So, finding out exploits of the game's physics, fiddling around with hacking Brawl, and figuring out how Brawl's physics work. People need to know this in order to have a good understanding of Brawl's metagame?
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
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Mattmiston
Smash Apprentice
haha wow, i was looking at this tier list and the ssbm one...
and i realized that toon/young link have the same position at #17 on both of them. craaaazy
and i realized that toon/young link have the same position at #17 on both of them. craaaazy
But compared to the amount of characters, young link gets an F and toon link gets a High D
Trillion
Smash Ace
Actually, figuring out how things work and why they work is only the most logical way of advancing the metagame.
I don't think you have to know exactly why wavedashing works in order to know how to use it effectively.
Trillion
Smash Ace
Knowing WHY wavedashing (for example, since you picked it for your own) works could lead to more discoveries that could further the game even more. What that would be, I don't know, but I''m sure something could come of it.
This may have already been found, I haven't really researched it, but I was wondering why only down c-stick can result in snakedashing, etc. Don't the other c-stick direction's during a run have the same properties, or maybe I just am not fast enough to do it. Perhaps, there are other weird properties of the down c-stick that can be abused in a similar fashion. Why can Pikachu do his quick attack cancel? Shouldn't other characters be able to do something similar? Why can't Fox run his firefox into the ground and still jump out of it before actually landing? Why does this only work for Pikachu? There are many mysteries that could lead to even more discoveries if we can explain them better.
Both of my examples may already have been figured out, I don't know if they have or not, but regardless, the idea still exists that understanding how something works may lead to even more discoveries.
This may have already been found, I haven't really researched it, but I was wondering why only down c-stick can result in snakedashing, etc. Don't the other c-stick direction's during a run have the same properties, or maybe I just am not fast enough to do it. Perhaps, there are other weird properties of the down c-stick that can be abused in a similar fashion. Why can Pikachu do his quick attack cancel? Shouldn't other characters be able to do something similar? Why can't Fox run his firefox into the ground and still jump out of it before actually landing? Why does this only work for Pikachu? There are many mysteries that could lead to even more discoveries if we can explain them better.
Both of my examples may already have been figured out, I don't know if they have or not, but regardless, the idea still exists that understanding how something works may lead to even more discoveries.
I don't see how any of that has to do with being the responsibility of the SBR.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
LOL falcon still last wtf so many pple up his game tho.
im always gonna think marths too high and kirby should move up juuust ONE
mk in his own tier ftw and falco being 3rd
im always gonna think marths too high and kirby should move up juuust ONE
mk in his own tier ftw and falco being 3rd
Trillion
Smash Ace
The people in the SBR are supposed to be the "best and brightest." In my opinion, if someone is going to find some kind of game - changing information, it will be our best and brightest people. It is my belief that if the best and brightest members of the community work on solving the mysteries of the game and work to provide the community with new knowledge, that the metagame will develop even faster. If we always just leave it up to the general population, then we will require much more time. Also, in the smash back room, they won't be sifting through "Advanced Techs" that noobs find that aren't really ATs at all or through ATs that have already been discovered (which I know that I am personally guilty of having done on several occassions). I feel that rather than make a controversial tier list this early in the game, the SBR could be more productively helping the community.
The SBR was never given the requirement of "helping the community." It was a private forum to discuss smash stuff and make tier lists until at some point when MLG was asking for a standard ruleset they became the authority on tournament ruleset/stagelist/rulings. Frankly finding things like why you can live longer by doing an aerial out of hitstun (you can fastfall as soon as you break out of tumble with the aerial) doesn't seem to be as high of a priority as figuring out which stages go where and making decisions on broader things (Dedede's chaingrab, hacked Brawl, Meta Knight).
SCOTU
Smash Hero
Also note that Finding stuff out about the game isn't left up to the general public to be slow about it. What you're describing the SBR should do is EXACTLY what the Smash Lab does.
Trillion
Smash Ace
I agree that helping the community was never really a requirement of the SBR, but I guess what I'm saying is that I think it should be (more on that in a minute). The broader things you mention are also things that I want to see the SBR make a decision about. Such things as Dedede's chain grab as well as the Ice Climbers chain grab, laser and jab locks and all other locks, etc. The SBR could be trying to help establish rules about controversial issues like that, which I will admit I HAVE seen them post their current status on those things, but I really just want to see a concrete decision on those sort of things.
Mostly, I just have a big concern about the tierlist. I don't think it is being taken as serious as it needs to be. Let's consider a hypothetical situation for a moment. Let's say that a person gets brawl and has been playing and wanting to get better. He (or she) discovers smashboards. They realize that the people here have information that can help them to get better. They come across the tierlist. They see that Metaknight is the best character in the game and decides that they will play Metaknight to make sure that they win more. Meanwhile, Ness gets ignored. Perhaps this person would have made a great Ness main and would have found a new AT for Ness or seriously advanced Ness's metagame or found a great new strategy for Ness that really changes the way that everyone views Ness. Instead, this person goes on to be an average Metaknight player.
I firmly believe that the more people who play a character, the faster that character's gameplay evolves. I think it only makes sense to think that. You could probably argue otherwise, but I truly believe that. If more and more people are drawn to play high tier characters, then another character may go overlooked completely.
I don't want to see a tierlist that hurts a certain character's potential metagame simply because it was made based on our opinions from very early in Brawl's lifespan.
Mostly, I just have a big concern about the tierlist. I don't think it is being taken as serious as it needs to be. Let's consider a hypothetical situation for a moment. Let's say that a person gets brawl and has been playing and wanting to get better. He (or she) discovers smashboards. They realize that the people here have information that can help them to get better. They come across the tierlist. They see that Metaknight is the best character in the game and decides that they will play Metaknight to make sure that they win more. Meanwhile, Ness gets ignored. Perhaps this person would have made a great Ness main and would have found a new AT for Ness or seriously advanced Ness's metagame or found a great new strategy for Ness that really changes the way that everyone views Ness. Instead, this person goes on to be an average Metaknight player.
I firmly believe that the more people who play a character, the faster that character's gameplay evolves. I think it only makes sense to think that. You could probably argue otherwise, but I truly believe that. If more and more people are drawn to play high tier characters, then another character may go overlooked completely.
I don't want to see a tierlist that hurts a certain character's potential metagame simply because it was made based on our opinions from very early in Brawl's lifespan.
That's what I mean. A Smash Lab shouldn't be necessary. SamuraiPanda wanted applicants to the Smash Lab to come up with a reason why Dedede's chain grab goes stale on certain characters (if I remember correctly). But, if the SBR is where our "best and brightest" Dedede players are, then wouldn't it only make sense that those people , being the best and brightest, would be much quicker at figuring that out? A Smash Lab basically would be composed of the same people that SBR would be composed of.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Pretty sure I've done it with A.
Pikachu's QA gives him a couple of aerial frames to do it after the bounce. Fox is put in the helpless state. Just the way it was programmed. Although MK's cape has a similar property hence the IDC.
I MIGHT be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's just how it goes.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
QFT, the smash research community looks like its going to be more of a public resource, which will be very helpful.
awsomesauce
Smash Apprentice
why do people say gandorf can kick falcons a** when they that falcon is awesome
Trillion
Smash Ace
Those were just examples as to what I meant. I wasn't sure if they were found yet or not, but I think you get the point I was trying to make.
But, since we are on the topic, what bounce are you referring to with Pikachu's QA? I assume you don't mean frames after the QA is over, because that would mean he can cancel it even without hitting the ground, so I'm a little confused what part you are referring to.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
The SBR is comprised of the best and brightest Metagamers of the game. The smash lab consists of the best and brightest researchers of the game. There is no need for those to groups of people to be the same. While yes, they sometimes are, they aren't always, but do separate things because that's what each group is best at. The SBR does stuff like tier lists, the Smash Lab does stuff like research. Those two things aren't the same.
philbobjoe
Smash Journeyman
When Pikachu's QA hits the ground it pops up a bit. From there you can do an aerial, do another QA, land and do anything, and so forth. That's just the way it was programmed and now it is being abused.
It's quite the opposite.
People take the tier list as an insult to their skill with their character and work twice as hard to bring them up.
Heck, just look at the yoshi and sonic mainers. They are pissed.
Basically,
Excuse my scrubby question since I only come on here once in a while but...
What makes Ness better than Lucas? Is there a simple point to it? Because personally, I like Lucas' A moves much better as well as PK Thunder. I see a lot of people saying Ness should be better than Lucas but I just can not see why. I used to main Ness in melee and abandoned him after playing Lucas in Brawl.
What makes Ness better than Lucas? Is there a simple point to it? Because personally, I like Lucas' A moves much better as well as PK Thunder. I see a lot of people saying Ness should be better than Lucas but I just can not see why. I used to main Ness in melee and abandoned him after playing Lucas in Brawl.
Frate
Smash Journeyman
Ugh, I don't like how Link is still considered the bottom five.
I'm surprised at the movement in the tier list - guess if I didn't live so isolated from any Smash tournaments, I'd know. However, I don't even know if I'm considered "decent" or not as I have played Brawl with like five different people in my life.
Glad to see Olimar move up, even though I seldom play him. ;3
I'm surprised at the movement in the tier list - guess if I didn't live so isolated from any Smash tournaments, I'd know. However, I don't even know if I'm considered "decent" or not as I have played Brawl with like five different people in my life.
Glad to see Olimar move up, even though I seldom play him. ;3
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
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- 3,679
No... It's more indepth than that. Lucas has horrible matchup, he CANNOT deal with the top/high tiers. Has difficulty with the mid tiers AND low tiers.
He's moveset is bland at best. He's supposed to be balanced at ground and aerial moves, but Sakurai failed at that. Badly. Excluding that, no one plays him so he has horrible tourney results too.
Mr. Rogu
Smash Ace
so you seriously think that bowser is better than fox?? wow
Bowser doesn't get auto-gayed by three different characters (he does by one, though). Snake isn't "barely even good." You seriously think you're at a point where you can accurately gauge everyone? Wow.
Chances are you have no idea how Bowser plays.
Conclusively
Smash Journeyman
Yes. He is. I use Fox as a secondary, so don't say I hate Fox. Bowser has many things over Fox. He doesn't get infinited/locked to either death or extremely high percents except by DDD&ICs. His grab release is crazy. His attacks come out fast and have extremely good KB [Jab, Forward Tilt, Down Tilt], he has a good OOS game with Fortress. There's probably more, but I don't play a lot of Bowser.
Mr. Rogu
Smash Ace
wow, sorry smash isnt my whole life and i dont play this game 24/7
...I'm sorry for answering your question? I don't even go to tournaments, so I don't even know what you're trying to imply here.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
I Hypothesize that in the next tier list, Captain Falcon will move up. Seems somewhat likely, unless the Ganondorfs of the world decide to swarm the T-scene.
Yoshi shall increase by June 5th, I see it coming.
Yoshi shall increase by June 5th, I see it coming.
In that case stop trying to prove points that you know nothing about.
Eternal Yoshi
I've covered ban wars, you know
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You know, if Snake has the S tier to himself you might as well call it the Snake Tier LOL.
Also, Bowser, unlike Fox, can use his forward b to sacrifice himself when he has a percentage advantage.
Also, Bowser, unlike Fox, can use his forward b to sacrifice himself when he has a percentage advantage.
Umby
Smash Master
So what you're saying is, you entered a thread that involved numerous arguments about an in-depth topic, made a post that reflected your own personal opinion, and upon being provided with evidence that disproves the implication made by your statement, you retort by further implying that you don't have enough experience with the game to know what the hell you're talking about?
You, sir, are brilliant.
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
umby gives me a boner
Supernova757
Smash Apprentice
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Yeah, it definetely makes sence. And it seems that Falco has moved up.
Xiahou Dun
Smash Ace
Einstein's theory of relativity states that in accordance to _____ the ____ is ____
Err no I think it's ___
OMG I'M JUST NOT A NERD LIKE YOU IS ALL!!
Err no I think it's ___
OMG I'M JUST NOT A NERD LIKE YOU IS ALL!!
Ganondorf_the_King
Smash Apprentice
.........................hi -.-
SCOTU
Smash Hero
Ness also gets thoroughly buttsexed by marth to the point where he's just as shafted as lucas in high tier matchups as well.
Yes. Bowser gets ***** by DDD. Fox gets almost as ***** by Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS, MK, and ICs. That's pretty bad.
Plain and simple: if you know you don't know what you are talking about, please don't claim that other people (who do know what they are talking about) are wrong about something. Uninformed posting is one of the dumbest things you can do, especially if you know that you don't know **** about the topic.
Fox can Forward b to sacrifice himself when he has a percentage advantage too... you must not be doing it close enough to the edge.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
LMAO! I love you.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
what??
how so?
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