The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Red Arremer]

lol, psychological advantages.

Good players don't let themselves be discouraged by simply losing a stock or being behind. That's just stupid.

 

[Brinzy]

If you have me at 170% and I take your first stock, I'm gonna make it last until the next hit. I then come back with a fresh moveset and I need even less hits on this stock (with the fresh moveset) than before. First stock may not be the end of the match, but it sure as hell makes things interesting.

Note that I'm not talking psychological stuff. I'm talking simple stuff. Also, re-reading, the 170% thing isn't really necessary I guess, because if I KO you with 30% or 170% on me, I'm gonna take less risks so I can make sure that when I do lose my stock, I still have a damage advantage over you.

 

[mountain_tiger]

lol, psychological advantages.

Good players don't let themselves be discouraged by simply losing a stock or being behind. That's just stupid.

It doesn't work on everyone, obviously, but on some opponents I've played, it can lead them to panic and thus play less well. Though yeah, most good players would probably stay calm... It's a bit like how the bombings worked in World War 2, only in this case it's to a way lesser extent, obviously, and no one actually gets injured.

 

[Brinzy]

I dunno, this one guy slapped himself when I ohko'd him with Zelda. He turned pretty red. That could be damaging.

 

[Red Arremer]

I dunno, this one guy slapped himself when I ohko'd him with Zelda. He turned pretty red. That could be damaging.

Okay, if I get OHKO'd by a Zelda I think I'd be pissed too. xD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We must be using different functions of the word.
Really?
So Sethlon, Sk92, kismet etc etc are all beating high level MK's and placing higher than them as a result?

Are they beating these high level MK's? Regularly?

Do you even look at tournament results? Have you seen DEHF's results? Did you see how many tournaments he won from around late April to June alone? Do you know how many time he beat and outplaced DSF and Tyrant (Yes, the same Tyrant that took a set from M2K)?

Also, Sethlon taking a set from Dojo doesn't mean nothing either, even if Dojo took revenge ... Dojo ist #1 on the TX PRs...where's Sethlon?

Falco is easily top5 when it comes to doing well against MK (Snake, ICs, Diddy might be higher though).

Olimar and ROB have a 60:40 advantage over Snake.

olololololololol

Call me when a ROB beats a good Snake in a tournament set. Never happened, never will.
And lol @ Olimar having the advantage when Snake can easily 0-death him from a dthrow.

you have been saying dumb stuff this entire thread.

Sadly, I have to agree. You're usually a cool guy ShadowLink but you need to get some facts straight imo

fun fact

Lucarios fsmash tipper (monster hitbox) KO's earlier than marths tipper fsmash at the same % it KO's Lucario at. People regularly underestimate how powerful it is lol. 1st stock isnt the determining factor >_<

Marths fsmash should be better imo. It should either be stronger or have more range...

 

[Browny]

Call me when a ROB beats a good Snake in a tournament set. Never happened, never will.
And lol @ Olimar having the advantage when Snake can easily 0-death him from a dthrow.

way to kill your credibility

Also, do you even play this game, or just talk about it?

 

[da K.I.D.]

K.

Let's discuss Lucario. The guy who's in a lot of trouble if he's the first one to lose a stock.

Also, I'll quote my friend: "Does it get harder to KO Lucario when he gets more %?"

Not entirely, Frown. People who can hold a stock obviously do really well, and Shadow's right, lucario gets a buff for being behind. Conversely, if he's ahead, he also gets a debuff. It's not a huge amount on both sides, but it certainly is noticable (x1.2 if he's behind one stock, x1.4 if he's behind two, x.9 if he's ahead, etc., iirc).
The truth is, yes, he is a bit hard to regain on someone who has taken the lead, but chances are, if the lucario has done +100, he'll get a kill decently (he's got some decent kill moves and options), and it will eventually even out by the end of that stock if he's playing smart. Lucario can also hold onto a stock lead crazy good. It's really a shame nobody huge is dedicating lucario as their main, he's got no true soft counters (let alone hard), and he's got everything in the "better than average" zone (except maybe start up, which is still pretty decent considering what other properties they've given to his moves).
I know this sounds really bias, but I know that it's pretty straight forward.
We've also made an ever-so-slight improvement to his recovery (directing the bounce when he hits the stage so he can get away more farther from punishers who were hanging on the edge). Honestly, I think he should be in A tier, it's really a lack of solid represenatives that's hurting him.

So to answer your friend's question Frown, Overall, yes.

I think the main problem with lucario is that his good qualitys are highly overhyped.
When people say lucario, they usually think of a few key points.
1. ******** f smash
1a. fsmash is good but can be easily punished by either rolling behind it early, simply jumping over it, or even just powersheilding

2. Stupid roll
2a. his roll is good as well, but no matter how good a roll is, its still a roll and punishable by nature.

3. Aura boost
3a. if by chance the opponent gets a low % kill on lucario than that positive is completely negated. not saying its easy to gimp lucario, but the boost he gets from being above 100 far exceeds the one he gets from being a stock down

Do you even look at tournament results? Have you seen DEHF's results? Did you see how many tournaments he won from around late April to June alone? Do you know how many time he beat and outplaced DSF and Tyrant (Yes, the same Tyrant that took a set from M2K)?

Also, Sethlon taking a set from Dojo doesn't mean nothing either, even if Dojo took revenge ... Dojo ist #1 on the TX PRs...where's Sethlon?

Falco is easily top5 when it comes to doing well against MK (Snake, ICs, Diddy might be higher though).

Agreed

olololololololol

Call me when a ROB beats a good Snake in a tournament set. Never happened, never will.
And lol @ Olimar having the advantage when Snake can easily 0-death him from a dthrow.



Sadly, I have to agree. You're usually a cool guy ShadowLink but you need to get some facts straight imo

Its not just me...

Marths fsmash should be better imo. It should either be stronger or have more range...

way to kill your credibility

Also, do you even play this game, or just talk about it?

well, you are both from pretty scrubby countrys that are most likely bad at the game sooooo....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

well, you are both from pretty scrubby countrys that are most likely bad at the game sooooo....

Says the guy from Rochester ...

 

[mountain_tiger]

well, you are both from pretty scrubby countrys that are most likely bad at the game sooooo....

So you're saying that these people suck at the game just because of where they live, even though you've never seen them play? If so, that's completely and utterly ridiculous.

 

[Browny]

I think the main problem with lucario is that his good qualitys are highly overhyped.
When people say lucario, they usually think of a few key points.
1. ******** f smash
1a. fsmash is good but can be easily punished by either rolling behind it early, simply jumping over it, or even just powersheilding

2. Stupid roll
2a. his roll is good as well, but no matter how good a roll is, its still a roll and punishable by nature.

3. Aura boost
3a. if by chance the opponent gets a low % kill on lucario than that positive is completely negated. not saying its easy to gimp lucario, but the boost he gets from being above 100 far exceeds the one he gets from being a stock down.

what, what and what

you might wanna consider re-reading that post. 1 first of all doenst apply. no one (not even Lucario) can roll dodge behind its max range and jumping will just get you owned by the massive lingering hitbox. PS applies to every fsmash in the game. His roll is the best in the game. overhyped or not, no character has a better one. and 3 just makes no sense. Most people seem to consider aura a weakness for the majority of the match since the usual 'KO him at 100' mentality exists everywhere, people very often ignore the fact he has amazing DI and can live for a very long time if he avoids blatant KO moves... hes very evasive, landing a powerful finisher on him isnt exactly easy

 

[mountain_tiger]

what, what and what

you might wanna consider re-reading that post. 1 first of all doenst apply. no one (not even Lucario) can roll dodge behind its max range and jumping will just get you owned by the massive lingering hitbox. PS applies to every fsmash in the game. His roll is the best in the game. overhyped or not, no character has a better one. and 3 just makes no sense. Most people seem to consider aura a weakness for the majority of the match since the usual 'KO him at 100' mentality exists everywhere, people very often ignore the fact he has amazing DI and can live for a very long time if he avoids blatant KO moves... hes very evasive, landing a powerful finisher on him isnt exactly easy

Continuing from the last point, if the opponent DIs and momentum cancels correctly, no one in the game is incapable of surviving below 120%, provided that the attack isn't extremely powerful. I mean, even Jigglypuff can survive past 100% in the hands of a pro, and since Lucario is way heavier than she is.... yeah, you get the idea. And aura is fantastic if the Lucario is against someone who has trouble killing (I have first-hand experience of this ).

 

[Klemm]

Dang, I expected Peach to move up at least one. Staying in her place is better than dropping, and at least she's rocking C tier.

And how did Zelda drop so much? How is Shiek better than her? Someone care to explain? Zelda's smashes pretty much wipe the floor with anything Shiek has, not to mention Dinn's Fire.

Sonic +8?? I find his speed overwhelming and his attacks completely lack range and the ability to send people flying. Pretty much all he has is his awe-some recovery and speed, which I cannot utilize.

 

[Umby]

Pretty much all he has is his awe-some recovery and speed, which I cannot utilize.

This is why Sheik is above Zelda and why Sonic rose eight spots.

 

[Brinzy]

And how did Zelda drop so much?

She's too slow, she's too tall for a light character, she has bad approaches, she has one of the worst aerial games around, she has a terrible grab that is really not worth using unless you can predict a shield, she has a bad projectile, she has a bad reflector that is put to better use on things that don't need reflecting, she has extreme blindspots that are abusable by practically everyone, she has an amazing defensive game that doesn't get put to much use because she's always on the offensive, she sucks at edgeguarding, she sucks on the ledge, she sucks at dealing with projectile abuse, she can't deal with camping, she is not placing well, she can't beat MK consistently, she can't beat Snake consistently, she can't beat anyone else soundly, and she has nobody playing her.

How is Shiek better than her?

See above.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Dang, I expected Peach to move up at least one. Staying in her place is better than dropping, and at least she's rocking C tier.

She's probably about right where she is. She'd easily be higher if she had some more kill moves, though.

And how did Zelda drop so much? How is Shiek better than her? Someone care to explain? Zelda's smashes pretty much wipe the floor with anything Shiek has, not to mention Dinn's Fire.

Zelda has tons of kill potential, but unfortunately not much else. SoR listed most of it. the main things are that she lacks a safe approach, she's a sitting duck in the air, and most of her attacks are easily telegraphed. Oh, and her crap recovery too.

Sonic +8?? I find his speed overwhelming and his attacks completely lack range and the ability to send people flying. Pretty much all he has is his awe-some recovery and speed, which I cannot utilize.

The fact that you can't utilise it doesn't mean that no one can.

 

[Brinzy]

Wow, I missed her recovery.

Yeah, it's a +60 frame piece of ****.

 

[Vermy]

She's probably about right where she is. She'd easily be higher if she had some more kill moves, though.



Zelda has tons of kill potential, but unfortunately not much else. SoR listed most of it. the main things are that she lacks a safe approach, she's a sitting duck in the air, and most of her attacks are easily telegraphed. Oh, and her crap recovery too.



The fact that you can't utilise it doesn't mean that no one can.

Uair kills, Utilt kills, Sweetspot fair/bair kills. All hard to hit with, but they're kill moves all the same.
She kinda has kill potential. She suffers from c stick syndrome. Her smashes are her probably her most reliable sources for spamming and racking damage, so by the time your opponent's at killing percentages, they've diminished a fair bit.

 

[Red Arremer]

Hence why combining Sheik with Zelda is a great idea... I've found myself at big ease since I've started using both together, especially against Marth.

 

[Brinzy]

Yes, they need to be combined but so far they're not because "we don't want them combined because they totally switch tier positions when they down B", as some put it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Do you even look at tournament results? Have you seen DEHF's results? Did you see how many tournaments he won from around late April to June alone? Do you know how many time he beat and outplaced DSF and Tyrant (Yes, the same Tyrant that took a set from M2K)?

I know I'll probably get shot for it.
bu I personally dont think DSF and Tyrant are on the same level as M2K.
I think their gameplay style is certainly better, but they aren't as good.

Also, Sethlon taking a set from Dojo doesn't mean nothing either, even if Dojo took revenge ... Dojo ist #1 on the TX PRs...where's Sethlon?

n exception to the rule proves the rule.
How often does Sethlon beat out Dojo?
Has Dojo won their encounters more often?

Sadly, I have to agree. You're usually a cool guy ShadowLink but you need to get some facts straight imo

Don't be silly.
It can't b aid as fact until it is absolutely proven. Just as people thought Snake was the best character, just as people thought he countered MK.

I disagree with Falco being even with MK.
There really is no reason for him to be for the reasons I made earlier.
Especially considering that his offensive abilities are stronger than Marth and allow him to do much more to Falco once he gets in than Marth can.

 

[Nestec]

I know I'll probably get shot for it.
bu I personally dont think DSF and Tyrant are on the same level as M2K.
I think their gameplay style is certainly better, but they aren't as good.

I agree.
For one thing, Tyrant DEFINITELY loses some cred for losing to a Ness.
:/

 

[Red Arremer]

Why does Tyrant losing to a very underdeveloped and unknown character mean he loses creditibility as top Meta Knight?
He's probably one of the best players in the US.

Either he didn't know the matchup so he got owned, or, alternatively, Ness' capabilities are simply underrated. Maybe he does better against Meta Knight than everyone thought.

Oh right, only scrubs think Meta Knight could be defeated or has no matchups he wins 90:10. Right. Sorry, my bad.

 

[Sosuke]

Ness Vs. MK is pretty... a lot in MK's favor. >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why does Tyrant losing to a very underdeveloped and unknown character mean he loses creditibility as top Meta Knight?
He's probably one of the best players in the US.

Either he didn't know the matchup so he got owned, or, alternatively, Ness' capabilities are simply underrated. Maybe he does better against Meta Knight than everyone thought.

Oh right, only scrubs think Meta Knight could be defeated or has no matchups he wins 90:10. Right. Sorry, my bad.

I agree with this actually.
I dont see why people should rag on him for it.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness Vs. MK is pretty... a lot in MK's favor. >_>

Excuse me, but haven't played for a while or anything, but this pretty much common knowledge.

But more to the point, what's happened to the metagame. Lucas is above Ness and Mario? What happened.

 

[Brinzy]

Ness vs. MK fight is not super into MKs favor. Never has been and never will be. Please don't mention "LOL GIMPING NESS'S RECOVERY" because unless you are another MK, Jigglypuff, and *maybe* a few more out there, you're getting your *** gimped just as hard, without that chance of blowing MK the **** up like Ness can.

EDIT: Oh wow, look who it is. Have you seen the Ness board? They miss you. (I think.)

 

[Red Arremer]

Ness Vs. MK is pretty... a lot in MK's favor. >_>

Considering that FOW (?) also took a game from Mew2King, I suppose either this is untrue, or both him and Tyrant were not used to the matchup, which is also a possible explanation.

If you NEVER faced a good Ganondorf. Believe me. You'll get utterly *****.

I doubt, though, that Ness vs. Meta Knight is a lot in Meta Knight's favor, if Meta Knight was a hard counter, the two of the best Meta Knight players wouldn't have been defeated by a Ness - may it be one game or the whole set.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness vs. MK fight is not super into MKs favor. Never has been and never will be. Please don't mention "LOL GIMPING NESS'S RECOVERY" because unless you are another MK, Jigglypuff, and *maybe* a few more out there, you're getting your *** gimped just as hard, without that chance of blowing MK the **** up like Ness can.

Aha, sorry. It's just been so long.

I guess I can't be called a Ness main. I haven't played for ages.
It's nice to see a friendly face. How's it been?

 

[Brinzy]

Well it wasn't really directed towards you.


It's been good. It's a good thing to forget about places like these, you know?

 

[PKNintendo]

Well it wasn't really directed towards you.


It's been good. It's a good thing to forget about places like these, you know?

Heh.

I haven't really forgotten. But really, I guess I just gave up. I really wasn't the greatest poster
so I just split. Curiosity got the better of me though.

Anything new happen to the Ness metagame?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ness' metagame hasn't advanced much in the past few months, unfortunately.

 

[Nestec]

PKNintendo, ROFLMFAO at the "Mario swarm" link in your sig...

Why does Tyrant losing to a very underdeveloped and unknown character mean he loses creditibility as top Meta Knight?
He's probably one of the best players in the US.

He can still get away with being called one of the greatest players if he didn't know the match-up? I thought the top players would know EVERY match-up...
But of course, maybe FOW is just better than Tyrant, which sorta doesn't sound right... o.O

OR GASPP!!! Ness counters MK!! /jk

Ness' metagame hasn't advanced much in the past few months, unfortunately.

I hope his sudden jump in the tourney scene isn't just temporary...
Friggin C-Rank. Nuts.

Yeah, as far as I know, nothin too new with Ness.

Lucas is above Ness and Mario? What happened.

Lucas was (at first) doing better than them on the tourney scene. But that's really it. Ness' match-ups are quite better than Lucas'...so... :/

EDIT: ****, I hope that doesn't start another friggin NessLucas debate...

 

[ShadowLink84]

upsets happened Nestec.

 

[Zankoku]

How can a top player know every matchup if the likelihood of facing any players of the underrepresented characters is extremely low? As I remember FOW initially did not qualify out of pools, and made it into brackets on the goodwill of someone leaving the touranment. Had this actually happened, Tyrant would not have had to face a Ness, because FOW was the only Ness player there. A single fortunate occurence made the difference between Tyrant playing against a Ness and Tyrant playing against someone who wasn't Ness.

60+ players in one tournament, you're not gonna get the chance to play them all.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Some of you guys seem to be implying that pros by definition can never, ever lose a match. Everyone has their mistakes in Smash, even the pros. It's like golf. Everyone in golf has a bad hole at some point, even the pros do, but since the pros have them far less often they win tournaments. See what I'm getting at here?

 

[phi1ny3]

I think the main problem with lucario is that his good qualitys are highly overhyped.
When people say lucario, they usually think of a few key points.
1. ******** f smash
1a. fsmash is good but can be easily punished by either rolling behind it early, simply jumping over it, or even just powersheilding

2. Stupid roll
2a. his roll is good as well, but no matter how good a roll is, its still a roll and punishable by nature.

3. Aura boost
3a. if by chance the opponent gets a low % kill on lucario than that positive is completely negated. not saying its easy to gimp lucario, but the boost he gets from being above 100 far exceeds the one he gets from being a stock down




well, you are both from pretty scrubby countrys that are most likely bad at the game sooooo....

Sounds like you've been talking to people who play against scrubbier lucarios, not those who main him.
-Most understand fsmash isn't invincible, but it certainly gets props for a pretty nice move, and if used correctly, should yield results.

-Roll is a roll, and at high levels of play, you don't use it to say "hello, I'm going to roll when you're doing something safe". Roll is when they either commit to zone too close (usually by air) to where you're originally standing or for something more "unsafe". On the killing subject, it's quite obvious the % boost is better, but considering that what damage lucario was supposed to do before the gimp, lucario can actually land the kill in the 50s and then work on evening if he plays patiently. Lucario actually still gets somewhat decent in kill potential lower than most people conceive. His moveset is pretty decent, beyond fsmash, dair, AS, and roll like the common misconception, with a decent air and ground game that while don't have the best of startup have amazingly small endlag.
-Lucario's recovery + recovery options make him about average (he's got nice ranged, disjointed, and lingering aerials to ward off ledgehog/gimp attempts), good second jump, dair stall (not spam) which comes in great use for trying to recover from above and baiting an aerial by moving away, BAS that can stage-spike a ledgehogger at higher percents, and curvability, plus the little boost from ES bounce is helping a little more), and while still punishable, wallcling isn't so bad either. imo some of lucario's moveset in overhyped to the point of underrating.

F.O.W. = Full of Win, lol. Ness has good matchups and tools that I think should help him get up a bit more. Players are still players, even the best have to watch out, as scrubbyish and ethereal as it sounds.

Some of you guys seem to be implying that pros by definition can never, ever lose a match. Everyone has their mistakes in Smash, even the pros. It's like golf. Everyone in golf has a bad hole at some point, even the pros do, but since the pros have them far less often they win tournaments. See what I'm getting at here?

Lol like this match?
On 4:42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w3LzYlw5bU

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Ness vs. MK fight is not super into MKs favor. Never has been and never will be. Please don't mention "LOL GIMPING NESS'S RECOVERY" because unless you are another MK, Jigglypuff, and *maybe* a few more out there, you're getting your *** gimped just as hard, without that chance of blowing MK the **** up like Ness can.

EDIT: Oh wow, look who it is. Have you seen the Ness board? They miss you. (I think.)

I've gotten stage meteored trying to gimp a ness before. LOL Their up+b is pretty scary as ****, thats something ill always respect no matter what character im on

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah you have to practically be right on the edge with good air speed or attempting to gimp them already if you want to gimp that recovery (barring some exceptions, of course)

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

You can gimp Ness by being above him. Good luck trying to do that though.