KillerSOS
Smash Champion
Tier lists are a joke.
I don't belive them at all. Matchups is the only worthwhile thing to look at.
I don't belive them at all. Matchups is the only worthwhile thing to look at.
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So you don't believe metaknight is better than captain falcon?Tier lists are a joke.
I don't belive them at all. Matchups is the only worthwhile thing to look at.
Unless your M2K lol.How you play is more important actually. Tier lists just represent what people are playing. People who pick characters based on tiers and not by what's the best way they can possibly win are dumb and never win tournaments.
Meta has a postive matchup on pretty much everyone. So he is better vs the whole cast due to the MATCHUP.So you don't believe metaknight is better than captain falcon?
If even 1 character is better than another character, a tier list has just been made. oshi-
If he's better than the whole cast due to a MATCHUP. Then that means he's better than them in GENERAL.Meta has a postive matchup on pretty much everyone. So he is better vs the whole cast due to the MATCHUP.
Just because Snake is higher doesn't me he does not get destroyed by Olimar
matchups... not matchup.If he's better than the whole cast due to a MATCHUP. Then that means he's better than them in GENERAL.
Tier lists are made right when the game is complete and sent out to the consumers.
We just have to figure it out.
I guess you didn't even read what a tier list is.matchups... not matchup.
Tier lists are for nubs who think playing "top tier" will make you win every time.
My ZSS friend kills every MK he plays.
No it means that ZSS beats MK.I guess you didn't even read what a tier list is.
A tier list does not define a players skill. It's just to get a general idea of what character is the best/has best matchups/best tournament rankings.
Just because your "friend" beats every MK that faces him. Doesn't mean ZSS is better than metaknight. It means your friend is better than the other player that he is facing.
Wowwowowowow.No it means that ZSS beats MK.
And yes I know what a "tier list" means. It means nothing.
There is a thread for tourney rankings. This is completly different. And both the MK player and ZSS player are very good. He gets abused even though he is "SS" tier (lol at SS)
That's funny. I said the exact same thing about 7 months ago. Everyone laughed at me and called me an idiot.Look, against those characters we already have an advantage lol. If we can beat characters without camping, then no need to do it.
We beat TL, we beat Falco, we beat ROB, and we beat Olimar. We are using this on Wario's HARDER matchups, where we used to think we always had to approach.
For example, we used to think Dedede annihilated us since he had a CG, Grab release to Kill, etc. Now, however, it's pretty hard for Dedede to win if all we do is get a % lead and force him to approach. Now Dedede is forced to approach with sub par tools, and we aim to either punish him for sucking at approaching or just avoiding it and making him do it again.
I think it is barely in our favor, just barely. I used to think it was even (even wrote a matchup summary for you) but after thinking about it some more I think Wario has a small edge. Even if Wario tries to camp Olimar, it's really tedious and almost better to just approach you anyways. I just think Olimar dies so soon vs Wario and he can't afford to make many mistakes against a killing machine like Wario.That's funny. I said the exact same thing about 7 months ago. Everyone laughed at me and called me an idiot.
So can I change the Olimar-Wario matchup to Wario's favor in my matchup thread?
wow.No it means that ZSS beats MK.
And yes I know what a "tier list" means. It means nothing.
There is a thread for tourney rankings. This is completly different. And both the MK player and ZSS player are very good. He gets abused even though he is "SS" tier (lol at SS)
Than Why is yoshi so low? his matchups are at least those of a midtier, and he has goodmatchups vs. snake and MKA tier list is not much more than just a list that combines matchups and metagame. i.e. it's most based off matchups against the characters that have other good matchups and are likely to see tourney play. It's simply a list that orders characters primarily by their matchups as they exist in the current metagame. I don't see why you're saying that tier lists mean nothing and then claim that a one of the fundamental ingredients of a tier list is most important, when a tier list is mostly just an applied matchup chart <_<
Tier list have flaws.Than Why is yoshi so low? his matchups are at least those of a midtier, and he has goodmatchups vs. snake and MK
because he in fact, does NOT have that good of matchups against MK and snake, and he has bad matchups against other high tiers.Than Why is yoshi so low? his matchups are at least those of a midtier, and he has goodmatchups vs. snake and MK
Mainers of a character don't, and shouldn't care about their character's change in location on the tier list.Olimars must be having a good day
The tiers accurately represent the current metagame. It's not that they are flawed (when done properly as this one may be), but rather that they have the ability to change when new things are discovered. It's not a flaw, it's just not a representation of the future, but rather one of the present.Tier list have flaws.
Unless we figure out everything about this game, it will continue to be like that.
I wholeheartedly agree.How you play is more important actually. Tier lists just represent what people are playing. People who pick characters based on tiers and not by what's the best way they can possibly win are dumb and never win tournaments.
That doesn't matter. Metaknight still has an advantage. If we took every ZSS user in the world vs every metaknight user in the world and made them vs each other the metaknights would win.My ZSS friend kills every MK he plays.
-Zero priorityWhy is Captain Falcon so low?
It's not so much that the distance is bad, but that it just isn't very safe.I wouldn't say bad recovery but yeah...
I don't think you are understanding the logic behind the tier list. Some characters are, overall, better than others. Of course individual match-ups matter. But because your friend beats MK with ZSS all the time doesn't mean much in tier placements. Heck, it doesn't even mean that much for the ZSS versus MK matchup. I main Sonic, and I beat MK mains all the time. I can count the MK mains I've lost to with a single hand. And that's supposed to be Sonic's worst match-up according to many if not most Sonic mains. I do very well against MK. It doesn't mean Sonic is better than MK, and it doesn't mean Sonic has the advantage in the match-up. On the other hand Sonic has an even match-up with Olimar somehow, and I do horribly against him.No it means that ZSS beats MK.
And yes I know what a "tier list" means. It means nothing.
There is a thread for tourney rankings. This is completly different. And both the MK player and ZSS player are very good. He gets abused even though he is "SS" tier (lol at SS)
lolwut? No respect. Yoshi has a counter for every one of MK's moves. >.> I haven't played a lot of good Snakes so I'll leave it at that.because he in fact, does NOT have that good of matchups against MK and snake, and he has bad matchups against other high tiers.
XDMainers of a character don't, and shouldn't care about their character's change in location on the tier list.
Tourney results represent the current metagame . Tiers (should) represent the final metagame. It's that word "potential." It's in the OP, check it out.The tiers accurately represent the current metagame. It's not that they are flawed (when done properly as this one may be), but rather that they have the ability to change when new things are discovered. It's not a flaw, it's just not a representation of the future, but rather one of the present.
This post is full of lulz.lolwut? No respect. Yoshi has a counter for every one of MK's moves. >.> I haven't played a lot of good Snakes so I'll leave it at that.
XD
Haven't you been reading the thread? At least half of it is Sonic and Yoshi mains complaining. They do care. Probably shouldn't, though, because they'll never get what they want.
Tourney results represent the current metagame . Tiers (should) represent the final metagame. It's that word "potential." It's in the OP, check it out.
I'm a "scrub" (that word should be banned, seriously), and I think tiers exist...tiers exist, don't be a scrub.
Don't forget: Possibly the crappiest hitboxes in the game (except for uair)-Zero priority
-Bad recovery
-Easily camped
-Easily juggled
-No reliable GTFO me move
You're probably not a scrub if you actually are willing to learn the game, become better, and play competitively. But from what you do in friendlys, might be considered scrubish in the tournament scene. If you were playing to win at a tournament, would you really not edge hog a character like olimar/ivysaur. Or suicide when your opponent dies at 10%?I'm a "scrub" (that word should be banned, seriously), and I think tiers exist...
Tell me, do you know anything about us at all? Have you even taken two seconds to look at our playstyles? Because from the looks of it, you didn't. From the looks of it, you think that a scrub is, by definition, a bad player with no idea about competitive play whatsoever. You, my dear, are both wrong and an idiot.
A scrub is somebody who plays with various moral rules: don't attack somebody who just tripped (unless it's through Banana Peels, obviously...), don't attack players while they're taunting, don't spam Palutena's Arrow from the other side of FD, don't edgehog, don't destroy the Wario Bike, don't main Meta Knight... The list goes on. Keep in mind that not every scrub has the same set of rules, though: I have no qualms continuously using Bullet Seed (Ivysaur equivalent of PA) until it's DI'd out of, and I do edgehog whenever I can. I do stick by rules 1 and 3, though (unless it concerns Sonic, obviously). And I certainly don't main Meta Knight.
The point is: that does not make us bad players. It just makes us kinder than the "playing to win" *******s who rely on luck or rudeness (trips and taunts, respectively). And yes, we have to use a bit more skill in order to make up for that disadvantage. So be it. It makes the experience of winning all the more satisfying.
Power to the scrubs!
Yoshi may "have a counter for every one of MK's moves", but MK has a counter to Yoshi's existance, and more than one counter to anything the yoshi can try.lolwut? No respect. Yoshi has a counter for every one of MK's moves. >.> I haven't played a lot of good Snakes so I'll leave it at that.
fine, i wasn't going to word it like this, but you're making me. No one that matters cares about how their character's tier placement changes. Alternatively, No one who can think cares about how their character's tier placement changes.XD
Haven't you been reading the thread? At least half of it is Sonic and Yoshi mains complaining. They do care. Probably shouldn't, though, because they'll never get what they want.
Tourney results represent what's happened, the tier list represents what's likely to happen.Tourney results represent the current metagame . Tiers (should) represent the final metagame. It's that word "potential." It's in the OP, check it out.
Counter to Yoshi's existence? What's that supposed to mean? All I'm saying is that a Yoshi main at the top of his game can go even with a MK main at the top of his game. (Not that he actually will)Yoshi may "have a counter for every one of MK's moves", but MK has a counter to Yoshi's existance, and more than one counter to anything the yoshi can try.
I see. You're entitled to your opinion. But I think it's unwise to go around marking off people as stupid and not worth the air they breathe.fine, i wasn't going to word it like this, but you're making me. No one that matters cares about how their character's tier placement changes. Alternatively, No one who can think cares about how their character's tier placement changes.
If that were the case then the tier list would be the same as the entire compilation of tourney results. If it happens over and over again, it makes sense that it will most likely happen in the future.Tourney results represent what's happened, the tier list represents what's likely to happen.
I'm pretty sure you're over estimating the matchup. I know a lot of Yoshis like to claim that he has a relatively even matchup against MK, but that's usually regarded as false, with MK having a decent advantage in the matchup.Counter to Yoshi's existence? What's that supposed to mean? All I'm saying is that a Yoshi main at the top of his game can go even with a MK main at the top of his game. (Not that he actually will)
Stupid people breathing air is an essential part of our ecosystem and fuels the renewing cycle of our atmosqhere as it is continuously processed by living organisms of all kingdoms of life. I wouldn't say their not worth the air they breathe, because it's necessary that they do so, but they definately shouldn't feel any excitement/hate about their main's tier list placement change, as that really doesn't make any difference to them at all.I see. You're entitled to your opinion. But I think it's unwise to go around marking off people as stupid and not worth the air they breathe.
See, a tier list will rank the characters according to the current metagame. A tourney results ranking list (such as Ankoku's) will show how characters are doing in tournaments. The main difference is that player skill is accounted for in a tournament results ranking. If Azen decided to all Lucario and win because he's awesome, lucario would be ranked higher in a tourney results ranking list than he might be in a tier list because the metagame might dictate that lucario is a worse character and that Azen just happens to be amazing (which he is).If that were the case then the tier list would be the same as the entire compilation of tourney results. If it happens over and over again, it makes sense that it will most likely happen in the future.
I was just over at the DK boards and they have it as 50-50, so I see where you're coming from. I guess the world will never know (or agree at least).I'm pretty sure you're over estimating the matchup. I know a lot of Yoshis like to claim that he has a relatively even matchup against MK, but that's usually regarded as false, with MK having a decent advantage in the matchup.
Haha, I so love tangents. They probably shouldn't care about the tier change, but if they do it's no reason to say they don't matter. (Which is pretty general... don't matter in relation to what?)Stupid people breathing air is an essential part of our ecosystem and fuels the renewing cycle of our atmosqhere as it is continuously processed by living organisms of all kingdoms of life. I wouldn't say their not worth the air they breathe, because it's necessary that they do so, but they definately shouldn't feel any excitement/hate about their main's tier list placement change, as that really doesn't make any difference to them at all.
This is kinda funny because I've made this point in the last few pages, so I don't think you quite understand what I mean. Even the tier list voters are divided on this subject, so I don't expect everyone to see it my way.See, a tier list will rank the characters according to the current metagame. A tourney results ranking list (such as Ankoku's) will show how characters are doing in tournaments. The main difference is that player skill is accounted for in a tournament results ranking. If Azen decided to all Lucario and win because he's awesome, lucario would be ranked higher in a tourney results ranking list than he might be in a tier list because the metagame might dictate that lucario is a worse character and that Azen just happens to be amazing (which he is).