The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[BentoBox]

Ness' yoyo shouldn't suck as much!

 

[Inevitable]

Falco is supposed to be faster than Fox, Fox is good the way he is except, his speed should be slightly reduced.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Has anyone ever drew up the giant web of counter-picks?

I think it still applies, maybe not 100% but some of the stuff there is still accurate.

Dont let my off topic post mess with the discussion though.

 

[Rakuen]

Well, it goes according to the current tier order, so I'd say it's pretty accurate.

The goal of balancing is to get as many matchups as possible to the even rating. The 5-4 and 5-3 fights are acceptable. 5-2 is pushing it. 5-1 and 5-0 aren't acceptable for balancing purposes. Those are where problems lie, either because characters are far too weak, or they are far too strong.

Almost all of those fights are because characters are too weak.

 

[alpha n00b]

smash is soooooo unbalanced,
it'll be great to finally see a fair
tier balance.

hopefully.....

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Look, the way I see it the game is fine. Either play high tiers like I and most of the community do, or take a low tier character and become GREAT with him. the tiers do apply but if you have a unique style and are skilled in the foundations of this game (Mindgames, technical ability, tech chasing, etc) then you could be like Taj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd1FFTsecW4

Bottom tier my foot. He won tournies with this mewtwo.

So all these complaints about ''balance'' are unwaranted. They should definatly buff the weaker characters in this game but I see nothing wrong with the ''broken'' characters, because the way I see it, broken = good. And once again, fox omg broken shinespike so cheap usmash so powerful!!!!111!

whatever, unless the fox player pushes fox to his limits and plays him properly fox is a fastfaller, thus hes incredibly incredibly easy to combo. Same with falco... top tier, but if you **** up with falco and get yourself thrown off the edge GOOD LUCK coming back with that recovery.

 

[Classic-Black]

tier balance does not exist, and smash is alot more balanced than most fighting games

 

[Rakuen]

Dylan, there's GOING to be nerfs. It's unavoidable. 'Broken' characters might be fine to you, but they're unacceptable from a development standpoint. If you think SSBB is going to get out without at least a few nerfs, you're just fooling yourself.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

The key is to not nerf anybody. Nerfing only causes regression in the balancing process. By powering up the weak characters the game will reach a balanced state much quicker than it would by constantly nerfing and empowering at the same time. Look at Guilty Gear, that's a game that contains a line-up of characters that are essentially ALL broken, yet it is incredibly balanced, because each characters brokenness, in combination with the defensive mechanisms inherent to the game, make for a very well balanced game. Dave Sirlin wrote an article about this once. I suggest you all find it and read it.

 

[Rakuen]

Comparing GG to SSB is like comparing apples to oranges. They take two entirely different approaches to two entirely different styles of play.

Edit: I read Sirlin's paper, and while yes, there are merits to the system implemented in GGX, it just doesn't translate to SSB. If anything, half of that in GGX is exactly the OPPOSITE in SSB. Sure, we could give every character some completely overpowered trait, but with that inversion of principle, we'd end up with a very unbalanced, rather than a balanced, game.
I think that's the point of items; to even an unbalanced playing field. But because of their implementation, they're unfair from a tournament standpoint.

 

[Inevitable]

Everyone should just be buffed, I don't see the point of making some characters less better than they are now.

 

[MetaKnight0]

The key is to not nerf anybody. Nerfing only causes regression in the balancing process. By powering up the weak characters the game will reach a balanced state much quicker than it would by constantly nerfing and empowering at the same time. Look at Guilty Gear, that's a game that contains a line-up of characters that are essentially ALL broken, yet it is incredibly balanced, because each characters brokenness, in combination with the defensive mechanisms inherent to the game, make for a very well balanced game. Dave Sirlin wrote an article about this once. I suggest you all find it and read it.

So you're telling me that if from Reload to Slash Sol kept his dust loop, Slayer kept good BDC and bite loop and PB dizzies, Millia kept 150 damage combos from a throw as her lowest damage combo into always knockdown and Eddie kept 300 damage combos into knockdown into wakeup unblockable and powered up the other characters there would be incredible fairness? So everyone would have their one little absolutely broken thing but since Ky gets Air Viper Beam he can beat Sol's dustloop, and it just means who gets in the first hit?

Nerfs are done for a reason. Guilty Gear does nerfs all the time, it's just that for a few characters they mess up (Robo-Ky), but they do nerfs and buffs for each character very well in general.

Also lol @ everyone using Taj as example of "bottom tier can win tournaments". He's one guy and he could probably win tournaments with any character he chooses anyways, but that doesn't mean Mewtwo didn't get shafted.

 

[HideousBeing]

Look, the way I see it the game is fine. Either play high tiers like I and most of the community do, or take a low tier character and become GREAT with him. the tiers do apply but if you have a unique style and are skilled in the foundations of this game (Mindgames, technical ability, tech chasing, etc) then you could be like Taj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd1FFTsecW4

Bottom tier my foot. He won tournies with this mewtwo.

So all these complaints about ''balance'' are unwaranted. They should definatly buff the weaker characters in this game but I see nothing wrong with the ''broken'' characters, because the way I see it, broken = good. And once again, fox omg broken shinespike so cheap usmash so powerful!!!!111!

whatever, unless the fox player pushes fox to his limits and plays him properly fox is a fastfaller, thus hes incredibly incredibly easy to combo. Same with falco... top tier, but if you **** up with falco and get yourself thrown off the edge GOOD LUCK coming back with that recovery.

That's what I like to hear! I am annoyed to no end by players of lower tier characters whining about the "imbalance" of the game. I myself play as Zelda and Sheik both during every match. My bro plays Link, and I can thrash him- so his top john is how transforming is cheap (either way) and how Sheik herself is cheap. He is a scrub, and I am still working on well incorporating Wding into my strat myself. He refuses to believe that he can be better (like most n00bs, including me at one point) and blames every loss on these circumstances. I'm glad others at SWF feel the way I do. These are just excuses for lack of dedication. Thank you, Dylan_Tnga;2333934!

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

That's what I like to hear! I am annoyed to no end by players of lower tier characters whining about the "imbalance" of the game. I myself play as Zelda and Sheik both during every match.

My bro plays Link, and I can thrash him- so his top john is how transforming is cheap (either way) and how Sheik herself is cheap. He is a scrub, and I am still working on well incorporating Wding into my strat myself.

He refuses to believe that he can be better (like most n00bs, including me at one point) and blames every loss on these circumstances. I'm glad others at SWF feel the way I do. These are just excuses for lack of dedication. Thank you, Dylan_Tnga;2333934!

Ok, what I want you to do is print out this image, and put it somewhere where he can see it while you play smash :

I -hate- scrubs. You should also show him this article

http://sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

 

[HideousBeing]

Ok, what I want you to do is print out this image, and put it somewhere where he can see it while you play smash :

I -hate- scrubs. You should also show him this article

http://sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

L-O-L! Hilarious pic! The article was also very informative- I admit though, that I have often called the original Smash Bros imbalanced. I have never seen actual pro matches. Is this because it is too imbalanced? I just have heard that characters such as Ness, and DK are far too good, because of their quick spike moves. (That's not all I think...) Have you ever played this game? Would I be a scrub to call it imbalanced? I also admit that I have played by a code of morals before- I stop chain throwing my bro (who plays as Link if I didn't mention that) after three times usually, even though three provokes extremely agitated sighs and a grim shake of the head. I have also learned to work around a strat of his I once dubbed cheap until I realized it had flaws. He used to always edgeguard me with spin attack when I was hanging onto the ledge. If I rose up- he would get me. If I rolled up- he would get me. If I attacked up- he would usually get me. So I began to get around it using Y to jump up, and a new tactic I learned from darkatma I believe- (this with Zelda) to drop off, and then quickly double jump acompanied by a lightning kick to the face and safe landing. In general though, I learned that to counter this, just drop off the ledge, and pop back up with an attack or air dodge to avoid. Thanks again for your... assisstance.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

L-O-L! Hilarious pic! The article was also very informative- I admit though, that I have often called the original Smash Bros imbalanced. I have never seen actual pro matches. Is this because it is too imbalanced?

Well, thing is there are 0-death combos with every character, technically if you're good enough as soon as you land one hit on someone with any character you should be able to kill them. Pika/ness/ and ESPECIALLY kirby are not even top tier, they're GOD tier in that one because they're incredibly broken. Im a falcon player, falcon can 0-death quite easily.

If you want to see pro SSB go to youtube and search ''isai ssb'' and watch videos. Itll blow your mind.

I just have heard that characters such as Ness, and DK are far too good, because of their quick spike moves. (That's not all I think...) Have you ever played this game? Would I be a scrub to call it imbalanced?

Its more Ness' jump cancelling that makes him broken more than anything, refer to isai's ness. And DK isnt all that good. (I find) And yes that would make you a scrub, so you should drop that opinion.

I have played this game, infact ever since it came out, and I play it online almost everyday often with people from these boards.

I also admit that I have played by a code of morals
before- I stop chain throwing my bro (who plays as Link if I didn't mention that) after three times usually, even though three provokes extremely agitated sighs and a grim shake of the head.

You should keep chainthrowing him, and get as many A jabs as you can in before throwing him again. Tell him its his fault for getting grabbed at the wrong percentage and to get better at the game.

I have also learned to work around a strat of his I once dubbed cheap until I realized it had flaws. He used to always edgeguard me with spin attack when I was hanging onto the ledge. If I rose up- he would get me. If I rolled up- he would get me. If I attacked up- he would usually get me.

Im glad you found a way around it. Thats a patheticly predictable and easy edgeguard to get around if he does it EVERY time. Im a shiek main and I would just ledgehop (drop down and then use my double jump) then do and up b but teleport downwards and grab the edge agian, (you're invincible while you do this) draw out the spin attack, then get back onto the stage during his lag and chainthrow him to 150% to a fair.

Thanks again for your... assisstance.

Glad to help.

 

[Rakuen]

Its more Ness' jump cancelling that makes him broken more than anything, refer to isai's ness.

Wasn't another big part from Ness having the highest precedence move in the game?

And once again, fell out of my chair. I even knew the picture was coming and it still happened.

 

[Speedsk8er]

You guys know that it's that kind of elitist attitude that's going to kill Smash Bros right? Smash Bros is supposed to be accessible, yet profoundly deep. The game is deep already but if the online world is filled with remarks like this, "Noobs" will not find this game accessible...

I'd like to think that EVERYONE here that goes to Smashboards KNOWS that skill is the determining factor. I know that. That still doesn't help the fact that the game is imbalanced. Make all the "scrub" remarks the you want. If a Fox and a Pichu of the exact same skill level went at it, who would win? It sure isn't in Pichu's favor. Fox is faster, stronger, heavier and just all around better. I'm not saying that skill doesn't apply. I'm also not saying that the game should be perfectly balanced because I know perfect balance is impossible. I'm also NOT saying that all top-tiers should be Ness-ed or Kirby-ed. I'm saying introduce a little more balance to the game because this game needs it. Jeez...

 

[Sensai]

The thing that made Ness so entirely broken in 64 was the DJC and the massive amounts of shield stun. And yes, his yo-yo needs NOT suck for Brawl.

You guys know that it's that kind of elitist attitude that's going to kill Smash Bros right? Smash Bros is supposed to be accessible, yet profoundly deep. The game is deep already but if the online world is filled with remarks like this, "Noobs" will not find this game accessible...

I'd like to think that EVERYONE here that goes to Smashboards KNOWS that skill is the determining factor. I know that. That still doesn't help the fact that the game is imbalanced. Make all the "scrub" remarks the you want. If a Fox and a Pichu of the exact same skill level went at it, who would win? It sure isn't in Pichu's favor. Fox is faster, stronger, heavier and just all around better. I'm not saying that skill doesn't apply. I'm also not saying that the game should be perfectly balanced because I know perfect balance is impossible. I'm also NOT saying that all top-tiers should be Ness-ed or Kirby-ed. I'm saying introduce a little more balance to the game because this game needs it. Jeez...

This has to be one of the best posts I've ever seen.

The 'elitist' attitude you're referring to isn't really characteristic of all Smashers, just like the ******* attitude isn't characteristic of all Halo players (although, to be fair, it usually's pretty close). To say that the online world of Smash will be filled with insults and jabs is probably not anywhere near true, at least not from the competitive Smash community.

Seriously, we've all been to tournaments (rather, most of us). Has there EVER been a time where you've called the other guy a noob? Or said that somebody sucked? No, there hasn't. This might be due to the fact that you're sitting next to someone and you're unable to be an ******* without starting a fight, but I'd like to believe it's due to decent human nature in Smashers. It's what I'm banking on.

The problem with this whole balance issue is that it's kinda hard to do. Before advanced techs, if you put a Jiggs and a Fox against one another, who would you guess would win? The answer's clearly Fox. Now, add in the things that the creators didn't intend, and Jiggs wrecks Fox.

Although your point rings true...some characters are just terrible while others are godly, and they should definitely be balanced.

 

[Ianthraxx]

If you want to see pro SSB go to youtube and search ''isai ssb'' and watch videos. Itll blow your mind.

Hahaha, holy crap. o_o That makes me happy in my pants.

I beat everyone I know by a large margin in SSB and especially SSBM... I was thinking I should try my hand at a tournament...

...............maybe not... XD

 

[Red Exodus]

Ok, here's a post I made a while ago, I think it's the same argument I want to use here so instead of wasting my time re-writing I'll just post it.

This was in response to a scrub that said "You don't know how it feel to get 0-death comboed by someone who is obviously way better than you".

I'll remove the quote tags so you can dissect it if you want.


__________________________________


Well duuuh, if the person is better do you honestly expect to beat them? Do you think it's fair for someone practice and get good only for some casual people to come in and fight toe to toe?

If you think perfect balance is as good as it sounds play Runescape [MMORPG]. The game is so retardedly [meh] balanced that you rely more on luck than skill [as in levels] I've seen people play that game for months and years hoping they get "better" and that their hard work pays off. But nope, it doesn't. People still get owned by noobs and all of the 'advantages' are useless by the time people get to the level [required to get that said advantage].

So next time you get your *** handed to you, give the person a handshake and say "your hard work paid off".


Oh yeah, and tiers don't mean crap [or as much as you think]. Give Shiek to a newb and they'll suck. Give Fox to a newb and they'll suck. Give Shiek to a casual player and they'll suck. Give Fox to a casual player and they'll suck. When I say they'll suck they won't combo well, they won't KO efficently, nothing. To be good in Smash you have to apply basic knowledge.

If you don't know what to use WDing with it will be useless to your character. People own because they master the basics. They learn SHFFLing [and L-cancelling obviously], they learn WDing, they learn JCing, they learn moonwalking, they learn chain grabbing, they learn edgehogging/gaurding.
By learning those [non character specific] techniques [like wobbling and chain grabbing] they can apply it to other characters, and that is where the game gets deep.

They don't just pick a top tier and automatically own either, you have to learn the character. Take for instance, someone who [by some divine intervention] has never seen Fox in SSBM for his enitre SSBM 'career'. He's learned to do all of the advanced techniques and learned to play as other characters well but, for unexplainable reason, has never seen Fox in the game.

He doesn't know how Fox moves work, his lag times, or anything. Now I suppose you say he'd own correct? Well he wouldn't. He'd SD a lot but SHFFling fairs off the stage, he'd dair off the stage, he'd illusion Fox off the stage and get hit when the lag of illuson Fox starts and he would only use the shine to project things [because no one picks up the game as knows shine can be used offensively, since he doesn't know Fox's shine stuns until he learns Fox's useless moves and his useful moves.

So when you talk about balance take into consideration that no 2 people are evenly matched. It's not possible.

____________________

 

[GreenMamba]

Smashboards--the only place where you can get flamed for suggesting a game should be more balanced.

Of course the game shouldn't be dumbed down so that a noob could beat a pro, but that doesn't mean the game shouldn't strive for Guilty Gear esque level of balance, which it currently can't even touch.

 

[Rakuen]

So when you talk about balance take into consideration that no 2 people are evenly matched. It's not possible.

I believe that's the reason we always assume the metagame...

 

[rm88]

Peach would be god tier if she keeps her Dsmash using this dress:

Back on topic, I don't see what's wrong with some balance. More balance means more characters can be competitive, and that adds more variety. I'm sick of fighting Fox and Sheik.

 

[Sensai]

The problem is, as many have said, is that it's impossible to balance everyone. If you balance everyone, then there's no point really in choosing different characters. If (and we're going to use Phanna's terminology) everyone is a 5 on everyone else, then there's no point in even switching up characters. Each character has to have noticeable weaknesses and noticeable strengths.

Look at Ganon, who is, IMO, almost a perfect representation of a balanced character. He's strong, but not strong enough so that one hit you're dead. To balance this out, he's slower then most of the roster, but not slow to the point he's unable to be used. Also, his recovery is pretty terrible for getting back on the ledge, while his sideways recovery is one of the better in the game.

So if you throw Ganon into a match up against Sheik, the advantage clearly goes to the girl: Sheik's too farking quick, the Fair makes it so that even with perfect DI Ganon can't really do his Down B to recover well, a Dthrow on Ganon either leads to an upsmash or more chaingrabbing/Ftilt to Fair combos, etc. And that's fine and dandy (really, I don't mind so much) so long as Ganon's got some better matchups as well: Samus, Puff, even Peach and Marth.

Characters like Roy/Pichu/Mewtwo though...they just got screwed. THAT'S where the balance is needed. The upper half of the tier list (down to Ganon, actually) is perfectly fine. From there down, though, needs help.

 

[Red Exodus]

Well play agianst people who don't main those characters. People have a choice so it's only fair to expect people to make the best choice they see, even if it's by a little advantage.

Personally I'm a Fox main, going 4 years now [3 and a half of those years were spent playing casualy] , I can't drill shine, waveshine or anything because I didn't know about them when I played smash. Now that my GC's lense needs calibrating all I can use my GC for is data management on memory cards.

I think people just don't trust their skill enough to to use other characters that fit their style. Which is why I main around 5 characters well, so counterpicking in a breeze.


Sensai perfectly summed up the problem with crappy characters, Fox isn't extremely overpowered [which is why most of the characters above medium tier stand a chance against Fox], other [medium/low/bottom tier] characters are just extremely underpowered.

 

[GreenMamba]

The problem is, as many have said, is that it's impossible to balance everyone. If you balance everyone, then there's no point really in choosing different characters. If (and we're going to use Phanna's terminology) everyone is a 5 on everyone else, then there's no point in even switching up characters. Each character has to have noticeable weaknesses and noticeable strengths.

Of course perfect balance will never be obtained, but why would anyone want a game where picking your character is nearly as important as the skills you have?

EDIT: I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, but I'd much rather have everything come down to just how much skill you have and allow you to play as a character that perfectly suits your style rather than playing a game of rock-paper-scissors.

 

[Red Exodus]

Because it adds strategy. Smash wouldn't be anywhere near as fun if everyone was even versus everyone. It's nice to see some characters have normal weaknesses against others [ICs vs peach/marth/samus] but I do believe some characters have too many advantages in matchups. Enter Fox.

 

[GreenMamba]

Alright, far be it from me to pull any fun you have in the game.

Whatever happens to the returning characters happens.

 

[Sensai]

I dunno, I can't speak for everyone, but I'd much rather have everything come down to just how much skill you have and allow you to play as a character that perfectly suits your style rather than playing a game of rock-paper-scissors.

I understand what you're saying about wanting it to be purely skill based, but do you mean technical skill or ability to mindgame (I hate that word...it's so freakin' broad)? I would LOVE for the game to go to the person who can trick the opponent more, but I don't think it'll ever be like that. If everyone has different moves, then some moves will work better against some people.

And I don't want it to be (as you excellently put it) a game of rock, paper, scissors, but I think that that should definitely play a part in it.

 

[GreenMamba]

I meant both technical ability and mindgaming, but yeah, it won't ever be that way. But a man can dream though, can't he?

 

[HideousBeing]

There's a point where if characters are continually improved that their move reaction time is quick enough for all characters are equal, and the match should be entirely mindgames. I would say Melee is nearly there. It doesn't matter if a character (ie. Bowswer) responds generally slower than other characters. It all boils down to intuition.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

. That still doesn't help the fact that the game is imbalanced. Make all the "scrub" remarks the you want. If a Fox and a Pichu of the exact same skill level went at it, who would win?

Fox would win 8 out of 10 games, according to phanna's ssbm character match up chart, provided both players are at the same level, and are elite.

Fox would win in your scenario, but you miss the point of ''skill matters''

What Im saying is that Chudats Pichu will 2-3 stock your fox, garunteed, even if you know how to play fox. Why? Skill. Tiers matter, but skill is what triumphs over all.

But of course combining skill and high tier is the best way to go.

 

[greenblob]

Tiers and balance only matter at top levels of play anyway...

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Tiers and balance only matter at top levels of play anyway...

For sure. if your friend plays fox but cant do waveshine combos or mindgame properly or know when to hit ya with the techchase jumpcanceld upsmash then you can beat him with pikachu, or kirby, or whatever.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Fox would win 8 out of 10 games, according to phanna's ssbm character match up chart, provided both players are at the same level, and are elite.

Fox would win in your scenario, but you miss the point of ''skill matters''

What Im saying is that Chudats Pichu will 2-3 stock your fox, garunteed, even if you know how to play fox. Why? Skill. Tiers matter, but skill is what triumphs over all.

But of course combining skill and high tier is the best way to go.

The Chudat Pichu comment is somewhat irrelevant because I suck at this game, especially when compared to Chu.

However, it is true that the best players make the worst characters look good. Look at Gimpyfish(one of the reasons I picked up Bowser). But are you telling me that Gimpy wouldn't appreciate a little buff to make Bowser more competitive?

I guess I understand everyone's stance on nerfing top tier but some things(falco's dair, Fox's Upsmash, Sheik's fair, etc) need to be changed/fixed. Whatever. Buff everyone else.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

This is all tricky business. It all comes down to what nintendo decides to do, we all want different things an no matter what the changes are going to piss some people off, and please others.

I really don't like the idea of nerfing characters soley because they're top tier though, they're top for a reason, it means their moves work very well, so I see no point in destroying a moveset that has proved itself useful in the past, but I do see everyones point about buffs...

it it were up to me I would probably buff the characterst that were neglected in melee but leave the top tiers as they are. Realize that you have to be -good- with shiek to win, its not as easy as it looks to play her properly you still have to be insanely fast, and good at mindgames/ predicting DI and everything else that all characters rely on to win.

 

[Inevitable]

I think they should buff/improve all the characters, not make them weaker.

All the characters are so fun, I don't see why someone would take away something from a character.

 

[Sensai]

I think they should buff/improve all the characters, not make them weaker.

You sound like an employee at Blizzard.

And Dylan, the reason characters (some of them, Sheik) are top tier is because they're broken. Her down throw is simply and undeniably overpowered. Same with Peach's Dsmash on fast-fallers.

 

[Inevitable]

You sound like an employee at Blizzard.

Can't tell if that's a compliment or an insult.