The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[Speedsk8er]

I actuallly wish for the contrary. If Nintendo had actually pulled it off right, Zelda/Sheik would have been one of the more unique characters, like ICs and Ness.

Also, DUH, no one is just going to let you transform just like no one is going to let the Iceys grab you(especially w/ their subpar grab range) or no one's gonna let Samus fully charge her shot. You have to work for it. Mindgames, tech game, whatever. Earn it.

 

[HideousBeing]

Brawl will most likely support patches.

Wii Memory Specs:
88 MiB main memory (24 MiB "internal" 1T-SRAM integrated into graphics package, 64 MiB "external" GDDR3 SDRAM)

This is easily enough room for few patches. I don't think we should be worrying about the game being glitchy or in need of nerfs.

Actually, I would rather like to see Nintendo make updates for the game instead of just patching it. New characters, Stages, etc. could be added to the game. This would definitely help the value of the game out. Although, it would probably require us to buy a hard drive of some sort I guess. Either way Nintendo would look at this as a good way to make some money.

This also makes it so the whole world has the same game. (PAL version)

I wouldn't mind if Nintendo completely transfered the ssbm software to a Wii disc, and made it editable by patches. They would start by releasing the Wii SSBM version, with a few updates to try to balance the characters more. They would make it compatible on Wi-fi and simply make patches every month or so to appropriately nerf or adjust characters until there is -*gasp* NO TIERS! That would be sick. I would really like it if they did this, because I still hate the idea of letting Melee go, as well as letting some of the characters go.

 

[MetaKnight0]

I honestly don't understand why people are so vehemently against having Zelda get kills.

The concept is totally straightforward. Have two characters paired together, each one has a glaring proactive flaw that the other is good at, and you get instant character depth.

Make Sheik have fast medium priority attacks, good speed, good rushdown, and horrible KO ability. Make Zelda have slow high priority attacks, okay speed, good defense, and great KO ability. What's making Sheik top tier right now is because she has good priority, too fast, good rushdown, too much damage potential (CG, Tilts) and fast KOs.

It's not ******** to have one character have a glaring flaw and fill it in with an innovative solution that requires thought. What people here seem to want are basic, shffl'd aerial user with one basic playstyle and a bunch of gimmicks or lack thereof.

Also this tiptoeing around nerfs is pissing me off. I wonder what tournament reaction would be if Nintendo doesn't nerf any character in SSBM, and we ended up with 26 Storms/Magnetos/Cables/Sentinels. Nerfs are a part of evolving fighting games, get used to them please.

 

[Red Exodus]

You can't have no tiers. It's impossible. I mean actually impossible [unless every character is the EXACT same, no difference, not by a hair]. 1 character is going be by better than another, there's no arguing that.

If they force Shiek players to transform for kills then Zelda should be changed so Zelda players should have to transform for comboes. It's only fair, you can't expect to limit one half and not the other. You may say Zelda already sucks but it doesn't matter. An eye for an eye as they say.

P.S. I don't main Shiek but I don't see what the fuss is, Peach is far more broken than Shiek in my book, at least Shiek as an awful recovery.

 

[Perfect Hero]

You people keep mentioning sirlin play to win article yet you totally ignore his other article about game balance. Variety =/= Balance. The point is, you want a good balance of both. Look at Virtua Fighter and Guilty Gear, both of them are incredibly balance and they all play differently. The level of execution in that game is also extremely high compared to Smash.

What Smash should achieve is the balance of GG or VF.

Example: A HL Dizzy player is able to win a HL tournament using a D class character. You KNOW this game is balanced when a character from D class is winning.

Also, this game should want to strive so that the difference in S to A tier(Top to High) is little to none. In this game, Fox has so many tools as well as disadvantages of course compared to that of a lower tier. The game's goal should be to eliminate that difference.

And PLEASE, most comments in this thread are so ignorant. . .When you want balance in a game, you hire play testers that actually play the game at a HIGH LEVEL. Do you know how many patches/rereleases that Sega/Sammy release for their games. They consistently have play testers play the game to test it out. That is how you achieve balance. Not "I don't want higher tier characters nerfed because I: play him/her, the game will become boring, don't want a kirby level nerf.

In conclusion, playtesters ftw?

 

[Sensai]

Nuro, that's feasible only if you have no other games/things on the Wii.

I'm not sure I agree with the whole Sheik/Zelda thing in every aspect, but it does seem clear that Nintendo 'intended' for them to be used as one, not seperately. Given, 'intent' doesn't have much to do with anything; they didn't intend for the WD to be there, they didn't intend for there to be a huge competitive scene based around glitches, they didn't intend for there to be incredible problems with some characters (Mewtwo) and broken-beyond-all-beliefness in others.

To boil it all down to one (or two) nice sentence(s): I think it would've been a neat idea if it had worked out properly, but what we see is what we got, and it seems like that's what would happen with any set-up like this. It's just not feasible in higher level play to switch between characters.

And I think that Smash should strive for Starcraft-like balance. THAT'S what we need. :-D

 

[Zodiac]

Ok for my nerfs

Fox-Take his speed and power down a bit. I know its fox and he wouldnt be fox without being fast. but there a fine line between good and down right cheating...(LOL)

Falcon-fine.

Marth-Peanuts for a sword this time around lol.

Sheik-The only need to nerf sheik arisees when your using Link against her. and a forward air.

Peach-Down smash's demise. Oh and nerf the forward throw!

Buff

Link-He's nintendos second best franchise and they make him that slow, gimme a break. give him more speed and LOT less lag.

Bowser-Give him more speed and not such laggy moves.

Sheik- The froward air needs waaaaaay more power.....LOL

Ganondorf-Should not have been a clone, give him a freakin sword and make him faster, and taller.

those were all just off the top of my head, most of them jokes.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Can I disagree with the Link comment? He's one of the most balanced characters in the game. He doesn't really need anything.

Ganondorf is also balanced although the fact that he is a CF clone was such a friggin` cop-out.

 

[killbeast301]

Link's boomerang needs less lag, and maybe the f-tilt, but that's it. We allready see how much less charge time there is with his arrow.

Bowser doesn't need to be faster, he needs to be stronger, and resistant to attacks. He needs to be a tank.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth-Peanuts for a sword this time around lol.

If his sword weren't long Marth would suck. At least read the other posts. I suppose you could tone down some of the Damage of his aerials, but keep the knock back the same. Marth is a great character because he has a VERY DELICATE balance of speed, range, and power. Changing any one of these would severly cripple his game play.

He loses range. He loses all of his approaches because he's not that fast to cover himself.

He loses power. He loses KO ability because he's not strong enough to knock them off the stage for edgeguarding.

He loses speed. He loses all combo ability because he's already on the limit of follow up ability with his current lag. Right now he's just fast enough to keep a combo going. He still has problems getting them started.

If you truly want to make the game balanced then just see what they did with Marth and make other characters move towards that. A balance between speed, priority, and power. Marth leans heavily on the range side with just enough power to get by and only decent speed. Make different combinations of these elements for the characters that need buffing.


Have you ever considered raising a characters speed AND range so that their more equiped to fight Marth. How do you think Marth dittos are played once both players learn proper DI. You stay just out of his range and then quickly move to the very end of yours and hit him. It's easiy for fast characters because they easilly get within their striking range. It's easy for long range characters because they also can easily get within striking distance. So increasing speed and range would be twice as effective as increasing either alone.

If you pump

 

[im2emo4myshrt]

no one's gonna let Samus fully charge her shot.

Have u played samus, any time you die or get sent flying they charge it.

 

[Sushiman]

I don't think anybody should be nerfed. Some characters should be buffed, though. Give Kirby some more firepower and give Mewtwo some more weights.

 

[Bowserlick]

If his sword weren't long Marth would suck. At least read the other posts. I suppose you could tone down some of the Damage of his aerials, but keep the knock back the same. Marth is a great character because he has a VERY DELICATE balance of speed, range, and power. Changing any one of these would severly cripple his game play.

He loses range. He loses all of his approaches because he's not that fast to cover himself.

He loses power. He loses KO ability because he's not strong enough to knock them off the stage for edgeguarding.

He loses speed. He loses all combo ability because he's already on the limit of follow up ability with his current lag. Right now he's just fast enough to keep a combo going. He still has problems getting them started.

If you truly want to make the game balanced then just see what they did with Marth and make other characters move towards that. A balance between speed, priority, and power. Marth leans heavily on the range side with just enough power to get by and only decent speed. Make different combinations of these elements for the characters that need buffing.


Have you ever considered raising a characters speed AND range so that their more equiped to fight Marth. How do you think Marth dittos are played once both players learn proper DI. You stay just out of his range and then quickly move to the very end of yours and hit him. It's easiy for fast characters because they easilly get within their striking range. It's easy for long range characters because they also can easily get within striking distance. So increasing speed and range would be twice as effective as increasing either alone.

If you pump

Marth can be fixed without being completely nerfed. You are being a little overdramatic about how he needs all his high stats.

Remember not just Marth will be changed for the cause of balance, everyone will. So he would be able to keep up with Fox and the other 5 or 6 high tier characters because (theorectically) they will all receive different stats.

The key to fixing Marth though is not simply reducing his range, power, and speed. If you change all of those you will seriously gimp the character, and have a useless character on the roster. But the developers have to find Marth's specialixation and reduce his attributes that bleed into other areas that might make him unfair.

For example, Marth DOES have too much strength in his forward Smash. Killing characters at 30% is a bit ridiculous especially with a character that is not suppose to be that strong. And Marth should NOT have a stronger forward Smash then Bowser.

So how do we fix Marth. Not too much has to be done. His grab range has to be shortened and his forward Smash has to be weaker (but he should keep the tipper bonus). He should keep his aerial game which nicely demonstrates his elegant swordplay. Remember wavedashing may not come back. If this is the case then only those two changes can help balance the game.

 

[Goldkirby]

Also this tiptoeing around nerfs is pissing me off. I wonder what tournament reaction would be if Nintendo doesn't nerf any character in SSBM, and we ended up with 26 Storms/Magnetos/Cables/Sentinels. Nerfs are a part of evolving fighting games, get used to them please.

I think I would actually enjoy that

 

[The Slayer]

Have u played samus, any time you die or get sent flying they charge it.

Apparently, I don't think he fully played all the characters to the best of his ability.

 

[ToyzSoldier]

Woops wrong thread

 

[Red Exodus]

I think Bowser was just made as a joke anyway. He's so slow and weak that it's embarassing. Bowser shouldn't be a combo character, a juggle character maybe but not a combo character.

He should have FAR more knockback on some of his attacks and he shouldn't flinch so easily, so when someone goes to jab him, he can charge and fsmash through it. His shield be be much much harder to dent. Instead of getting it broken by moves like Marth's shieldbreaker/Roy's Flare blade [although that should knock him pretty far, even at 0%] he should block more of the blow.

All of his moves should have higher priority than smaller, weaker characters too. I think he should be more of a tank, than a handicap tank without it's sturdy armor.

 

[Inevitable]

I think adding more weight to Bowser would just make him more fun to juggle, but it's better to survive than die at lower percents.

My opinion on how Bowser's special moves should be improved:

The Koopa Breath(or whatever it's called..) should have a little more range and should push the opponet back with a little more knockback than usual.

The Koopa Claw should be slightly faster, or it's good the way it is.

Down B should pop the opponet into the air if you land close to them with the effect of DK's down B, sort of like Yoshi's star effect.

Bowser's Up B is pretty good in my opinion, it should stay the way it is, maybe you could be able to reach more vertical distance slighty, but other wise it's fine in my opinion.



These are just my opinions, so don't just go into a flame war against me, but you can disagree.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Have u played samus, any time you die or get sent flying they charge it.

1. I wasn't referring to that exactly. I was referring to you charging in the middle of a match. Either, sending them flying, you earned it, right? Unless they're sandbagging.

 

[Red Exodus]

Weight doesn't mean how fast you fall, look at Fox and Falco. I'm talking about tank weight. Weight as in less knockback the more your character weighs. If bowser was a fast faller he'd be bottom tier for sure.

 

[Sensai]

The point about Bowser's weight still stands, though. Fox Up-Throw to Up Air would be absurd...just doing it over and over and over and over...

But, like he said, it's better then just getting knocked out easily.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Because everyone is donk I will post my personal preferences for low tier buffs 'n ****.

Mewtwo:
-Get rid of tail hitbox on his character
-Heavier (Mario heavy would be probably most balanced)
-More knockback on Down Tilt
-Jab activates quicker, recovers quicker, does 8%, something like Ganon's jab but not as fast or strong
-Forward Tilt swings him around, give him more range, longer total execution time
-Get rid of Up Tilt sweetspot and just make it 8% everytime
-Change his Confusion entirely, my preference would be a move like GGXX Ky's air dust. Little orb of dark floating where he sets it, stays for half a second, lag about a quarter of a second after activation
-Disable range increased

Bowser:
-Heavier (PAL heavy is nice)
-Increase shield-stun on jabs, vacuums opponent in
-Edge Attack when <100% does not hit when coming back.
-Up Tilt recovery lessened
-Down Tilt second attack is second input
-Up-B second hit activates sooner
-Grab range increased, make it same speed as everyone else's grabs
-Forward, Back, Up Throw get pumped up damage. Down Throw hitbox increase (solves Jigglypuff/G&W problem)
-Fire breath shoots a fireball across ground kind of like Mario Bros.
-Down B is lost in the forest of crap change it to something else, like a Counter.

Pichu:
-Seriously I hate Pichu he is probably THE joke character.

Others later.

 

[HideousBeing]

How about nerfing Peach's nair? It's so godlike, it should be weakened a bit. They could make it more like Zelda's. Her throws are also so strong, some directions should be nerfed.

 

[Sensai]

I don't really see too much with Peach that's wrong, except her Dsmash. I mean, the Nair is good for spamming outta combos, which doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Demongod86]

Falcon if anything needs a buff with his recovery so you're not instagibbed the moment you're off the edge. Falcon kick and falcon punch are downright horrible. Other than the Tapion Punch combo (stomp space animals at 75%, falcon punch), there's really no place to use FP other than a jig's missed rest or a broken shield. I have no idea why the raptor leaves you without your up B either. Luigi and Pika can do their forward Bs without losing anything, as can many other characters.

Samus needs to have the bombjump removed. There's no way in hell nintendo intended that to bethere.

Also, there should be a separate button for short-hopping, and perhaps making wavedash an easily-executed command. I think smash needs to be played based on strategy, not about frame-timing or finger-precision.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Falcon if anything needs a buff with his recovery so you're not instagibbed the moment you're off the edge. Falcon kick and falcon punch are downright horrible. Other than the Tapion Punch combo (stomp space animals at 75%, falcon punch), there's really no place to use FP other than a jig's missed rest or a broken shield. I have no idea why the raptor leaves you without your up B either. Luigi and Pika can do their forward Bs without losing anything, as can many other characters.

Samus needs to have the bombjump removed. There's no way in hell nintendo intended that to bethere.

Also, there should be a separate button for short-hopping, and perhaps making wavedash an easily-executed command. I think smash needs to be played based on strategy, not about frame-timing or finger-precision.

hahaha what Falcon doesn't need buffs. His knee is insane, his speed is insane, his dashdance is insane, the last thing we need to is buff his recovery with Raptor Boost. Soft nerf his knee and make him enter run quicker, and make his Falcon Kick better. With SSB there's going to be gimmick moves that just don't work but are fun to use.

Bombjump unintended? How Samus randomly rolls up into a ball, bounces up, and moves in a direction relative to the bomb explosion? Like how she can do bombjumps in Metroid games? Removing something iconic to the character? Big no.

Smash is already about strategy, but how the hell would a button for short-hops be better? What about a button that wavedashes or waveshines for you? Gets rid of the technical aspects, hey now it's only about strategy. Or maybe everyone else can learn how to do technical maneuvers and not give a crap about the lazy people who just want button macros = /

 

[shil01]

I think Marth in the PAL version is pretty reasonable. I'll admit he is stronger than others, but Fox out classes Marth on Speed and Power.

His Up Smash, Shine, Forward Smash and Grabs are quite powerful. What does me most though is Up Smash, it can kill Marth if he was 82% (Takes him upto 100%). If it's over 90% He will kill Marth with one hit, which is a bit toooooo strong, especially since hitting your person up has no distance factor. Fox could FSmash Marth from the left of the stage to the right and Marth would most likely survive. But an UpSmash from anymore= Death.

Just nerf his Up Smash.

I'm guessing you use Marth, and you aren't very good at smash.


Sure, Fox's up smash has a little umph, although not near as Much as almost every single hit Marth has. Whats the difference? Marths hits have an insane amount of range, with about equal power. Well, actually, Foxs low stamina vs. Marth's reasonably high stamina makes Fox's hits technically weaker.
So, if you can't beat a Fox then that means he is much more skilled than you. Fox is only in the top teir of professional play, and you sound casual (Far be it from me to say). For casual play, Fox is pretty much boned against a Marth.

Also, as far as casual play goes, I think Samus has a very big upperhand against most characters.

hahaha what Falcon doesn't need buffs. His knee is insane, his speed is insane, his dashdance is insane, the last thing we need to is buff his recovery with Raptor Boost. Soft nerf his knee and make him enter run quicker, and make his Falcon Kick better. With SSB there's going to be gimmick moves that just don't work but are fun to use.

Bombjump unintended? How Samus randomly rolls up into a ball, bounces up, and moves in a direction relative to the bomb explosion? Like how she can do bombjumps in Metroid games? Removing something iconic to the character? Big no.

Smash is already about strategy, but how the hell would a button for short-hops be better? What about a button that wavedashes or waveshines for you? Gets rid of the technical aspects, hey now it's only about strategy. Or maybe everyone else can learn how to do technical maneuvers and not give a crap about the lazy people who just want button macros = /

Warning for users of CapItAn: NO AIRBREAKS
LOL, yeah, capitans insane aireal smashes are exactly why I chose him when I started learning to play seriously. That and he is easier to shufflc with than Fox...

 

[Sensai]

Demongod86, you like Falcon a lot, huh? Try playing Ganon, who has even MORE useless moves.

But honestly, I think that Ganon's pretty well balanced. I also think that Falcon's getting there, or possibly a little on the 'too-good' side. But just barely. He beats the crap outta Ganon, but loses to space-animals....sounds like balance to me.

 

[Rakuen]

I have no idea why the raptor leaves you without your up B either. Luigi and Pika can do their forward Bs without losing anything, as can many other characters.

Luigi's up B has zero horizontal movement, and Pichu/Pikachu's forward B has an inane amount of lag on the end. Some of the other forward B's that give horizontal movement don't seem to have been intended as such (ie: Marth).

 

[Red Exodus]

I think it's nice having options when you want to get back to the stage. Like Samus' bomb jump, Mario's Cape -> Tornado -> Jump -> Cape if necessary -> up B, Marth/Roy's <-> B, Fox/Falco's illusion etc. It's suck if all you could do was jump straight back to the stage, edgeguarding would be the new wobble.

 

[BigRick]

My answer to MetaKnight's comments: I like your propositions, but I'd like to see Mewtwo have a little bit more weight than Mario, and Bowser should have a move that grants him super armor! Potemkin style.

Pichu can remain the way he is, if he's the joke char...

And lol at your button macros comment... These guys should just play MtG or sumtin

To HideousBeing: Peach is not Broken... ease of use =/= Broken

 

[Red Exodus]

Yeah, Peach's dsmash/fthrow/turnips/recovery is SO not broken.

Shiek is less broken than Peach imo. Don't get all offended, I won't care, the point is I have yet to see sometime uber broken from Shiek. Don't show me any vids either, those vids are made by pros so of course they'd look like complete ownage. Watch a Kirby/Mewtwo [Taj makes Mewtwo look like God tier material] combo vid and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Creo]

My answer to MetaKnight's comments: I like your propositions, but I'd like to see Mewtwo have a little bit more weight than Mario, and Bowser should have a move that grants him super armor! Potemkin style.

Pichu can remain the way he is, if he's the joke char...

And lol at your button macros comment... These guys should just play MtG or sumtin

To HideousBeing: Peach is not Broken... ease of use =/= Broken

Finally someone respects Guilty Gear...Hear about GGXXAccentCore for Wii in summer...

 

[GenocideMachine]

Some of the reactions in this thread are pretty funny, like the fact that some people think that absolutely no one should be nerfed, only buffing. The last thing I want to see is half the characters having infinites. Let's be realistic here, imagine the complete and utter stagnation of the Super Smash Brothers series if absolutely no nerfing took place. Fox and Falco would have to be practically unchanged, since one little tweak could totally destroy them. Can't JC a shine? GG. Can't SHL with falco? Oh noes! Ruined! Potentially changed Fox's moveset? Blasphemy! Does anyone seriously expect the devs to make real changes to a high tier character without hurting them in the slightest bit?

Honestly, high tier and up characters don't really bother me, but you've got to agree that some of their attributes don't really make sense...At all. Captain Falcon is speed, power, somewhat heavy, godlike shffling, and has an uber knee. Downsides? ****ty recovery and incredibly situational (just kidding, I meant useless) B moves. Mind you, I hate picking on Captain Falcon because he's one of my favorite characters, but he's pretty **** powerful in comparison to many of the other characters. Not to mention, he has the best taunt in the game. Compare him to his more balanced clone, Gannondorf (whom is still a great character) and you're left wondering why CF gets everything Gannondorf has (except his ****ty tilt) and more.

Some characters just have too many pros with nothing to balance it out. Marth has awesome grab range, a long sword, godsent aerials, good edgeguarding abilities, and an excellent spike. Young Link has milk. As you can see, something is wrong there. Fox gets an incredibly powerful u-smash, some very lengthy recovery, shine, JC shine, waveshine, drillshine, pewpew lasers, and ridiculous speed. Pichu gets seizures.

Now, I don't expect every character to be equal, because that would make the game suck. But when I see 5 characters rule the underlings with a tyrannic fist, I worry. That's not say the lower tiers can't win, yeah yeah, I know, skill>tiers blah blah blah it's been said one thousand times.

And now to my suggestions on how characters should be improved!!!!11:

Bowser: I almost feel bad for Bowser, but I feel bad for myself more because I love playing him. He needs some help, but he has some moves that are pretty **** good. He's got a great fair, one of the best up-b's ever, an interesting over-b (that would be nice if it wasn't so laggy after a miss) and he's heavy. Too bad he's so easily combo'd and many of his moves are sinfully slow. What he needs is to be a lot more heavy, maybe a tiiiiny bit more fast without losing flavour, delete the bowser bomb off the face of this Earth, give him a faster neutral-a so he can stop being ***** in combos as often, and...Other stuff. Like some new moves. I don't expect to ever see him even in Mid-tier, but I'll live.

Mario: I think Mario is fine, but he needs some more KO ability. Give the down-b freeze frames so it doesn't suck so badly, and give his down-a more freeze frames. Actually, give most all down-a moves freeze frames so they aren't so **** lame and weak looking. I'm referring to ones similar to Mario's, jiggly's, etc.

Peach: Peach is a bit too powerful, but at the very least it's somewhat balanced out by the fact that she's a bit slow. Too bad she has omega recovery, an incredibly powerful fgrab, d-smash, etc etc etc. I don't think float-canceling should be removed, because it's too cool. I don't really know how to balance Peach besides just...DELETING HER. Moving on.

Yoshi: I think Yoshi is fine and I'm glad he doesn't have an Up-B recovery move. He could just use some lag reduction on his fair and maybe buff the eggs he throws a bit. I don't play Yoshi very often so I'm not going to pretend I know what the hell I'm talking about. Yellow Yoshi should also be deleted for balance reasons. Oh, and he should be able to jump out of his shield.

Donkey Kong: He's pretty balanced and he ***** space animals, that's got to count for something. Maybe give his up-b a tiny bit more vertical movement. His fair sucks, but I don't expect everything to be balanced.

Ness: Urgh, he needs a lot. For one, I laughed so hard when someone said he should keep his yoyo jump jacket or whatever the hell it's called. Yeaaaah, that's not a glitch...

I'm too lazy to finish the rest, but this is a general idea.

 

[MetaKnight0]

I've thought about Bowser having super armour and it's tough to implement, to say the least. Static super armour is broken, super armour on a few key moves may be okay (F-Smash comes to mind)

Red Exodus: Look at match-up chart phanna compiled and check Sheik's matchups below Doc. If not, remember that Sheik's chain-grab is 70% off a grab into edge-guard. How about guaranteed grabs with air needles? How about totally destroying shield-grabs?

Peach's turnips aren't broke, if it weren't for random pickups they would be good as is. Recovery is not broke (she's really not that heavy), and Sheik/Fox/Marth/Falcon/Ice Climbers all have way better grab games than Peach. Down Smash and Float Cancels are the two real broken things, and people can beat Down Smashes.

 

[ToyzSoldier]

*sigh* barely anybody has had suggestions for Y. Link and the rest of those obscurely played characters. I guess that's the problem with being stuck in the middle, especially the middle of low tier, and barely ever appearing on a person's character roster. Oh well, more suggesting for me, at least for Young Link. I don't play the rest of those obscure characters. Anyway, bringing too much more power to Young Link and a longer hookshot would upset the balance between Y. link and link. Link is, afterall, the power and range to Y. link's speed and projectiles. So top-tiering Y. Link would require advancements in movement and projectiles.

How to Make Young Link not Suck

Attacks
Just a few specific improvements, that would annoy the hell out of me if they were kept the same.

-Up-b is so pitiful compared to Link's Up-b. So his up-b needs to be less DI-able and open better combo oportunties afterward. His up-b needs to send opponents a straight 90 degree angle upwards, more knockback, and thus greater stun time for less DI ability. Think of it as a powered down version of Bowser's d-smash.
-Dash attack needs a sweetspot at the tip like his f-tilt does.
-Dair flame spike doesn't work. Instead make the knockback send the opponent up. More powerful than regular dair.
-First part of f-smash has no set knock back and sends the opponent up-ish.

Movement
The faster opponents just catch up to Y. Link too, well fast, and really hinder his projectile spam, and forces him to fight sword-to-hand, something he doesn't excel at. These should help him to run away better, and increase his follow-up as well.

-Must run faster. Roys running speed sounds fine.
-Fastfall faster. Not falls faster. Fastfall faster. Around Mario's fast fall sounds reasonable.
-Because of faster running, he should be able to jump farther out.
-Move through air faster.

Projectiles
I can't think of much for projectiles since I can't find many ways on how his projectiles can be improved, but these might be useful.

-Non-point blank boomerang has more stun and priority, so its not canceled by jabs.
-Bombs can be tossed away by pressing Z in a stationary position, like how items can be tossed away the same way.
-Bombs aren't stopped by lasers

Miscellaneous
Stuff that has to happen.

-His shield actually protects him from lasers especially falcos.
-With the new crawl button for brawl, that button, when held, should be able to initiate him to use his shield (the one that blocks projectiles) in the air. More protection from Falco's lasers! He stops using his shield when you let go of the crawl button.
-Y. Link becomes heavier at least a little bit. Come on, he has a lot of equipment just like Link, and he's only lightweight?

 

[rm88]

I don't really know how to balance Peach besides just...DELETING HER

Let me think about itNO ^_^

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Marth could be fixed easily by just adding a small amount of startup delay on his tipper.

 

[Fawriel]

Yay, Toyz Soldier!! Finally someone thinks of the little guy! Makes me wonder why I didn't.
I agree with pretty much everything. What I have to add is that his projectiles need
-far less lag ( if Marth is standing at the whole other end of FD and you're throwing a boomerang his dash attack will still hit you before the thing was even thrown )
-bigger hitboxes and higher priority.
Young Link is supposed to rely on bombing his enemies with up to three projectiles at the same time, but as is, he rarely gets a chance to.
My hope is that they turn him into Wind Waker Link and subsequently give him the Master Sword as well. Plus, the Wind Waker Link actually is, in his game, pretty swift for a Link. See him jump!
Oh yeah, Young Link needs a better ( faster ) roll. I mean, come on, in his games he uses rolls in order to move FASTER than running.

 

[Creo]

Marth simply doesn't need to be fixed... He's great how he is...