The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[RDK]

I don't know RDK considering that Sonic has risen and has moved up at best 2 spots, I cant help but feel some curiosity as to how the tier list is made.
I mean if a character is showing that they are doing better then that should account for it.

So what if Sonic places well in some tournaments? Those tournaments are probably garbage. If all we had to go on was tournament results, than Sonic could very well be S-tier if every tournament was garbage and had Sonics placing high in each one.

The reason tier lists aren't completely contrived using tournament results is because tournament results only help the SBR get a vague idea of how well characters are faring. It's not an objective standard on how good a character actually is.

Saying he should be higher when his placement results and common sense clearly don't reflect that is ludicrous.

Poor babies.

I'm not impressed.

I'm pretty convinced that nothing I can say here is going to change anything, but what is problematic to me:

1. This voting process was pretty outrageous. The fact that there was even a vote to begin with is stupid, but putting them on a list and averaging their scores? The ****ing Gideon Bible is more scientific than this.

2. Multiple characters who frequently have strong showings at tournaments are placing low because less people play those characters so there's less opportunity for them to place high. Do you know how many tier whores play Snake and R.O.B. (oh, I'm sorry, used to play R.O.B., he's only B Tier now lolololzzzz).

People tierwhoring is usually a good indication that the character is good. It's not really the case with Sonic.

Sonic can have a million mains. It doesn't matter one bit unless he's placing consistently well at good tournaments.

 

[Psychoace]

Tier lists aren't based 100% off tournament results, nor are they based 100% off of character matchups and potential. It's a mix of those, not to mention opinions by SBR members.

If your'e going to continue to piss and moan about how unfair your main's placement is, do us all a favor. Shut up and start winning tournaments with him. Useless whining is useless, and it makes you look like a bunch of 12 year olds.

Why? It didn't work for falcon lol.

 

[risemix]

Saying he should be higher when his placement results and common sense clearly don't reflect that is ludicrous.

Placement results being a bunch of tards that got together and made lists and compared them slumber-party style, right?

 

[Tianxiazhai]

Thanks Barge.
Good list overall i think. Lucas and Ness kind of confuses me, but im sure you guys have your reasons.

 

[risemix]

Why? It didn't work for falcon lol.

hahahahahaha

 

[Greenpoe]

Shouldn't people be happy if the tier list underrated their characters? That way other people don't realize how amazing their characters are, and thus fewer opponents will be prepared for the matchup, and people are more likely to underestimate your character, + bonus bragging rights.

 

[Red Arremer]

Poor babies.

I'm not impressed.

I'm not impressed by your discussion style. All you do is pushing something down.

I'm pretty convinced that nothing I can say here is going to change anything, but what is problematic to me:

All comments and critics, if being worded properly, are taken into account. That's what Andy (that guy with the Purple nick, y'know) said himself. And by worded properly, it's not "lul ur all so stupehd" or "this tier list sucks balls, and I know far better than all of you!".

1. This voting process was pretty outrageous. The fact that there was even a vote to begin with is stupid, but putting them on a list and averaging their scores? The ****ing Gideon Bible is more scientific than this.

I partly agree. The voting process is maybe appropiate for the first third of the tier list. If it gets lower, having people who have no idea about the according characters voting for their tier placement is not really a good solution. In fact, it's a bad one. But democracy doesn't work differently. That was all democratically correct. See, that's why I support soft fascism.

2. Multiple characters who frequently have strong showings at tournaments are placing low because less people play those characters so there's less opportunity for them to place high. Do you know how many tier whores play Snake and R.O.B. (oh, I'm sorry, used to play R.O.B., he's only B Tier now lolololzzzz).

But tournament placings are part of the metagame.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Olimar is a beast. He's way too underrated. His grab range forces me to fetch a box of kleenex and clean up. He can also camp extremely well, and has great smashes as mentioned above. Few bad matchups as well. moarolimarplzktxh

 

[Kinzer]

I'm laughing at Sonic mains thinking he was going to make a huge jump.

No Sonic main who knows their character ever said this, why to speak for other people.

Hey, it's a jump nonetheless.

This, defenitely this.

Sonic's placement has been great from the start, better than all of lowtier, but he remains near the bottom. He's moved up two spots, but he's clearly better than that. I'm honestly not seeing what's keeping him so low

The SBR, and anybody else who is too ignorant to learn the matchup to learn the right reasons as to why Sonic sucks.

And there are like three billion sonic mains so they have good results.

Having 2.99~(repeating) million noobs playing Sonic will not skew tourney results, what do we have to do to get you people to understand this?

You can't deny that Sonic's Matchup's are pretty lack luster. He doesn't seem to have any direct advantages on anyone, according to your Matchup Thread.

It sucks when our character revolves more around mindgames which can't be applied on paper... Sonic looks horrible on paper, and is only slightly better in practice.

Fox went down a lot, can someone explain this please? His matchups are not that horrendous, or maybe I'm ignorant.

He gets hard countered by 4 characters if I recall, not to mention not too many people are reppin' the fox.

metaknight is too low imo

Agreed.

Baw I'm a Melee F@G!

Bye bye. Seeya.

This needs no fixing.

This tier list is seriously good. A job very well done.

...Meh, I has mixed opinions on it, but I guess I can't complain with the hard work they put in this (though a lot of things are still questionable... like Samus above Sonic... seriously?

Anyone reading this thread want popcorn? I've also got a few nice comfy spots on my couch.

No thanks.

Fixed for my own humor.

Why do you still play this terribad game, worse yet, why do you still play with a terribad character?

By the time I post this, there will be 5 other people to quote...

 

[RDK]

Why? It didn't work for falcon lol.

Because Falcon mainers were doing it wrong. The rise in Falcon mains and their tournament results still didn't reflect a change in tier listing.

Placement results being a bunch of tards that got together and made lists and compared them slumber-party style, right?

You're an idiot. Stop posting.

Edit: Kinzer, mindgames is not quantifiable for characters. Saying "Sonic has good mindgames" is ******** and you know it.

 

[Vorguen]

Captain Fail stayed right where he is, rofl.

He needs to do more sit-ups.

 

[ROOOOY!]

So what if Sonic places well in some tournaments? Those tournaments are probably garbage.

I agree. Boy, them Hylian and Sethlon guys Espy placed over last week must be ****ing awful.

*Uses the power of assumption too*

 

[RDK]

I agree. Boy, them Hylian and Sethlon guys Espy placed over last week must be ****ing awful.

*Uses the power of assumption too*

One tournament? Quite an enormous data base the Sonic mains have going for them.

 

[Umby]

Why do you still play this terribad game, worse yet, why do you still play with a terribad character?

To be honest, I only really play it at tournaments/gaming get-togethers anymore. To busy playing games I don't get bored with in 15 minutes.

I play with Sonic because he's comfortable for me to play with. Hopefully you find nothing wrong with that, so that you don't randomly pinpoint me and bash my posts.

In other news, the pizza just arrived. Who wants in?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You tell me there was heated discussion and that makes this list worth anyones time?
What is the word Im looking for....ah yes...
WHAT?
Let me look at Ankoku's list.
What the hell?

Rankings and match ups/potential make a tier list right?
Some of these results are inconsistent from what appears, and it looks like people just voted halfway through their *** and got some accuracy?
Am I saying I could do better? How about I don't say that and get grief from others about how I hold myself on a golden pedestal.
Sonic's been doing well, either theres a conspiracy in the tourney scene that is making Sonic win matches, or maybe Sonic is better than being granted. Obviously he moved up because he showed he's being better.
Was the move enough?
Yoshi moved...Down?
WHAT!?
Im Confuzzled, I am.
There are some certain 0-O...no wtf moments.
The general idea seems fine to me, but wtf is with some of the placements.
If you dont want to discuss every character thats fine.
But an indepth at controversal placements would be nice since well...there the controversal matchups.
Ignore me if you wish.
Im a ******.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I dare an SBRB member to give a reasonable and well thought out explanation as to why tourney results had such large influences for some characters (like falco) while Sonics tourneys counted for nothing.

Dont hurt yourselves trying to do the numbers

BTW im not that fussed over sonics placings, i wouldnt put him much higher anyway. Its just laughable that you can claim tourney results had an impact on this list and that low tier mains should prove why their character isnt bad through tournaments.

The answer is simple. Good falco's consistently place high in tournaments that matter. I'm talking about regional tournaments that involve players from multiple regions, where top level players from several regions actually show up. Falco has shown to do well in these, so we look at his tournament results, and go, whoa, nicely done Falco. When Sonic places, he's beating someone's Pokemon trainer, or a player who doesn't place very well in real serious tournaments. I took a look at 95% of Sonic's placements and I didn't recognize many real worthwhile notable players besides Inui one time in his life losing to a Sonic. That's how I interpreted the results and thats how a few other SBR members did as well. Many thought Sonic was better than this, but fortunately it's based on a vote and majority rules.

When I voted on the tier list, I almost ignored low level matches, results and matchups. I took the game at its highest possible level of play, which I've experienced a lot of travelling to three different regions. From my persepctive Sonic does not perform well at these higher level tournaments as much as he does overall when smaller tournaments are factored, and I personally ignored smaller tournaments when deciding upon tier lists because when it comes to judging the metagame at it's best, they are near worthless.

The second thing, and less important thing, I took a look at was the characters on papers and whether they meet the conditions I consider valuable for tournament play. Examples of such elements are ability to adapt and options. I consider the best characteres in the game to have the best ability to adapt and the best options of play in any given situation. Looking at it from a pencil and paper persepctive Falco's moveset gives him far far superior ability to adapt and have options as compared to Sonic. This type of analysis, of course, is only second to tournament results when deciding who are the best characters. Some characters get a bigger boost than others for being good on paper, and that's is NECESSARY because tournament results ARE indeed influenced by player skill at the tournament, popularity of character, what tournaments are reported, and many other factors that make it necessary to interpret tournament results and weed out wins and losses that do not matter as much.

I main AND win with Peach. I understand much more than the vast majority of people, when a character is good because people don't understand how to fight you, and when your character is actually good. There's alot of details and very subtle things I see that make a huge distinction between these two things. I can beat most MK's I play but it's solely because they MK playerse do not understand my character and do not understand the tools they have and how much easier it would be eto defeat me should they use the right tools they have. I do not actually have the tools to beat them if they understand this. And this is how I view Sonic in nearly every single matchup he has.

Hope that satisfies you.

 

[Ref]

Meta Knight is low tier or at least going to drop to low tier...

You'll see, You'll all see.

 

[Chis]

You're an idiot. Stop posting.

Please take your own advice for the sake of the smash community.

 

[Kinzer]

That's why I said it's not counted for on-paper, because it isn't a 100% reliable source to count on, that's player dependent.

 

[Browny]

me plz. this thread should make todays day @ work go much faster lol.

also, people not learning from thier mistakes

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

Kirby bumped up a notch! BAM!

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

So what if Sonic places well in some tournaments? Those tournaments are probably garbage.

Yeah, try checking out the tournaments he was in before saying those tournaments where "garbage" and shouldn't even count.

No doubt. This show's just started. We've got Coke, popcorn, and cookies.

Chips and Dip anyone?

 

[TP]

I feel sorry for the Sonic mains. They always have to defend themselves, even though they have fully explained their points time and time again. I'm glad Sonic is my worst character.

Also, LOOOOOOL. This thread would have a one-star rating if not for me. I'm one of the three votes. I gave it a 5, while two others gave it a 1. LOOOL.

 

[Tenki]

Jigglypuff in G!?! Below PT,Mario,and Sonic...

Wow. I better go win some tourneys

THAT'S THE SPIRIT!

Honestly, why not say something like this instead of UHHHH SONIC IS ACSHULY HI TIRE!!111

lol, honestly, I don't think they (tourney results/wins) make THAT much of an effect. I remember a while ago reading on AiB from some recognizable name that I don't remember anymore that tourney results counted for about 10% of the tier ranking, while the rest was matchups/movesets.

I'm not sure if it's similar now, but I wouldn't doubt it.

****, ****, and more ****.

First of all, Sonic is currently in B RANK. There is NO WAY he can be the seventh worst.
Second, everyone who knows the first thing about high level play knows that Ness is by farr better than Lucas. Also, HOW THE **** IS SAMUS ABOVE YOSHI?!?!?!?!?!?

[insertmorepainfulreadings]

Did you know that some of the Sonic mains who contributed to Sonic's placement in December did so...

in their first offline tournaments?

You'd think that Sonic were a good character since they were able to pull that off.

'OMG, like Captain Falcon got a win because Ally won against Anther's sonic in one match in the grand finals, so he should be over Jigglypuff and Ganondorf'

Don't make me laugh.

lol, thanks for bringing that up.
Also, quote to bump the idea

-------------------------

And there are like three billion sonic mains so they have good results.

Don't you mean Metaknight?

O.o

How many ****ing times do I have to say this....

Sonic does not report MORE results. HE DOES NOT HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE PLACINGS THAN ANYONE ELSE IN HIS BRACKET!

10 Ice Climbers (7 top8, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 70.6 - 16 (13 placings)
10 ROB (13 top8, 7 top4, 1 win) - 70.6 - 11 (21 placings)
10 Sonic (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 top2, 2 wins) - 58.8 - 18 (11 placings)
10 Olimar (9 top8, 6 top4, 4 top2) - 54.1 - 9 (19 placings)

14 Peach (3 top8, 1 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins) - 42.5 - 13 (7 placings)
14 Lucario (5 top8, 1 top4, 3 top2, 1 win) - 40.3 - 8 (10 placings)

16 Pikachu (5 top8, 2 top4, 3 top2, 1 win) - 36.5 - 15 (11 placings)
16 Mr. Game & Watch (10 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins) - 35.9 - 6 (16 placings)
16 Zelda/Sheik (5 top8, 3 top4, 1 top2, 1 win) - 34.8 - 20 (10 placings)

He has the LEAST placings of characters tied for 10th. This means he is placing HIGHER or at LARGER tournaments comparatively. Saying that there are a billion Sonics is biased and blantantly ignorant of statistics.

But here's the thing, one of his tourneys was similar to the giant Falco Tourney bump. I believe 3 Sonic mains were at the tourney (that's ALOT by our standards, when otherwise, you'd only have one, or maybe two every once every few months, and that's regional).

The millions of Sonic's thing is bull****. One mod said it, and you're all parrotting it like ****ing budgies. Grow a spine, and see that I would say only a dozen Sonic mains (on these boards AND outside) have ever placed in a tournament, and I'd say just under half have only placed once.

+quotebump and format, because this is amazing.

You can't deny that Sonic's Matchup's are pretty lack luster. He doesn't seem to have any direct advantages on anyone, according to your Matchup Thread

I think the more updated one is a few posts down from the first post, since Greenstreet, the manager of the thread, has gone away from a computer and will be gone for a few months. Besides, unlike most character boards, we don't automatically assign advantages to characters that have a reputation for sucking. I personally argued for 'neutral' on matchups where some Sonic mains argued for an advantage.

part 2 later <3

 

[Ishiey]

In other news, the pizza just arrived. Who wants in?

I'll take half of the pepperoni, thanks.

EDIT: Chips and Dip sounds good too, bring 'em over.

 

[plagueofpyro]

Hmm...I would've thought Sonic and CF's tourney placings would have at least bumped them up a few spots...guess I was wrong

 

[RDK]

That's why i said it's not counted for on-paper, because it isn't a 100% reliable source to count on, that's player dependent.

If it's player dependent then it's not the character. He has just as good "mindgames" as anyone else, seeing as how it's 100% who's playing him rather than who's being played.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

So what if Sonic places well in some tournaments? Those tournaments are probably garbage. If all we had to go on was tournament results, than Sonic could very well be S-tier if every tournament was garbage and had Sonics placing high in each one.

But that's just it. That's NOT what's going on. If Sonic had 50 placements compared to the other characters in his group I'd agree but he has less than most of them and less than other characters tied for the 10th spot. Meaning that the tournaments he has been placing in are large enough to warrant his points.

 

[PKNintendo]

Oh well, besides my obvious complaint, my opinion on the tier list.

Looks good, but MK and Snake should be together in S. Yes I know MK is good, by a tier solely for both of them?

 

[Zolga Owns]

In other news, the pizza just arrived. Who wants in?

I brought Nachos and Cheese

*Shoves self between two people*

As well as an LCD Projector to display the entertainment to all :D

 

[ROOOOY!]

One tournament? Quite an enormous data base the Sonic mains have going for them.

I used one example to humour you. I could link you to tournaments that MalcomM regularly places in which are hosted by Bum if you want, or a whole host of examples.

What you seem to not get, and many others, is that Sonic is doing miles better then the characters relatively around him. No Sonic main wants Sonic mid tier, I don't personally think he deserves it and I'm sure others don't too.

I would say that the majority of low tiers aren't getting as many points from big events like you're saying that Sonic isn't. When was the last time a Lucas/Ness/Mario/whatever placed top 8 or top 4 in a fairly large (like, 35+ man) tourney? I'd hazard a guess as a very long time, yet these are more vibrant in the current metagame then Sonic?

If you really think that, you're completely dillusional.

 

[Vorguen]

Im Confuzzled, I am.
There are some certain 0-O...no wtf moments.
The general idea seems fine to me, but wtf is with some of the placements.
If you dont want to discuss every character thats fine.
But an indepth at controversal placements would be nice since well...there the controversal matchups.
Ignore me if you wish.
Im a ******.

I don't want to ignore you I just really did not understand what you said.

 

[PKNintendo]

Oh well, besides my obvious complaint, my opinion on the tier list.

Looks good, but MK and Snake should be together in S. Yes I know MK is good, by a tier solely for both of them?

And Edreeses post's are win.

 

[Kinzer]

me plz. this thread should make todays day @ work go much faster lol.

also, people not learning from thier misteaks

See if you can find my fix.

Hmm...I would've thought Sonic and CF's tourney placings would have at least bumped them up a few spots...guess I was wrong

Awesome first post, but C.Falcon's tounrey results are so skewed, it's not even funny when you look into it.

If it's player dependent then it's not the character. He has just as good "mindgames" as anyone else, seeing as how it's 100% who's playing him rather than who's being played.

...I have no idea how to interpret your post, so for the sake of laziness, you win.

 

[Psychoace]

Because Falcon mainers were doing it wrong. The rise in Falcon mains and their tournament results still didn't reflect a change in tier listing.

...What? They moved up to c rank from the bottom in anouku's list. I didn't really see an increase of falcon mains, I saw more of a decrease if anything. This is kinda why I think the list didn't really look at any of the tournament results.

 

[Umby]

I brought Nachos and Cheese

*Shoves self between two people*

As well as an LCD Projector to display the entertainment to all :D

YOU must sit either next to me or in my lap.

 

[Browny]

. When Sonic places, he's beating someone's Pokemon trainer, or a player who doesn't place very well in real serious tournaments.

Yay assumptions lol! Step 1 of debating (as per my gb2school comment) NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING.

Care to explain then, how sonic deserves to be below at least 10 characters above him? I dont recall (rankings thread agrees) any of those characters winning any big tournaments either. The difference is while sonic and the other low tiers place well in 'bad' tournaments, sonic continues to place in ones with 30+ entrants, $10 entry see etc while every other low tier character's useage drops off.

But you could always assume my argument doesnt exist. Much the same as my rankings/placement argument lmao. the numbers are a lie!

 

[Vorguen]

How are Captain Bacon's tourney results skewed?

 

[Ishiey]

YOU must sit either next to me or in my lap.

Lol no need for forced lapdances, I have places to go and people to see so make yourselves comfortable. Thanks for the food though, maybe I'll see you guys tomorrow. *Leaves to be productive*

 

[Zolga Owns]

YOU must sit either next to me or in my lap.

I'll choose lap, it will be warmer.

Why do people get in an uproar over the list?
This is something I never understood.
From what i gathered its based on tournament data right? The angry ranters should be mad at the people who placed low with said character rather than the people who just interpreted the data. Don't shoot the messenger people.
If you are so mad that your main got moved down why don't you do something about it by placing higher in tournaments. And to all the people insulting their intelligence for making the list "wrong", why don't you go over countless amounts of data and come up with something flawless.