KillerSOS
Smash Champion
Tier lists are a joke.
I don't belive them at all. Matchups is the only worthwhile thing to look at.
I don't belive them at all. Matchups is the only worthwhile thing to look at.
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
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So you don't believe metaknight is better than captain falcon?
If even 1 character is better than another character, a tier list has just been made. oshi-
thesage
Smash Hero
How you play is more important actually. Tier lists just represent what people are playing. People who pick characters based on tiers and not by what's the best way they can possibly win are dumb and never win tournaments.
Browny
Smash Hater
careful barge, treading on 'dividing by 0' territory there
KillerSOS
Smash Champion
KillerSOS
Smash Champion
Meta has a postive matchup on pretty much everyone. So he is better vs the whole cast due to the MATCHUP.
Just because Snake is higher doesn't me he does not get destroyed by Olimar
If he's better than the whole cast due to a MATCHUP. Then that means he's better than them in GENERAL.
Tier lists are made right when the game is complete and sent out to the consumers.
We just have to figure it out.
KillerSOS
Smash Champion
matchups... not matchup.
Tier lists are for nubs who think playing "top tier" will make you win every time.
My ZSS friend kills every MK he plays.
I guess you didn't even read what a tier list is.
A tier list does not define a players skill. It's just to get a general idea of what character is the best/has best matchups/best tournament rankings.
Just because your "friend" beats every MK that faces him. Doesn't mean ZSS is better than metaknight. It means your friend is better than the other player that he is facing.
KillerSOS
Smash Champion
No it means that ZSS beats MK.
And yes I know what a "tier list" means. It means nothing.
There is a thread for tourney rankings. This is completly different. And both the MK player and ZSS player are very good. He gets abused even though he is "SS" tier (lol at SS)
Wowwowowowow.
No, it means your friend is way better than the probably sucking metaknights that he's facing.
Tourney rankings =/= tier list.
And I believe that thread is very inaccurate in itself.
I think it was Ally/Holy Knightmare who boosted C.Falcon past GNW in the tournament rankings, when he only used CF ONCE in a match. And CF still got the full points for the win.
Yes, incredibly accurate.
Your logic is saying that if I beat a character with a certain character, regardless of skill level, even if items are on and its 300% super sudden death, that character is better.
Let me beat you with captain falcon and say hes the best character in the game
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That's funny. I said the exact same thing about 7 months ago. Everyone laughed at me and called me an idiot.
So can I change the Olimar-Wario matchup to Wario's favor in my matchup thread?
I think it is barely in our favor, just barely. I used to think it was even (even wrote a matchup summary for you) but after thinking about it some more I think Wario has a small edge. Even if Wario tries to camp Olimar, it's really tedious and almost better to just approach you anyways. I just think Olimar dies so soon vs Wario and he can't afford to make many mistakes against a killing machine like Wario.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
A tier list is not much more than just a list that combines matchups and metagame. i.e. it's most based off matchups against the characters that have other good matchups and are likely to see tourney play. It's simply a list that orders characters primarily by their matchups as they exist in the current metagame. I don't see why you're saying that tier lists mean nothing and then claim that a one of the fundamental ingredients of a tier list is most important, when a tier list is mostly just an applied matchup chart <_<
Milos
Smash Lord
wow.
ok
dumba$$
a tier list defines the capacity to which a character can be used consistently in competitive play.
tiers exist, don't be a scrub.
Than Why is yoshi so low? his matchups are at least those of a midtier, and he has goodmatchups vs. snake and MK
Kinzer
Mammy
Tier list have flaws.
Unless we figure out everything about this game, it will continue to be like that.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
because he in fact, does NOT have that good of matchups against MK and snake, and he has bad matchups against other high tiers.
Mainers of a character don't, and shouldn't care about their character's change in location on the tier list.
The tiers accurately represent the current metagame. It's not that they are flawed (when done properly as this one may be), but rather that they have the ability to change when new things are discovered. It's not a flaw, it's just not a representation of the future, but rather one of the present.
Witch_
Smash Cadet
I wholeheartedly agree.
As for my $0.02, you aren't going to be good unless YOU play the way YOU feel most comfortable playing.
And contrary to popular belief, EVERYONE doesn't have an amazing MK/Snake. People need to quit whining so much and enjoy this for what it is - a game.
That doesn't matter. Metaknight still has an advantage. If we took every ZSS user in the world vs every metaknight user in the world and made them vs each other the metaknights would win.
I don't take the teir list as what character is better i take it as what character has a better advantage.
EruptingBurningFinger
Smash Cadet
Why is Captain Falcon so low?
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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*looks at above posters user name
AND NOW HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAT END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Couldn't resist.
AND NOW HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAT END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Couldn't resist.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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-Zero priority
-Bad recovery
-Easily camped
-Easily juggled
-No reliable GTFO me move
Kinzer
Mammy
I wouldn't say bad recovery but yeah...
Too bad manliness isn't counted. Shoot if that were the case, Falcon would be banned for always getting automatic wins, and I hear that playing with anybody but Falcon would shatter gamecube controllers due to the sheer amount of man the Wii oozes.
Too bad manliness isn't counted. Shoot if that were the case, Falcon would be banned for always getting automatic wins, and I hear that playing with anybody but Falcon would shatter gamecube controllers due to the sheer amount of man the Wii oozes.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
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It's not so much that the distance is bad, but that it just isn't very safe.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I don't think you are understanding the logic behind the tier list. Some characters are, overall, better than others. Of course individual match-ups matter. But because your friend beats MK with ZSS all the time doesn't mean much in tier placements. Heck, it doesn't even mean that much for the ZSS versus MK matchup. I main Sonic, and I beat MK mains all the time. I can count the MK mains I've lost to with a single hand. And that's supposed to be Sonic's worst match-up according to many if not most Sonic mains. I do very well against MK. It doesn't mean Sonic is better than MK, and it doesn't mean Sonic has the advantage in the match-up. On the other hand Sonic has an even match-up with Olimar somehow, and I do horribly against him.
As Scotu said, a tier list summarizes the present Metagame and matchups. If MK has no disadvantageous matchups against anyone, and several advantageous match-ups when looking at things objectively, he will be the best charcter in the game.
Try to envision it in your head. Its quite logical that unless characters are exactly the same, there will always be a character better than the other, even if only a tiny bit better.
Tier lists don't dictate which character will win an individual round.And tier placements don't directly correlate to match-ups. Sonic goes even with the ICs, while ganon, who isn't so much below Sonic, is destroyed by them. Yoshi has one of the best matchups against MK in the game, yet he's below characters that have worse matchups.
Blah blah blah
RyanPF
Smash Journeyman
lolwut? No respect. Yoshi has a counter for every one of MK's moves. >.> I haven't played a lot of good Snakes so I'll leave it at that.
XD
Haven't you been reading the thread? At least half of it is Sonic and Yoshi mains complaining. They do care. Probably shouldn't, though, because they'll never get what they want.
Tourney results represent the current metagame . Tiers (should) represent the final metagame. It's that word "potential." It's in the OP, check it out.
Orange_Soda_Man
Smash Ace
why do we care about how the characters line-up in the tier list? Maybe there's a drive for us to be happy when characters we enjoy are perceived as being better. I was happy sonic moved up.
Should I be happy for that? Even if not, are there other reasons than 'likeness' that determine our reactions to the tier list?
Just as an aside, should this thread be renamed to "The Official SBR-B Brawl Class List v1.0"?
Should I be happy for that? Even if not, are there other reasons than 'likeness' that determine our reactions to the tier list?
Just as an aside, should this thread be renamed to "The Official SBR-B Brawl Class List v1.0"?
This post is full of lulz.
Kage Me
Smash Ace
I'm a "scrub" (that word should be banned, seriously), and I think tiers exist...
Tell me, do you know anything about us at all? Have you even taken two seconds to look at our playstyles? Because from the looks of it, you didn't. From the looks of it, you think that a scrub is, by definition, a bad player with no idea about competitive play whatsoever. You, my dear, are both wrong and an idiot.
A scrub is somebody who plays with various moral rules: don't attack somebody who just tripped (unless it's through Banana Peels, obviously...), don't attack players while they're taunting, don't spam Palutena's Arrow from the other side of FD, don't edgehog, don't destroy the Wario Bike, don't main Meta Knight... The list goes on. Keep in mind that not every scrub has the same set of rules, though: I have no qualms continuously using Bullet Seed (Ivysaur equivalent of PA) until it's DI'd out of, and I do edgehog whenever I can. I do stick by rules 1 and 3, though (unless it concerns Sonic, obviously). And I certainly don't main Meta Knight.
The point is: that does not make us bad players. It just makes us kinder than the "playing to win" *******s who rely on luck or rudeness (trips and taunts, respectively). And yes, we have to use a bit more skill in order to make up for that disadvantage. So be it. It makes the experience of winning all the more satisfying.
Power to the scrubs!
baldurseeyou
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
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- 15
wow. Falco has gotten to top tier
Frown
poekmon
Don't forget: Possibly the crappiest hitboxes in the game (except for uair)
You're probably not a scrub if you actually are willing to learn the game, become better, and play competitively. But from what you do in friendlys, might be considered scrubish in the tournament scene. If you were playing to win at a tournament, would you really not edge hog a character like olimar/ivysaur. Or suicide when your opponent dies at 10%?I'm a "scrub" (that word should be banned, seriously), and I think tiers exist...
Tell me, do you know anything about us at all? Have you even taken two seconds to look at our playstyles? Because from the looks of it, you didn't. From the looks of it, you think that a scrub is, by definition, a bad player with no idea about competitive play whatsoever. You, my dear, are both wrong and an idiot.
A scrub is somebody who plays with various moral rules: don't attack somebody who just tripped (unless it's through Banana Peels, obviously...), don't attack players while they're taunting, don't spam Palutena's Arrow from the other side of FD, don't edgehog, don't destroy the Wario Bike, don't main Meta Knight... The list goes on. Keep in mind that not every scrub has the same set of rules, though: I have no qualms continuously using Bullet Seed (Ivysaur equivalent of PA) until it's DI'd out of, and I do edgehog whenever I can. I do stick by rules 1 and 3, though (unless it concerns Sonic, obviously). And I certainly don't main Meta Knight.
The point is: that does not make us bad players. It just makes us kinder than the "playing to win" *******s who rely on luck or rudeness (trips and taunts, respectively). And yes, we have to use a bit more skill in order to make up for that disadvantage. So be it. It makes the experience of winning all the more satisfying.
Power to the scrubs!
SCOTU
Smash Hero
Yoshi may "have a counter for every one of MK's moves", but MK has a counter to Yoshi's existance, and more than one counter to anything the yoshi can try.
fine, i wasn't going to word it like this, but you're making me. No one that matters cares about how their character's tier placement changes. Alternatively, No one who can think cares about how their character's tier placement changes.
Tourney results represent what's happened, the tier list represents what's likely to happen.
RyanPF
Smash Journeyman
Counter to Yoshi's existence? What's that supposed to mean? All I'm saying is that a Yoshi main at the top of his game can go even with a MK main at the top of his game. (Not that he actually will)
I see. You're entitled to your opinion. But I think it's unwise to go around marking off people as stupid and not worth the air they breathe.
If that were the case then the tier list would be the same as the entire compilation of tourney results. If it happens over and over again, it makes sense that it will most likely happen in the future.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
I'm pretty sure you're over estimating the matchup. I know a lot of Yoshis like to claim that he has a relatively even matchup against MK, but that's usually regarded as false, with MK having a decent advantage in the matchup.
Stupid people breathing air is an essential part of our ecosystem and fuels the renewing cycle of our atmosqhere as it is continuously processed by living organisms of all kingdoms of life. I wouldn't say their not worth the air they breathe, because it's necessary that they do so, but they definately shouldn't feel any excitement/hate about their main's tier list placement change, as that really doesn't make any difference to them at all.
See, a tier list will rank the characters according to the current metagame. A tourney results ranking list (such as Ankoku's) will show how characters are doing in tournaments. The main difference is that player skill is accounted for in a tournament results ranking. If Azen decided to all Lucario and win because he's awesome, lucario would be ranked higher in a tourney results ranking list than he might be in a tier list because the metagame might dictate that lucario is a worse character and that Azen just happens to be amazing (which he is).
RyanPF
Smash Journeyman
I was just over at the DK boards and they have it as 50-50, so I see where you're coming from. I guess the world will never know (or agree at least).
Haha, I so love tangents. They probably shouldn't care about the tier change, but if they do it's no reason to say they don't matter. (Which is pretty general... don't matter in relation to what?)
This is kinda funny because I've made this point in the last few pages, so I don't think you quite understand what I mean. Even the tier list voters are divided on this subject, so I don't expect everyone to see it my way.
The tier list says that it shows an estimation characters will do in the current metagame on the highest level of play. Tournaments are the highest level of play, correct? And they are only played in the current metagame, correct? So they would be one and the same. My point is that the tier list should not attach itself to "the current metagame." I don't know if that's possible (see into the future?) but it seems foolish to establish a tier list that simply echoes tournament rankings with slight variations.
I respect your opinion and I understand why you think that way. I simply believe differently.
spartan334
Smash Apprentice
Why do poeple even care where people are on the tier? I mean unless you only main a char because of tier then it shouldn't matter.=/
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