The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Supermodel From Paris]

Somebody fill me in on why Zss is considered "hard" for G&W?

For the same reason she's hard for other characters like him (Kirby is a good example). His best moves are aerials and ZSS' are just better (her uair beats or trades hits with his dair), his best stages are her best stages (and are better for her), she can pressure his shield and he can't really respond to it in a reliable way. This is also one of the few match-ups where her "spacing" tools like dsmash, side-b and paralyzer still work, lol. There are little things, too, like the fact that he's one of few characters her full jab combo works on every time (which is overpowered when it works), the fact that he dies pretty early unless he can get a bucket brake.

There are like 100 videos on Dazwa's old youtube account that show him vsing OBM and I don't think he's ever lost a set.

It isn't a matter of a chaingrab or easy gimp or anything, it's just that her character traits are at direct odds with his strengths.

I'm really surprised anyone is even shocked by this. ZSS can't have good match-ups or something?

She has other really good ones like ROB (even without the infinite it's really bad for ROB), Kirby (again I think 6:4 is being nice), and slight advantages on Olimar, ICs, and Dedede.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Like I said, MK imo is harder than the boards present against sheik (and zelda for that matter) from what I've experienced. Marth and Lucario are also pretty icky vs. them, although sheik can hold her own on those MUs more.

Mk isn't as bad for Shiek as people think, she has two ways to set-up Usmash on him which will kill him rather early and has the ground speed to get in on him. Needles also help.

Marth and Lucario are indeed icky for them.

 

[phi1ny3]

For the same reason she's hard for other characters like him (Kirby is a good example). His best moves are aerials and ZSS' are just better (her uair beats or trades hits with his dair), his best stages are her best stages (and are better for her), she can pressure his shield and he can't really respond to it in a reliable way. This is also one of the few match-ups where her "spacing" tools like dsmash, side-b and paralyzer still work, lol. There are little things, too, like the fact that he's one of few characters her full jab combo works on every time (which is overpowered when it works), the fact that he dies pretty early unless he can get a bucket brake.

There are like 100 videos on Dazwa's old youtube account that show him vsing OBM and I don't think he's ever lost a set.

It isn't a matter of a chaingrab or easy gimp or anything, it's just that her character traits are at direct odds with his strengths.

I'm really surprised anyone is even shocked by this. ZSS can't have good match-ups or something?

She has other really good ones like ROB (even without the infinite it's really bad for ROB), Kirby (again I think 6:4 is being nice), and slight advantages on Olimar, ICs, and Dedede.

And she ***** fox apparently.
Just for the record.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And she ***** fox apparently.
Just for the record.

Ehhh not really. The dsmash chain is like impossible to land because Fox should almost never get hit by dsmash. She has a very slight advantage in the match-up, maybe, but it isn't a huge advantage.

Most of her MUs are even (from 45 to 55)... she loses to Falco really badly, Squirtle ( 4/6 but beats PT overall) and Luigi can be kind of nasty. Otherwise her match-ups are either close or advantageous.

 

[Tien2500]

She has other really good ones like ROB (even without the infinite it's really bad for ROB), Kirby (again I think 6:4 is being nice), and slight advantages on Olimar, ICs, and Dedede.

I thought ICs had the advantage against ZSS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I thought ICs had the advantage against ZSS.

Wait, says who? ICs has been considered a 6:4 matchup forever.

 

[DMG]

For the same reason she's hard for other characters like him (Kirby is a good example). His best moves are aerials and ZSS' are just better (her uair beats or trades hits with his dair), his best stages are her best stages (and are better for her), she can pressure his shield and he can't really respond to it in a reliable way. This is also one of the few match-ups where her "spacing" tools like dsmash, side-b and paralyzer still work, lol. There are little things, too, like the fact that he's one of few characters her full jab combo works on every time (which is overpowered when it works), the fact that he dies pretty early unless he can get a bucket brake.

So... it's a good matchup for her because he can't respond to her shield pressure and... his aerials are apparently stuffed?

If you say so. Most players I've talked to think it is 50-50 ZSS at best.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So... it's a good matchup for her because he can't respond to her shield pressure and... his aerials are apparently stuffed?

If you say so. Most players I've talked to think it is 50-50 ZSS at best.

So you frequently talk about ZSS match-ups to good ZSS/GAW players? =/

 

[gm jack]

Umm, I've been smoking the same thing as the SBR, as they agree that Wolf, Sonic, and Fox are better than Shiek. AFAIK, MK hard-counters Shiek.

Hard counter? Sheik goes nearly even with MK. Sheik outranges him with Bair, is faster and generally has the speed to punish anything. Also, grab release chaingrab, to needles and to Usmash tipper is way too good. Doesn't matter if grabs are rare is they can do 20%+ damage each or kill at 90%

Pikachu and Ice climbersdont counter sheik?

Pikachu's chain grab is % dependant. If Sheik chain camps and throws needles to force projectile damage in return, she can get enough to escape the chain grab and then have an even fight at only a 25% or so disadvantage.

Also, down B is a legit move. Makes the IC match an advantage and evens up the pika match. Also helps in many others. While gettings lots of Zelda's hit in is hard, when you only need one, she is a very useful tool.

Doesn't G&W give Sheik a hard time? Or am I wrong?

G&W isn't that bad at all. Not good, but not horrible. The ratios are from a time when everyone was all omg Bair lolz. Since then, people have found ways to punish G&W's moveset, and Sheik is fast enough to bait and punish his simple play style.

 

[Red Arremer]

While gettings lots of Zelda's hit in is hard, when you only need one, she is a very useful tool.

That sounds wrong on sooooo many levels, but it's true, lol

 

[gm jack]

I do try. And trust me, it can be worse.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Sorry, but... How?
Samus is heavier than Link, is floaty, has better aerial movement and a FAR better recovery. The only thing Link has is that he's a bit better at momentum cancelling, but that's all.

She isn't that much heavier than Link, both characters are about the same weight.

(Marth)

FAir....UAir...Average...Character
162 ... 149 ... 155.5 ... Samus
156 ... 154 ... 155 ..... Link

Samus will almost always recover back on to the stage if she isn't KOed, but would die faster than Link with her "weak" momentum canceling compared to Link's "strong" momentum canceling.

 

[Red Arremer]

"Not that much" still is heavier. <_<

 

[Deoxys]

Hard counter? Sheik goes nearly even with MK. Sheik outranges him with Bair, is faster and generally has the speed to punish anything. Also, grab release chaingrab, to needles and to Usmash tipper is way too good. Doesn't matter if grabs are rare is they can do 20%+ damage each or kill at 90%

Oh, I guess the Shieks I've played weren't knowedgeable about the matchup.

 

[Luigi player]

"Not that much" still is heavier. <_<

Well if you look at those numbers Link seems like a better choice, because you usually DI up and it's really good to fall fast (like Dedede and Snake).

The difference is though, that Samus can recovery, that's why she's better than Link. Even Link can **** onstage, but his recovery sucks so much.
A DK can cargo him and go off the stage just a bit and dtoss him and he can't get back if you upB stall right, lol. It's laughable and somewhat sad.

 

[gm jack]

Oh, I guess the Shieks I've played weren't knowedgeable about the matchup.

Pretty much. It's a hard one to play, but her speed means she can keep up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait, says who? ICs has been considered a 6:4 matchup forever.

Ummm, why?

I was under the impression that the they can double-PS plasma whip (for stock), which means that ZSS can't play keep-away well enough to produce a winning match-up, and prior to the discovery it was ZSS' advantage.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

"Not that much" still is heavier. <_<

Depends on what you mean by that.

Well if you look at those numbers Link seems like a better choice, because you usually DI up and it's really good to fall fast (like Dedede and Snake).

The difference is though, that Samus can recovery, that's why she's better than Link. Even Link can **** onstage, but his recovery sucks so much.
A DK can cargo him and go off the stage just a bit and dtoss him and he can't get back if you upB stall right, lol. It's laughable and somewhat sad.

True enough, Link's recovery and aerial speed are pretty trash and are what is holding him so low, but Samus is worse overall. Her living long doesn't make much of a difference, if all she tries to do on stage is her obvious KO setup routines.

 

[PhantomX]

Wait, says who? ICs has been considered a 6:4 matchup forever.

IC players tend to think their mathcups are all better than they actually are (except maybe Snake)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

::Edited::

 

[Red Arremer]

Depends on what you mean by that.

Mathematical and logical reason?

2 is bigger than 1.
155.5 is bigger than 155.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Mathematical and logical reason?

2 is bigger than 1.
155.5 is bigger than 155.

But, by how much?

I might have over exaggerated when I said that Link lived higher, both characters should averagely live near the same percent.

 

[smashkng]

Samus will never be below Link or Jigglypuff due to the fact that he lives forever.

So does Link, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. All which are very bad characters just like Samus.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So does Link, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. All which are very bad characters just like Samus.

Take away Ganondorf from that list. Link lives longer.

 

[smashkng]

Take away Ganondorf from that list. Link lives longer.

But Ganon IS a very heavy character. He sucks? So does all the bottom tier characters. For all bottom tier winning a tourney with no secondaries that can deal with the matchups with people like M2K, SK92, Lain or Ally is like a mission impossible. But Ganon is a heavyweight, he is not a character that you'll kill early without a gimp.

 

[phi1ny3]

He has icky survival DI options and bad recovery methods for his weight though, then again, we're talking about the worst character in the game.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

But Ganon IS a very heavy character. He sucks? So does all the bottom tier characters. For all bottom tier winning a tourney with no secondaries that can deal with the matchups with people like M2K, SK92, Lain or Ally is like a mission impossible. But Ganon is a heavyweight, he is not a character that you'll kill early without a gimp.

Ganon's not a "very heavy character". He's about as heavy as Falcon.


I love bringing up this chart.

(Marth)

Fair ... Uair .. Avg ..Character
168 ... 164 ... 166 ..... DK
161 ... 170 ... 165.5 ... DDD
165 ... 165 ... 165 ..... Snake *
170 ... 160 ... 165 ..... Bowser *

Notice this massive gap?

159 ... 157 ... 158 ..... Ganon
157 ... 158 ... 157.5 ... C.Falcon *
162 ... 153 ... 157.5 ... Charizard *
158 ... 156 ... 157 ..... Ike
161 ... 152 ... 156.5 ... Wario
161 ... 151 ... 156 ..... Yoshi
162 ... 149 ... 155.5 ... Samus
156 ... 154 ... 155 ..... Link

You'd think that the slowest character in the game would have the most weight, but no. His recovery is also downright awful.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Somebody fill me in on why Zss is considered "hard" for G&W?

Zero suit destroys gaw on the ground with only jab and utilt.
Zero suit gets a free fair or uair after grab release, which (the grab) is landed by both dsmash and nB.
Zero suit is better in the air, with the only trouble being dair, which can be hard to intercept with uair because of the range and falling speed.
Zero suit can pretty much spam sideB to get gaw in bad positions.

However zero get's gimped and when she's on the ledge it's bad news, very bad news.
6/4 sounds correct though.

The problem with these kinds of match-ups is that GaW's know ZSS is bad, and don't take him against her, resulting in low overall knowledge, I'm lucky enough to live near one of the best gaws, but not everybody lives close to good players.


Just my opinion though

 

[smashkng]

He has icky survival DI options and bad recovery methods for his weight though, then again, we're talking about the worst character in the game.

Ganon is too slow in mobility, and his weight and fast falling speed makes him extremely chaingrabbable. Though he has tons of weaknesses. The chain grab issues are also shared with Captain Falcon though.

This is known with Wolf, I don't like that he gets ***** just cause of chain grabs and tilt locks. And his Shine doesn't help enough to deal with it.
The same goes with DK.

 

[Tien2500]

Wait, says who? ICs has been considered a 6:4 matchup forever.

How long is forever? Because the ICs game has improved a lot. ZSS doesn't have a ton of safe options against the ICS. Especially in terms of approaching. If ZSS seperates them she can easily get rid of Nana which prevents the matchup from being too bad. Still on a stage like FD or Smashville I'd give the advantage to Climbers.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS just did the ICs on the boards, go read what they had to say. We argued over it a lot, though.

 

[Clai]

You'd think that the slowest character in the game would have the most weight, but no. His recovery is also downright awful.

Jigglypuff runs stupefying slow, and the thought of a heavy Jigglypuff makes me laugh heartily. In all seriousness, though, Ganon can't use his weight to excuse his terrible speed. He's just terribly slow with no discernable benefits in this metagame.

Below Kirby makes me LOL... I think I'm one of the few who thinks Kirby needs to drop quite a bit. <_<

I personally think Kirby's overrated as well. His aerial mobility is a just a huge letdown when it comes down to trying to cross-up and mix your options.

As for ZSS, I'd put her just below G&W for now, but that might change when it comes to the next tier list. It's a shame not many people see her in action, because she really has a lot of things going for her.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I was under the impression that the they can double-PS plasma whip (for stock), which means that ZSS can't play keep-away well enough to produce a winning match-up, and prior to the discovery it was ZSS' advantage.

I thought they couldn't double PS.

 

[phi1ny3]

SDI owns a lot of rapid gains Kirby can get from fthrow, provided he still is a pretty solid character, but having a really bad IC MU makes me think he's more along the lines of B-tier.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Jigglypuff runs stupefying slow, and the thought of a heavy Jigglypuff makes me laugh heartily. In all seriousness, though, Ganon can't use his weight to excuse his terrible speed. He's just terribly slow with no discernable benefits in this metagame.

I think that he means slow regarding his attack speed, not his movement speed.

60:40 for ZSS vs G&W seems about right IMO. I've seen someone say it's as bad as 70:30 for G&W, but that implies that G&W really can't win at all, which is untrue.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think that he means slow regarding his attack speed, not his movement speed.

60:40 for ZSS vs G&W seems about right IMO. I've seen someone say it's as bad as 70:30 for G&W, but that implies that G&W really can't win at all, which is untrue.

What?

A 70:30 implies GAW would win about 30% of the time, which seems correct to me. Why on Earth does it imply he can't win?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think that he means slow regarding his attack speed, not his movement speed.

I mean slow regarding everything overall. Movement speed, aerial speed, attack speed, lag, etc.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Eh, I don't like to look at match up ratios like percentages. I prefer the "winnability" scale.

100:0 - Literally impossible to lose
90:10 - Practically impossible to lose
80:20 - Almost guarantee win
70:30 - Strong advantage
60:40 - Soft advantage
Etc.

You get the idea.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Still, 70:30 "implies" a strong advantage under that umbrella which is true. ZSS has a strong advantage and not just a soft one. It's not unwinnable though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh, I don't like to look at match up ratios like percentages. I prefer the "winnability" scale.

100:0 - Literally impossible to lose
90:10 - Practically impossible to lose
80:20 - Almost guarantee win
70:30 - Strong advantage
60:40 - Soft advantage
Etc.

You get the idea.

This is how I view it.

Although I see 80:20 as impossible on a competitive scale.