The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[Rakuen]

I don't think any character is actually very buffed nor nerved. For example, Ganondorf is way 2 slow but therefore very strong. Fox isn't that strong but therefore very fast. So are all the characters balanced.

And then there's Ness, who got hit with the nerf bat quite a few times too many.

 

[Zarasai]

how do you change the title on a thread? ive never figured that out

 

[Celsco]

And then there's Ness, who got hit with the nerf bat quite a few times too many.

True, but then again a very powerfull b-charge that's way 2 slow lol

 

[maelstrom218]

I don't think any character is actually very buffed nor nerved. For example, Ganondorf is way 2 slow but therefore very strong. Fox isn't that strong but therefore very fast. So are all the characters balanced.

. . .well, if you're living in Europe or Australia, I'll forgive you for your apparent ignorance. But if you happen to be playing NTSC, then fie on you, for shame. You do realize that both u-air and u-smash can consistently KO at around 90% without much effort (or even less), and that DI doesn't really do much to help the situation? Not to mention b-air, shinespiking, and a bunch of other things he has which are blatantly overpowered.

In terms of balance, the only thing we need to do really is to just use that PAL version, the way that Europe does. I envy the Europeans, sometimes.

 

[Celsco]

. . .well, if you're living in Europe or Australia, I'll forgive you for your apparent ignorance. But if you happen to be playing NTSC, then fie on you, for shame. You do realize that both u-air and u-smash can consistently KO at around 90% without much effort (or even less), and that DI doesn't really do much to help the situation? Not to mention b-air, shinespiking, and a bunch of other things he has which are blatantly overpowered.

In terms of balance, the only thing we need to do really is to just use that PAL version, the way that Europe does. I envy the Europeans, sometimes.

Lol I do live in Europe, in the Netherlands. I didn't know the Europe/Pal version is so much different from the US-version, so forgive me for my mistake.

 

[Mic_128]

Lol I do live in Europe, in the Netherlands. I didn't know the Europe/Pal version is so much different from the US-version, so forgive me for my mistake.

There's suprisingly a large number of diferences. There's a topic arund somewhere that lists the diferences, should check it out if you're interested, quite interesting.

 

[silvertalon215]

Sadly Imbalance will be present in any fighting game you play. There is nothing that can be done about this.

 

[Sudai]

Sadly Imbalance will be present in any fighting game you play. There is nothing that can be done about this.

Sure there is. Give every character the same exact move sets with the same damage and same knock backs, just different costumes.

 

[Celsco]

@ Mic 128

Thnx, that is very interesting indeed but also very anoying.

Because if SSBB will go online it'll be hard 2 win your battle against an American because they have trained their chars very different. Maybe they'll put channels up for only Europe or only US or something like that.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Sure there is. Give every character the same exact move sets with the same damage and same knock backs, just different costumes.

OMG Fox is STILL so broken!!!

 

[Tera253]

buff Pikachu. that is all.
~Tera253~

 

[h1roshi]

no matter what you do there will still be a top tier. you can nerf fox , falco , or sheik, but they just get replaced with somebody else....peace

-hiroshi

 

[BigRick]

Sadly Imbalance will be present in any fighting game you play. There is nothing that can be done about this.

Indeed it is impossible to obtain perfect balance. However, it is possible to reduce the gap between top and bottom tier... many games have already been able to do this.

What I would like to see in Brawl is the best characters being about as good as our current top tier. And the worse characters being as bad as Luigi/Link in our current tier list. This is possible.

 

[Sensai]

IsmashedYOURmom, thanks (for saying you thought I was cool). I appreciate it.

To those who don't want ANY nerfs: you can't just buff everyone, it doesn't work like that. If you just continually buffered everyone...well, everyone would be broken. If everyone's broken, the game's not fun. Nerfs are necessary to fighting games.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

If everyone's broken, the game's not fun.

How so, you talk about broken characters like broken is a bad thing O.o Broken is good.

 

[Inevitable]

Broken is what keeps our spirit alive. Nerfs are just some cheap toys that are sold at some local Toys 'R' Us.

 

[GreenMamba]

If everyone was broken as hell, it'd just become whoever makes the first move...

 

[Inevitable]

I think the Wii would overheat and just explode by the time the match was half way in.

Fox vs. Pichu!

GO!

Fox uses blaster, 100% damage tacks onto Pichu for each hit.

Pichu uses Down B and it has the range of FD so Fox get's KO'd and Pichu recieves 50% recoil damage for the move.

TV explodes.

The end.

 

[Sensai]

Dylan, I'm going to assume you're joking. Same with Inevitable. The sad thing is that people believe that if everyone were just given steroids, then the game would balance itself out (and if either one of you think that...well, then read below).

It just doesn't work like that. As Mamba said, it comes down to whoever gets the first hit. We'll use Fox vs Sheik as an example. If Sheik were buffed so that his Fair had more knockback and Fox was buffed so that his Up Smash was even more powerful, then it'd be whoever landed a blow first. My bet would be Sheik, as the move has less lag/start up time. But you get the idea.

 

[ToyzSoldier]

So slower characters may have an advantage over faster ones? How?
Really, is there ANYTHING that can act as an "elemental" advantage over speed? Mrr.
I'm not exactly for the concept of "slow-strong vs fast-weak", it's so... simple. Smash has so many factors like tricks, combos, rolls...

Advantage? projectiles.... Young Link <3

 

[HideousBeing]

Leave Bowser's firebreath the way it is, but make it so you can change the angle of it while using it. It would be just like Dhalsim's super yoga flame.

Same thing should be done to Link's arrows. Imagine being able to shoot an arrow at different angles. That would be very fun to master.

Exactly what I was thinking. Except maybe instead of having direct aim, you could press A repeatedly while doing the move to raise the angle of attack. The angle would be constantly declining to return to normal, so to lower your aim, stop pressing A. This may be a little difficult to understand, but if anyone has played Mario Party 2, this would be similar to how you raise and lower your hammer in the Space Land Item Game.

Also, it would be cool to be able to place a bomb on the ground with Link by pressing Down B while holding a bomb. The SH bomb drop is difficult and bloody inconvenient.

 

[BigRick]

It just doesn't work like that. As Mamba said, it comes down to whoever gets the first hit. We'll use Fox vs Sheik as an example. If Sheik were buffed so that his Fair had more knockback and Fox was buffed so that his Up Smash was even more powerful, then it'd be whoever landed a blow first. My bet would be Sheik, as the move has less lag/start up time. But you get the idea.

lol pro level Melee is already like this

Example: Ken (Marth) VS Bombsoldier (Falco) at JGT...

It always came down to the one that either got the grab or the shine in first.

 

[Chromeless]

lol pro level Melee is already like this

Example: Ken (Marth) VS Bombsoldier (Falco) at JGT...

It always came down to the one that either got the grab or the shine in first.

And that is exactly why it better if it is changed. The Fox vs Marth matchup honestly produces some of the most boring matches I've ever seen, simply because it is based around exploiting each characters cheapest moves against the other. Dispite that the matchup itself is fairly even, it's just even in an utterly ******** way.

When you have Fox v Falco, Marth vs Falcon ect. you end up with some amazing matches, not strictly because these matchups involve similer fighting styles, but because you have to put alot more effort in to actually hit your opponent, let alone do any significant damage as each move you have can easily be countered in some way.

Personally I would rather have an intresting game that makes it as difficult as possible to exploit things then a game that is highly balanced, but only though overpowering everything.

That being said, I would rather get rid of CGing completaly (except for DK, as that's pretty much the point of his character) and make it much more difficult to preasure/combo/spike with the shine, because it turns matches into slugfests as opposed to lightspeed chess.

 

[BigRick]

And that is exactly why it better if it is changed. The Fox vs Marth matchup honestly produces some of the most boring matches I've ever seen, simply because it is based around exploiting each characters cheapest moves against the other. Dispite that the matchup itself is fairly even, it's just even in an utterly ******** way.

When you have Fox v Falco, Marth vs Falcon ect. you end up with some amazing matches, not strictly because these matchups involve similer fighting styles, but because you have to put alot more effort in to actually hit your opponent, let alone do any significant damage as each move you have can easily be countered in some way.

Personally I would rather have an intresting game that makes it as difficult as possible to exploit things then a game that is highly balanced, but only though overpowering everything.

That being said, I would rather get rid of CGing completaly (except for DK, as that's pretty much the point of his character) and make it much more difficult to preasure/combo/spike with the shine, because it turns matches into slugfests as opposed to lightspeed chess.

I guess that every1 has their own tastes, a rapefest is alot more interesting than a stalemate for me. You want boring? Try watching Peach VS Jiggs or sumtin like that.

Btw, you gave very bad examples... Falco can shine combo Fox like hell, while Fox can CG/nair juggle/shinespike Falco... Marth can edgeguard Falcon very easily, while Falcon can combo Marth llike a volleyball.

 

[Rakuen]

I guess that every1 has their own tastes, a rapefest is alot more interesting than a stalemate for me. You want boring? Try watching Peach VS Jiggs or sumtin like that.

That's the other end of the balance spectrum. The one end that gets the most attention is two characters in which it's more beneficial for one player to go make a ham sandwich than actually play the game (note: something this severe will only happen in the metagame). The other end, the one mostly ignored, is a matchup where two characters are completely perfect counters to each other, and it's also much more plausible from actual gameplay.

 

[Sensai]

No, the other end of the spectrum is a Falco ditto. Seriously. Go watch a pro Falco ditto...it's so effin' boring.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

The Fox vs Marth matchup honestly produces some of the most boring matches I've ever seen, simply because it is based around exploiting each characters cheapest moves against the

I hate that ****ing word. "cheap" Cheap is a fictional construct created in the minds of scrubs as an excuse for losing (not calling you a scrub, just saying why I hate the word cheap)

Dylan, I'm going to assume you're joking. Same with Inevitable. The sad thing is that people believe that if everyone were just given steroids, then the game would balance itself out (and if either one of you think that...well, then read below).

No, I'm not joking. Broken characters are the best, if broken characters truly sucked and made this game boring no one would play SSB64 on Kaillera. Just because a character is broken doesn't automatically ensure a win, put ****ty fox vs KIRBYKING the german pro kirby smasher and he'll 4 stock you. I've seen him rip through medicore fox/falcos that use all the ''advanced'' techs, kirbyking is just a good smasher, and he only uses kirby.

Kirby isnt broken at ALL in melee but he can beat fox's ''broken'' up smash and shine if the player owns the other. If you want to beat people your calibur or higher, what can I say learn a high tier or at least a mid tier.

We'll use Fox vs Sheik as an example. If Sheik were buffed so that his Fair had more knockback and Fox was buffed so that his Up Smash was even more powerful, then it'd be whoever landed a blow first. My bet would be Sheik, as the move has less lag/start up time. But you get the idea.

O.o Weird example man, where did I imply I wanted them to make shiek and fox BETTER? Obviously if fox's upsmash was so broken itd kill you at 60% then that would suck, but as it stands he needs to get 90-100% damage, and with DI you can somtimes avoid death.

I never said I wanted the already broken characters to be even more broken... but I don't want them nerfed, I see no problems with fox or shiek as it stands. Shiek could do with a bit more lag though on her moves, but with L cancelling involved she's still only a litttle bit faster than most, lag wise.

No, the other end of the spectrum is a Falco ditto. Seriously. Go watch a pro Falco ditto...it's so effin' boring.

Maybe to you, the only part I dont like about it is that falco can break out of another falcos pillaring simply by spot dodging then shining, other than that I find it to be an exciting matchup.

 

[Sensai]

Broken characters are the best

That's the definition of a broken character.

You go on to talk about how KirbyKing can 4 stock a '****ty' Fox. Of course he can...if I played my Mewtwo (I don't play Mewtwo for those who don't know) against a ****ty Fox I could take him to school.

If you want to beat people your calibur or higher, what can I say learn a high tier or at least a mid tier.

That's the part we want changed. I'm not saying everyone should be playable at a tournament (that's just not going to happen), but to have only like...6 characters? That's dumb. It needs fixing.

I know you didn't say anything about Fox or Sheik being buffed, I just wanted to have an easy example, and those are the first two that came to mind.

Also: cheap is not some arbitrary word used by only losers. Some things are genuinly unfair and it has nothing to do with the winner or loser of the match. For example, Red Exodus (I think it's him) is always talking about how Fox needs a nerf and he mains Fox. I think Ganon's Fair has an absurd amount of range. I'm pretty sure the only reason people play Peach is for her 'cheap' Dsmash...

 

[Speedsk8er]

It's always the same argument! Scrub vs Pro this. We know that skill is the determining factor. My roomate can beat my Fox with his Yoshi. Sure, Fox is top tier but I suck with him. I can beat his CF with my GaW. GaW is one of my mains and CF one of his. I get lucky alot in those matches(9 FTW). Skill > tiers we know. Now, if two equally skilled players went at it, one using Sheik and the other using GaW, what would happen? GaW = x_x We don't want perfect balance. Just close the gap.

Regardless, I'll still play Bottom tier. And IC.

Also, remove CG but have DK keep them? CGs are the reason for IC's existence too. Of course, ICs don't really have CGs. They more of a throw, nana attack, regrab. So awesome...

PS: I've started picking up Peach and I must say, her Dsmash isn't cheap. It makes you reevaluate the way that you play against her. It's really the only useful smash that she has. She's like one of those bosses that completely flips **** and makes you say, " ahhh. now I get it".

 

[Bowserlick]

Nerfing is the wrong word to use. Establishing a character's niche is a more appropiate way of going about the act of balancing characters. Some characters in Melee gained abilities out of their niche and thus have more tools to work with creating an aspect of unbalance or unfairness.

For example, Sheik was suppose to be designed for damage racking, not KOing. In fact Zelda was suppose to be the powerhouse of the team, but Sheik can KO much easier and at lower percentages. The idea was good, but the execution did not follow the transformation plan.

So does Sheik have to be "nerfed"? Well yes and no. She has to be made to fit her style. That means her KO attacks have to have much less knockback so that a player must use Zelda to finish off a character. Sheik can still have crazy combos. This way she is fair.

Here is another example. Fox is suppose to be quick and good at vertical kills. His light weight and subpar horizantal KOing was suppose to make up for this. But Fox's fast falling speed and lengthy recoveries negate his weight and his reflector gives him fantastic horizantal KOing.

My point is that many of the high tier characters were given too many tools. Why does Marth get speed, strength, small lag, and range! That was a huge mistake.

BUT watering down the character to the point of near unplayability (like Kirby) is at least just as bad if not worse. Kirby in the original Smash had too many things going for him with light weight being the only downside (and this really only affected his vertical deaths). But Kirby in Melee has almost no positive strength besides an extra three small jumps and the risky Kirbicides.

So the point is too focus a character in a fighting style. Bowser needs to be a tank and resist stun. Speed characters have to have less moves that are just as powerful but FASTER than heavy hitters. Ness needs to have much more range on his PK Thunder propulsion and much less lag time on his specials.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Thank god. Ness does need help(biased as hell. He's my secondary main)

Make the PK Thunder last longer and make it cancellable(sheild cancel?). Also, make it turn sharper. KEEP YYG and keep it just as hell to pull off. Add less lag to his yo-yo. Increase the power to his Yo-yo by a little. Make YYG able to be done out of Dsmash also. Make his psi magnet less laggy and JCable. Leave PK flash alone. It's an edgeguard/SUPER CONDITIONAL move let it stay that way. Reflector hitbox on bat, make it bigger and give it damage amp like Mario's Cape or roy's counter. Less lag on PK fire and make it go straight forward, instead of angling down. Of make it chargable like link's bow but aimable also.

OMG Have I broken Ness again?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why does Marth get speed, strength, small lag, and range! That was a huge mistake.

Marth is not that fast. He can still get shield grabbed out of an L-CANCELED FAIR, his FASTEST MOVE. That's why his spacing is so important. The reason that he becomes harder to play at higher levels of play is because he is easilly punished for his mistakes.

Compare his strength to C. Falcon. Doesn't look so strong now does he. And that extra strength that you do see is a reward for the Marth's proper spacing, which isn't that easy when trying to follow an opponent's DI and continue your combo.

 

[HideousBeing]

There could be 3 things done to Marth to appropriately nerf him.
1. Make his attacks cover less area. This goes particularly for his directional arials- all of which are wide sweeps that cover a lot of space. We're looking for moves more like his nair, or jabs in the air.
2. Make his sword shorter or range smaller. Marth's attack range is unnecessary, especially because he can freely abuse it with his disjointed hitbox. If Marth's strokes were shortened, it would make him more easily approached by short range characters like DK and CF.
3. Of course, the last decision is lag time. This should be increased either before his attacks, after his attacks, or both. Marth's move's are quick responding for his long range, and could do to be longer in coming.
Any combination of these would do really. A bit of each, or just one would appropriately nerf Marth.

 

[Chromeless]

I guess that every1 has their own tastes, a rapefest is alot more interesting than a stalemate for me. You want boring? Try watching Peach VS Jiggs or sumtin like that.

Btw, you gave very bad examples... Falco can shine combo Fox like hell, while Fox can CG/nair juggle/shinespike Falco... Marth can edgeguard Falcon very easily, while Falcon can combo Marth llike a volleyball.

My point isn't that those matchups don't have 'broken' elements to them, simply that the match dynamics in those specific cases tend to lead to more interesting matches as opposed to ***** or stalemates.

There are certainly other matchups that are compelling in different ways, but there is barely a matchup that doesn't have either significant imbalance, dial-a-**** or super starefests.

 

[Chromeless]

_________________________

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

So does Sheik have to be "nerfed"? Well yes and no. She has to be made to fit her style. That means her KO attacks have to have much less knockback so that a player must use Zelda to finish off a character. Sheik can still have crazy combos. This way she is fair.

Oh yay, another misguided one. You don't know how this game works. Read the previous pages where people spouted this ''zelda 4 t3h ko!!1'' garbage and see why, im not re-typing it.

 

[BigRick]

There could be 3 things done to Marth to appropriately nerf him.
1. Make his attacks cover less area. This goes particularly for his directional arials- all of which are wide sweeps that cover a lot of space. We're looking for moves more like his nair, or jabs in the air.
2. Make his sword shorter or range smaller. Marth's attack range is unnecessary, especially because he can freely abuse it with his disjointed hitbox. If Marth's strokes were shortened, it would make him more easily approached by short range characters like DK and CF.
3. Of course, the last decision is lag time. This should be increased either before his attacks, after his attacks, or both. Marth's move's are quick responding for his long range, and could do to be longer in coming.
Any combination of these would do really. A bit of each, or just one would appropriately nerf Marth.

Marth is very hard to nerf... just a few differences on him and he turns into a bad character (*cough* Roy). Marth's range and wide hitboxes are the only things that he has... Fast characters (Falcon/Fox) can still deal with that range with speed. And some other chars (Link/Sheik/Falco) can use their better projectiles to disrupt him.

One nerf that could be done to him is to not allow him to swipe through projectiles with regular attacks... He will have to use neutral+b, down+b or up+b to go through them.

If a character doesn't have speed, projectiles or range (he must be pretty bad lol) to deal with Marth... then give him at least one tool that will allow him to fight against Marth. But if you say that his grab range needs a fix, then I definitely agree...

Possible interesting feature: Just like Vega from SF, maybe Marth could lose his sword after taking a certain amount of hits? He would use a knife for that period and he would have to pick his sword back up from the floor...

 

[Speedsk8er]

Oh yay, another misguided one. You don't know how this game works. Read the previous pages where people spouted this ''zelda 4 t3h ko!!1'' garbage and see why, im not re-typing it.

You mean the post that didn't prove much of anything? The thing is, Nintendo DID intend on Zelda/Sheik to be played that way. Are you telling me that you couldn't do a combo, finish it with them being knocked a safe distance away, transform(assuming the tranform time is sped up) and then go for the kill? That's thier intended playstyle. Nintendo made an error with Sheik, giving her too much KO power.

 

[Red Exodus]

That's ********, no matter how you put it. If Nintendo put it that way they were ******** to think that someone would simply letShiek transform to Zelda for a KO, it doesn't make sense. That's like saying character X should only be able to KO with Y [for visualization: Samus should only be able to KO with the full charged shot, no other moves] and all of the other moves are just there to do damage. See how bad it sounds? They should separate Shiek and Zelda and give them new down Bs and be done with it instead of completely reworking the 2 of them.

 

[nuro]

Brawl will most likely support patches.

Wii Memory Specs:
88 MiB main memory (24 MiB "internal" 1T-SRAM integrated into graphics package, 64 MiB "external" GDDR3 SDRAM)

This is easily enough room for few patches. I don't think we should be worrying about the game being glitchy or in need of nerfs.

Actually, I would rather like to see Nintendo make updates for the game instead of just patching it. New characters, Stages, etc. could be added to the game. This would definitely help the value of the game out. Although, it would probably require us to buy a hard drive of some sort I guess. Either way Nintendo would look at this as a good way to make some money.

This also makes it so the whole world has the same game. (PAL version)