each other in real life, are as close to one another as we are?

It also helped relive me of the sadness.

Yoshi boards.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the point is, that he shouldnt be persecuted for coming to his friends to talk about something depressing.