The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[TP]

I thought that was the definition of an autocancel...

now im comfused.

From the stickied comprehensive guide:

- "Auto-Canceling" aerials
L-Canceling is gone, but there exists another trick for eliminating lag after your aerials. Many aerials can be auto-canceled by touching the ground before or after specific points in their animations, putting the character into a neutral standing position. Each move has different timings (there's probably a relationship between this and IASA frames), but with practice, Auto-Canceling should become second nature.
Note that touching the ground after 100% of an attack's animation completes is not auto-canceling because nothing is canceled. See the Lists section for a complete list of aerials compatible with Auto-Canceling.

On the list, none of Ganon's moves autocancel.

 

[Napilopez]

There are two definitions for autocancel, or at least there was back in the earlier days of brawl. One was the animation totally ending, the other one was landing the attacks at specific points.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thanks for that. i really didnt know that...

does that apply for moves that never have lag no matter when you land them? like sonics back air and wolfs b/u-air, and DKs back air?

 

[The Milk Monster]

I would imagine on moves with no lag, it wouldn't really apply, but I could be wrong.
What's up with Ness's down air? Almost every time I do it I get no lag whatsoever, but then there is that off occasion I get a whole buttload.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the move auto cancels as soon as the hitbox goes away basically.

but if you land while the hitbox is still active, you get super lag

 

[Nestec]

im not sure what u consider "****" but that seems like **** to me.

I'll show you what I consider "****"

On-topic though, for some reason I would expect Marth to have trouble killing at higher levels of play. Idk what I'm talking about though, I don't play Marth.

 

[hizzlum]

I'll show you what I consider "****"

On-topic though, for some reason I would expect Marth to have trouble killing at higher levels of play. Idk what I'm talking about though, I don't play Marth.

tipper fsmash
up-b
tipped fair
tipper nair
tipper dsmash

thats all that I was killed from in my bunch of friendlies against mikehaze, who is argueably the best marth in the US, and my DDD DI's hella well (good direction of my character+dair(attack momentum reduction)+fastfall makes me survive until 150% guaranteed, I typically survive until over 200% when playing diddys, sonic's and shiek's, so you could say that with my DI and mikehaze's kills, marth has a good amount of kill moves(not as much as say snake or G&W)

 

[Barge]

Dair spikes and charged B's as well. (Mostly situational, but still effective when applied)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

thats all that I was killed from in my bunch of friendlies against mikehaze, who is argueably the best marth in the US

lol..that's not exactly true, my friend.

Marth lacks safe KO moves. Tipper Nair is the closest thing to that but it barely matters. Marth dishes out so much DMG, that it shouldn't matter in the end.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

pssh. ken combos are still awesome in brawl. no joke.
hahaha

 

[Umby]

pssh. ken combos are still awesome in brawl. no joke.
hahaha

Yes, because it actually means the opponent fucked up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it meant the opponent effed up if you did it in melee too...

lol

 

[LumpyCPU...]

yet they are STILL awesome haha
yeah seriously, when it comes down to it, you can't combo someone if they don't mess up.
whether you messed up on spacing, or you missed an attack, or you rolled/blocked when you shouldn't have, the game comes down to punishment.
punishing mistakes is all you're doing in both games.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fail hitstun is fail in Brawl. Half of the **** that they hit me with I can a) attack right after they do and interrupt their "combo," b) DI far and away to do c) which is to airdodge.

>_>

Smooth Criminal

 

[hizzlum]

lol..that's not exactly true, my friend.
.

Emblem lord says he is the best rivaling neo and bardull as they all display prime marths for this metagame, mike haze places extremly well in socal(one of if not the best as reigions for the smash community) and many people say he could easily be considered the best marth, I have played some of the best in the west coast and they agree mikehaze could be considered the best marth to date.

Neo on the east and bardull and mike haze(mikehaze has been placing better now and is also ranked high on the socal brawl rankings) on the west are true marhs who have great marth tournament placement since relase till now, and with evidnece from norcal's most knwoeldegable why can i not say he is argueably the best marth in the states?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

hit stun equals poop.
i like it a lot in melee.
but just picture sheik ftilting 134 times before you can move. LOLOL

 

[adumbrodeus]

hit stun equals poop.
i like it a lot in melee.
but just picture sheik ftilting 134 times before you can move. LOLOL

*drools*

10infinitelocks

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Emblem lord says he is the best rivaling neo and bardull as they all display prime marths for this metagame, mike haze places extremly well in socal(one of if not the best as reigions for the smash community) and many people say he could easily be considered the best marth, I have played some of the best in the west coast and they agree mikehaze could be considered the best marth to date.

Neo on the east and bardull and mike haze(mikehaze has been placing better now and is also ranked high on the socal brawl rankings) on the west are true marhs who have great marth tournament placement since relase till now, and with evidnece from norcal's most knwoeldegable why can i not say he is argueably the best marth in the states?

Whoa way to forget Roy_R and Pierce. Plus Neo, Bardull and HRnut (who places a bit better) ... there are already 5 above him. Considering how many (good) Marths there are in tourneys, that's not that amazing.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i saw mikehaze playing doing well in a melee MM at WCSL. lol
i didn't know he was hella known for brawl.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think that at this point all of the lolhitstun crap about brawl is just talk, and people still have that mindset that brawl is a bad game just because you cant combo people the same way you could in melee.

In melee, if you had the best techskill in the world, you could beat 90%+ of the dudes out there.
Because brawl is less technical and physically demanding, people think that something is wrong with the game. When its really not better or worse, its just different. Some people prefer a game with superior techskill, some prefer a game more based on prediction and mindgames. Either is fine, but im just getting tired of people bagging on brawl because of problems that were circumvented 6 months ago


And if people cant pull combos in brawl, it just means that they arent mindgaming hard enough.

 

[Justblaze647]

I think that at this point all of the lolhitstun crap about brawl is just talk, and people still have that mindset that brawl is a bad game just because you cant combo people the same way you could in melee.

In melee, if you had the best techskill in the world, you could beat 90%+ of the dudes out there.
Because brawl is less technical and physically demanding, people think that something is wrong with the game. When its really not better or worse, its just different. Some people prefer a game with superior techskill, some prefer a game more based on prediction and mindgames. Either is fine, but im just getting tired of people bagging on brawl because of problems that were circumvented 6 months ago


And if people cant pull combos in brawl, it just means that they arent mindgaming hard enough.

This... is the world's only truth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think that at this point all of the lolhitstun crap about brawl is just talk, and people still have that mindset that brawl is a bad game just because you cant combo people the same way you could in melee.

QFT

In melee, if you had the best techskill in the world, you could beat 90%+ of the dudes out there.

This is very, very wrong.

Because brawl is less technical and physically demanding, people think that something is wrong with the game. When its really not better or worse, its just different. Some people prefer a game with superior techskill, some prefer a game more based on prediction and mindgames. Either is fine, but im just getting tired of people bagging on brawl because of problems that were circumvented 6 months ago

This might be true but Melee depends more on prediction + mindagames than on techskill too. Melee needs both while Brawl is heavily based on mindgames.

 

[Deleted member]

mikeHAZE wrote at 1:09 PM on Dec 18, 2008:
after this weekend

my singles name will be "steppin it up for burntsocks"

Lawl

 

[LumpyCPU...]

mikeHAZE wrote at 1:09 PM on Dec 18, 2008:
after this weekend

my singles name will be "steppin it up for burntsocks"

Lawl

good **** haha

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think that techskill determined a good majority of matches in melee, its just that when you had people of the same level of techskill than mindgames was the determining factor of matches. but i dont think mindgames were nearly as prevelent in melee as they were in brawl, which, if you think about it, would explain all of the brawl hate. Cus IT SEEMS (may not be true but it seems that way) that the people who bag on brawl are the ones that relied on superior techskill to win in melee.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nobody can win any figthing game by tech skill. In the end the smarter player wins, not the one with the most controller inputs.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Nobody can win any figthing game by tech skill. In the end the smarter player wins, not the one with the most controller inputs.

AGREED!!!!!!
look at KDJ or azen.
they're TOO good without being TOO technical.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im not so certain about that.

because you have to admit in melee, there is a ground level of prerequisite techskill that you had to know to even be good....

but we might be arguing different things here, im not sure.

 

[Deleted member]

It wasnt who had better tech skill at the higher levels, but you NEED quite a bit of it to compete at all in melee.

 

[da K.I.D.]

right, thats what i mean.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

ah ok. my bad. i thought you were saying the winner was determined by who has more techskill.
(which can only be true at very low levels of play, imo)

anyway, either i misread or misunderstood. so... yeah. haha

 

[Nestec]

Neo on the east and bardull and mike haze(mikehaze has been placing better now and is also ranked high on the socal brawl rankings) on the west are true marhs who have great marth tournament placement since relase till now, and with evidnece from norcal's most knwoeldegable why can i not say he is argueably the best marth in the states?

Lol, typing with your eyes closed, my friend?

---

I just really wish Brawl had as much Hitstun. I honestly love the game (in fact, at about an equal amount as Melee), but Brawl would just be soooo much better with more hitstun. And those airdodge physics f*** everything up too.

 

[RDK]

I think that techskill determined a good majority of matches in melee, its just that when you had people of the same level of techskill than mindgames was the determining factor of matches. but i dont think mindgames were nearly as prevelent in melee as they were in brawl, which, if you think about it, would explain all of the brawl hate. Cus IT SEEMS (may not be true but it seems that way) that the people who bag on brawl are the ones that relied on superior techskill to win in melee.

Wow. You guys are absolutely 100% wrong.

Mindgames aren't more required by Brawl than they are in Melee at all. It's just that the required level of tech skill in Brawl is so abyssmally low that more focus is put onto mindgames.

You have to remember that Brawl is basically Melee, just watered down beyond recognition. Melee required plenty of mindgames, especially when both players were close in regard to tech skill.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wow. You guys are absolutely 100% wrong.

Mindgames aren't more required by Brawl than they are in Melee at all. It's just that the required level of tech skill in Brawl is so abyssmally low that more focus is put onto mindgames.

You have to remember that Brawl is basically Melee, just watered down beyond recognition. Melee required plenty of mindgames, especially when both players were close in regard to tech skill.

This.

@KID

And my badmouthing of Brawl's lack of hitstun is crap? At this point, it's a bloody FACT. There's no getting around it.

But this isn't a Melee versus Brawl debate...so, I'll stop now. Besides I play both games, as much as I piss and moan about one of them (Brawl).

Smooth Criminal

 

[TP]

Wow. You guys are absolutely 100% wrong.

Mindgames aren't more required by Brawl than they are in Melee at all. It's just that the required level of tech skill in Brawl is so abyssmally low that more focus is put onto mindgames.

You have to remember that Brawl is basically Melee, just watered down beyond recognition. Melee required plenty of mindgames, especially when both players were close in regard to tech skill.

Please refrain from making blanket statements based on one or two outspoken posters.


I really hope Ganon isn't on the bottom of the next tier list. I'd be shocked if he was above anyone besides Falcon, and he may not even have that anymore. I think Ganon deserves to stay above Falcon, though I am a very biased source. At any rate, Link will move above Ganon for sure.

 

[-Mars-]

I think Jiggs is the worst character in the game and i've seen top-line Jigglypuffs.

Ganon has a lot of nice things he can do with AC aerials, Gerudo, insane KO power, and good range and priority. Ganon is better than CF and Jiggs.

 

[YagamiLight]

No matter what his other qualities may be, Ganondorf is the second strongest character in the game, and that is what is probably going to be keeping him from the last spot.

He's still bottom 5, of course, but that's ... better.

 

[RDK]

Please refrain from making blanket statements based on one or two outspoken posters.


I really hope Ganon isn't on the bottom of the next tier list. I'd be shocked if he was above anyone besides Falcon, and he may not even have that anymore. I think Ganon deserves to stay above Falcon, though I am a very biased source. At any rate, Link will move above Ganon for sure.

Were you quoted in my post? No. Which means I wasn't talking to you.

 

[TP]

Were you quoted in my post? No. Which means I wasn't talking to you.

When you said "You guys" I assumed you were talking about the Brawl community in a more general sense. I see lots of stereotypes about the Brawl community, so I'm rather defensive about statements like yours. If I was wrong, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[Xiivi]

Well then since this is starting to become a Brawl v. Melee thing, let's steer discussion back on track.

No one likes the list.