The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[Speedsk8er]

People like that annoy me. "Look a high/top tier main, he just wants the easy way out". I already made a long post about this, but if someone that plays a character like Mario well and moves to Fox for the very first time they'll SD a lot.

Firefox into the stage near the edge causes you to bounce which is an SD, Fox illusion off the stage is an SD [unless you are trying to get back] a fair and dair of the stage is an SD. The only way people find these out is through experience, you can't just pick up a character and own no matter what tier the character is.

And I hate people that become douche-bags when I suggest a fix to the balancing issues of the game. He's the guy that insulted me for calling out his characters because they need tweaks. Also, don't pull that high-tier bull on me. I main ICs and last time I checked, they were high/upper mid tier too. Hell, I used to main Marth and I suggested tweaks for them both. Now, before more **** hits the fan, continue the discussion.

 

[BigRick]

PAL Sheik is nerfed enough already... she shouldn't be any different from what she is.

I wanna see Mewtwo become a friggen heavyweight... Pokédex says that he weights over 200 pounds or sumtin. Then he'll be able to ***** CC d-tilt and he will be able to use more d-tilt combos. Adjust the hitboxes on his tail based attacks... add a little bit of range to confusion, increase mew2's recovery time so that he gets frame advantage when he lands it. Instead of causing sleep, disable should disable b-moves of a short period of time... make it so that you can hit airborne opponents with it, disable should have very little hit stun... nice combo would linking something into disable then back throw, they're screwed haha.

I wanna see Bowser dominate and stuff. F-smash should come out faster and should deal insane damage to shield, then reduce the knockback of the move. His Fair should be at least like Ganon's Fair. Increase the range/damage of koopa klaw grab, increase knockback of backward koopa claw throw. Add shield stun to his moves, add priority to his shell based attacks, increase damage and priority of flamethrower... make it cancellable on landing too. Down-B should have some sort of quake effect added to it... like DK's down B. FASTER NAIR TO BREAK OUT OF COMBOS!!!

Kirby... have you seen the hitbox of his aerial over-B? it's ridiculous! Give him fatter hitboxes for his attacks, especially up+b, dash attack, all of his aerials (Jigg got fat hitboxes, Kirby deserves it too...) and up-smash. Make his n-air come out faster, should be as fast as other nairs. Reduce the unnecessary lag that they put on all of his smashes. Decrease the startup time on his smashes, give him the same startup times that Fox has and change trajectory of f-smash for a more horizontal trajectory. More invincibility frames in his feet during dsmash. Add knockback to his dash attack if Kirby hit... if flame hit then just add burn damage. Kirby should have either a forward or backward throw that will allow him to throw his opponent of the ledge so that he can go for the edgeguard after that.

Well, that was a start.... tell me what you think. I'll add my feedback on some other bottom tiers later.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No, PAL Sheik is still a beast, just search for videos just see for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEvXeoFXlKo&mode=related&search=. Watch the whole video.

Sheik should just be cutted from Brawl, what reasons do they have to keep her?

 

[BigRick]

No, PAL Sheik is still a beast

I know that, but if you add a few more nerfs... she won't be anymore.

Why keep Sheik? Cause shes a friggen transsexual ninja!

 

[WR3K]

all i ask is that in the new brawl intro movie they show marth's corpse slowly decaying away to many maggots breeding in his dried blood.....







and balance him with all the other *******s who decided to be too good....


oh and make link able to be played competitivly (more then he is now atleast)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...well, you're the one who said "you mention my **** size but you main both Falco and Sheik? Haha! 'Sup, irony?"

That suggests plenty of things, wouldn't you agree?

I don't think Dylan was repudiating the fact that you called out his characters. I do believe he was calling you out for some of your opinions---some of which were a bit lame (c'mon, SHLs with Falco and the Big Knee of Justice with Falcon are not that annoying or even overpowered).

But, you're right. No need for any crap to hit the fan.

As for Big Rick, I have to say that you got some pretty good ideas (Mewtwo was two hundred pounds? Are you sure about that? Lol). I especially like your suggestions for Bowser. He needs to be a beefy powerhouse that tears through feeble defenses like a blowtorch to a stick of butter.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Speedsk8er]

I actually picked Bowser up a few days ago(around the same day I made this thread) and he REALLY needs help.

1. Resistance- or "battle armor" like someone else said. Bowser should be a damage sponge. Projectiles shouldn't even matter to him. I know a Falco that LOVES SHL and when I play Bowser, It's quite an annoyance getting to him. He should be able to walk through certain projectiles(ie: SHL, Mario's fireballs, Samus's soft missile/babychargeshot), receiving all of the damage but no knockback. This should also be done for all jabs and some tilts. Or better yet, give him a Metapod-like "harden" ability that gives him the "armor". The difference here is, instead if being innate and working for some attacks,m it's triggered and works for all attacks(so he could walk through a charge shot, full). Be careful when doing it though, it will be laggy(a little moreso than Fsmash) and it only lasts 5 seconds.
2. More range: do i need to say more?
3. Shell priority.



Anything else?

 

[Rakuen]

As for Big Rick, I have to say that you got some pretty good ideas (Mewtwo was two hundred pounds? Are you sure about that?

I pulled out my copy of Pokemon Blue to check, he's 6'7" and weighs 269 pounds.
For perspective, that means he has 1/3 of Donkey Kong's weight (800 pounds).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I pulled out my copy of Pokemon Blue to check, he's 6'7" and weighs 269 pounds.
For perspective, that means he has 1/3 of Donkey Kong's weight (800 pounds).

Good God.

I never knew that Mewtwo was so heavy. Thanks for that tidbit, guys.

 

[greenblob]

Fox always had his up smash. His SSB forward smash sent him forward too (although the animation is different).
Kirby's forward smash was never that great. Sure, it was good for edgeguarding and for finishing a small fraction of Kirby's combos, but aren't all forward smashes like that? Unless you were a noob--then you just used forward smash repeatedly since your opponents didn't know how to tech. And his up smash was crap. His good moves were dair, nair, bair, fair and up tilt. Kirby never had any other good ground options except perhaps his down tilt, which was very similar to Marth's down tilt.

 

[Sensai]

Whoever said the thing about Samus not supposed to have the bomb recovery thing, I think you're only kinda right. Even in Smash 64, she could use bombs to get back, but not like Melee Samus. I'm pretty sure they'll keep that in, though...Samus is, along with Ganon, one of those characters who is near balanced in my opinion.

And Metaknight will definitely, without a doubt, be the first person I try out (unless Ganon's a starter and Meta's not, or something like that). Not because of the fact that he's broken (notice I said he is, not he might be. That's because he WILL be broken), but because of my fond memories of him in Superstar on the SNES. Just remembering him throw down a sword for Kirby to pick up....chill bumps.

[Edit:]

Metaknight DOES look like he might be the Sheik of Brawl.

Missed this post...

Metaknight won't be the Sheik of Brawl, as that spot looks to be Z-Samus. Metaknight'll be more like the Marth, where he's easy to pick up and be good with and then you need to learn how to be great with him.

 

[MetaKnight0]

metaknight thats not balancing , thats top/high tier supa nerf. u want them to become new kirbys

Other than Peach I've barely touched the top tier characters if you think how badly Kirby and Pikachu were nerfed. I'll quote my post so guys can see what I put down.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2325879&postcount=59

Fox:

I basically took the gay out of Fox's shine and kill moves and didn't touch anything else of his. Without shine he would have to think about his rushdown and without a 4 frame Up Smash or something like that or 90% kills from Up Air he might actually have to work for kills.

Falco:

Get rid of laser camping which destroys most of the low tiers, make Down Air PAL, slow down his shine, slow down his rushdown, and in the trade I give him a better Forward Air so better spacing and better Back Throw gives him a better throw game.

Marth:

Roy should've been stronger in the first place. Since I posted that there would be no more chain-grabbing hopefully Marth's grabs sending out further and doing more damage would actually prove to be helpful while preventing his stupidly high damage combos. Fair nerf weakens his wall of sword, Down Tilt makes his edge-guarding more liveable, and PAL changes are also quite nice since he's still top over there.

Sheik:

Maybe people would actually use Zelda with Sheik nerfs especially with the kill moves = o. Put a damper on Sheik's killing and giving her a way to combo fast fallers at low percentages seems fair to me.

Peach:

Notice I didn't touch her priority, she could still probably hit you out of a lot of crap. Back Air camping hurts a ton of low tiers, Down Smash is just ******** right now, FC nerf is necessary cuz if it was still in there with others being nerfed Peach would be b-b-b-broke.

Low tiers are more complicated, because either they have a couple of horrible attributes that hold them back (Mewtwo, Bowser), suck everywhere (Kirby, Pichu) or just simply need to be entirely reworked (Kirby).

BigRock: lol your workings on Mewtwo would make him top tier >_>

 

[Banks]

and they should amp kirby up lolol

 

[Fawriel]

I actually like MetaKnight's changes, he apparently put a lot of thought into them. And even if Fox lacks his up-smash and infinites, he's still the ultimate in quickness. Maybe add to his weight a little in exchange or something.
And Sheik should definitely have to rely in Zelda for kills. Which would automatically mean that they'd have to get a faster transformation and that Zelda needs to be made... usable.

 

[Red Exodus]

Shiek probably isn't going to be in Brawl. Since they're using TP Link they'll probably use TP Zelda.

If Shiek does return I wouldn't want to rely on Zelda for kills. Why? Because other characters aren't forced to transform like that. No other character has 2 movesets, stats or anything of the sort to put up with. The closest comparison would be ICs.

ICs can still KO without Nana, it's harder but it's possible. But saying Shiek should reply on Zelda is like saying ICs should rely on each other for a KO, and if Nana goes then Popo shouldn't be able to KO. I doubt Samus/ZSS will be like that either.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Shiek probably isn't going to be in Brawl. Since they're using TP Link they'll probably use TP Zelda.

If Shiek does return I wouldn't want to rely on Zelda for kills. Why? Because other characters aren't forced to transform like that. No other character has 2 movesets, stats or anything of the sort to put up with. The closest comparison would be ICs.

ICs can still KO without Nana, it's harder but it's possible. But saying Shiek should reply on Zelda is like saying ICs should rely on each other for a KO, and if Nana goes then Popo shouldn't be able to KO. I doubt Samus/ZSS will be like that either.

That was the point! The characters are totally different for a reason. Sheik is the in-your-face, combo-heavy one that racks up damage. Zelda is supposed to be the slow, powerful one. Nintendo didn't intend for you to use each seperately, or else they would have made them seperate characters.

As a side note, I think Zamus will be a "consequence" for using her super of receiving too much damage. The transformation won't be triggered by you.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

And Sheik should definitely have to rely in Zelda for kills. Which would automatically mean that they'd have to get a faster transformation and that Zelda needs to be made... usable.

Ok, but that would make shiek unplayable at high levels. Smash isnt about racking up % and then hitting with a ''kill move'' 90% of the time you combo someone to death, or combo them off the edge and then edgeguard them. Thinking % or ammount of stocks you have matters in smash is the noob way to think, smash is about control, and something as stupid as transforming back into zelda will lose the control you fought hard to earn with shiek.

If shiek is nerfed anything more than slightly or not in Brawl thatll suck for me, shes my main.

As a side note, I think Zamus will be a "consequence" for using her super of receiving too much damage. The transformation won't be triggered by you.

lol, I HIGHLY doubt that. I'd put 50$ on the line that you're wrong on that one.

Metaknight won't be the Sheik of Brawl, as that spot looks to be Z-Samus. Metaknight'll be more like the Marth, where he's easy to pick up and be good with and then you need to learn how to be great with him.

He wont be the Marth of brawl, he's a flying character so already he's going to be radically different in playability. I know thats not what you're saying though, just figured Id state it because ive heard people compare him to marth before (in playstyle) because of his sword, which is stupid. Besides, what you said about easy to pick up hard to be great with applies to pretty much any high/top tier character in melee and most of the mid tiers. Becoming great with a low tier takes a lot longer I think.

To me it seems more like Jigglypuff with a sword and a slightly worse recovery (He doesnt have pound but we have yet to see his up b)

So yeah I think metaknights gonna be either top or high tier, think of the edgeguarding, you can fly off the edge and sword the guy in the face, plus the sword will obviously be a disjointed hitbox which means death.

 

[Fawriel]

Ok, but that would make shiek unplayable at high levels. Smash isnt about racking up % and then hitting with a ''kill move'' 90% of the time you combo someone to death, or combo them off the edge and then edgeguard them. Thinking % or ammount of stocks you have matters in smash is the noob way to think, smash is about control, and something as stupid as transforming back into zelda will lose the control you fought hard to earn with shiek.

Well, yeah, I guess so. Even making the transformation quicker would probably not suffice. Zelda could be an edgeguarder, though. Or about the infamous mindgames. And she's supposed to be defensive, so she should actually shine in that respect. So, say you accidently lose control, you turn to Zelda and use mindgames to either go for the overdue kill or be defensive to regain control or.. something. But yeah, Sheik/Zelda would end up being upper mid-tier or so. Whatever. Nevermind me.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Well, yeah, I guess so. Even making the transformation quicker would probably not suffice. Zelda could be an edgeguarder, though. Or about the infamous mindgames. And she's supposed to be defensive, so she should actually shine in that respect. So, say you accidently lose control, you turn to Zelda and use mindgames to either go for the overdue kill or be defensive to regain control or.. something. But yeah, Sheik/Zelda would end up being upper mid-tier or so. Whatever. Nevermind me.

Well you make a good point about a faster transformation, I mean you're invincible while you turn into zelda/shiek but you lag afterwards so theres no real reason to ever do it except out of a ledgehop, only way to do it safely. Lag = bad = you grabbed = you dead. So the transformation as it stands is stupid.

But, if zelda sucked less, and the transformation was quicker I see no real reason shiek player wouldnt implement the down b move.

Its only the ''zelda for the kill'' idea that I think is incorrect, a lot of people throw that one around without realizing that if you cant turn into zelda mid combo (and that will never happen no matter how fast the transform is) its not viable to turn into zelda for the kill, thats all

 

[Sensai]

Besides, what you said about easy to pick up hard to be great with applies to pretty much any high/top tier character in melee and most of the mid tiers. Becoming great with a low tier takes a lot longer I think.

Now that I think about it, you're right. With the exception of Samus and the ICs, most upper based characters are easier to play then the lower based ones...

Y'see, I think it should be the opposite. I'm not sure how they would do it, but it'd be nice if you were rewarded for having a rocky beginning....

God **** I'm such a liberal. :-D

[Edit:]

And this whole 'Zelda for the kill thing' seems to me to be the way that Nintendo had originally planned it, but due to higher level play (that they weren't quite expecting) it never ended up being like that. Seeing how it worked out, I honestly have to say that it's just a bad idea all around...

My reasoning is simple: relying on Zelda to kill is just like relying on the Knee to kill, except you get a LOT more variety. It's unfair to give someone two movesets, one to rack up the damage and the other to kill. It's just dumb.

 

[rm88]

If shiek is nerfed anything more than slightly or not in Brawl thatll suck for me

I don't want to be pessimistic, but Brawl will more likely suck for you. I hope Peach doesn't get too nerfed either, at least they can't make Kirby any worse.

 

[Inevitable]

They should make Marth's sword longer, Fox's up air and up smash stronger, Give Falco Fox's recovery...or possibly longer, make Peach's down smash longer and stronger and make Shiek's down smash stronger and her forward aerial.

 

[Red Exodus]

^ /Sarcasm.

Peach is overpowered if you ask me. Shiek is nowhere near as broken as Peach is. Her dsmash does like 70% easily. At least her >B sucks.

 

[Doc_Holiday]

I say they make Sonic the slowest character.

 

[Sensai]

^^^

Oh how ironical it would all be....

And Red Exodus, who do you play as? There aren't many characters that make someone think that Peach is more overpowered then Sheik.

And it only does that much if you crouch-cancel. Otherwise it (usually) only hits once, for not nearly as much. The thing that bothers me is that it sends you flying off and backwards, making it much more difficult to recover (as Ganon/Falcon). But, I've moved past my Peach problem. Just Sheik now. :-/

 

[rm88]

^ /Sarcasm.

Peach is overpowered if you ask me. Shiek is nowhere near as broken as Peach is. Her dsmash does like 70% easily. At least her >B sucks.

Sheik got somewhat nerfed in the PAL version, even Nintendo noticed how unfair Sheik is. Peach is not overpowered, one single move that can be really powerful if you CC is not enough to be considered overpowered, she's below Sheik in the tier list.

 

[Red Exodus]

A few [yes, I'm a man of many mains.[say that 10 times fast!] of my main mains get owned by Peach the most, no matter what. Fox and Falcon take her dsmash the worst, well after ICs. I usually get caught by it when I try to combo Peach at low percentages, or when Peach CCs and dsmashes.

Normally I pick Marth or Samus for Peach and it works out for me but my other mains have a much harder time for some reason.

 

[Speedsk8er]

lol, I HIGHLY doubt that. I'd put 50$ on the line that you're wrong on that one.

Hell, dude, I'm just going off of the trailer and the "certain conditions" stipulation that's been mentioned regarding her. What's your reason?

 

[Xeorogue]

What an awesome thread! BUFF BOTTOM TIER AND NERF TOP TIER CAUSE I CANT WIN AGAINST THEM! Thank you thread creator for this amazing idea of a topic.

 

[HideousBeing]

sIf IC returns, make it just one. Popo or Nana. I never understood why they were put together as one character. They were just as separate as Mario and Luigi in the original game. Maybe its because you could actually play 2 player together? I think its silly- there should just be one of them, and you could change the costume to get the other. Similarly to the Daisy costume Peach has. I mean, this would be like Daisy and Diddy being thrown together as a tag team from DKC2. If the IC returned as one ice climber only, he or she would have to be improved a bit, because obviously taking away Nana would prove too much of a nerf. They would have to come up with a new idea for the jump too.

Edit: My dream is for the game to be so bloody balanced there is no teirs. Imagine that. Nintendo hopefully will be able to add patches that will make this come true. Highly doubt it though.

 

[Fawriel]

..that would kind of defeat the purpose of their existence.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'd rather not see ICs than have the split up. Why? Because they're fun [I scare the crap out my friends with them] and original. Everybody else is similar in the sense that they don't have a partner but ICs actually require you to play differently, even at scrub level [which is why noobs don't main ICs, they lose Nana easily].

 

[BigRick]

''If IC returns, make it just one. Popo or Nana. I never understood why they were put together as one character.''

It adds variety to the game. Variety is usually a nice thing to have.

 

[Red Exodus]

I think he wants them separated because of wobblers. Wobbling isn't that bad if you ask me, just pause when you're being wobbled [I think that's allowed in tournaments] and unpause to get out, simple.

 

[Speedsk8er]

What an awesome thread! BUFF BOTTOM TIER AND NERF TOP TIER CAUSE I CANT WIN AGAINST THEM! Thank you thread creator for this amazing idea of a topic.

What an awesome post. RIDICULE THE THREAD CREATOR BECAUSE THEY SUGGESTED SOMETHING THAT COULD ADD BALANCE TO THE GAME BECAUSE I PROBABLY MAIN A TOP TIER AND WOULD FEEL SCARED IF OTHER CHARACTERS HAD A FIGHTING CHANCE. Shut the hell up, dude, you aren't clever and are far from right. I 4-stocked my friend's Falco with my Game and Watch. I beat my friend's Fox with my Iceys. I CAN BEAT A CF WITH MEWTWO. Don't give me that bull. Be quiet if you're not gonna add anything, *******. *sigh*

For every post that contributes something, there's another post with elitist remarks trying to tear others down. Is this how you make yourself feel like you're good?


[edit]= As far as wobbling goes, make it so that the Icey's Ftilt and Dtilt knocks opponents out of your grasp.

 

[Perfect Hero]

Everyone who is flaming the guy, give him a break. Not everyone wants nerfs just because they can't win against higher tiers. Remember tiers are of the current metagame, so the suckier you are at the game, the least it applies to you.

The thing is, it's not about "I can't beat higher tiers, I want them nerfed so I can beat them." It's more like "Lets try balancing this game." Well, that's my mentality at least .

My ideas,
Mewtwo
I'd like Mewtwo to get a different style of gameply in brawl. Mewtwo should have an emphasis on Down+B and Forward+B. In order to do that.
1. Reduce a few frames one startup and windup of the two B moves.
2. Down+B floats in the air for a bit after use. (similar to Marth's Forward+B)
3. Down+B autofloats opponent in a stun for a second.
4. Slow but high knockback KO moves. About 90-110% should kill.
5. Add 3-4 frames on windup lag for all of Mewtwo's smash moves but knocks them up(sheik's dtilt.)

Kirby
Uh, add knockback on Kirby's moves, make Kirby's tools more useful. I would like to see Kirby's Down+B able to perform different tricks depending on the button you were holding while pressing Down+B. It'll make Kirby have much more depth to it.
Examples:
Down+B+A=You can cancel Down+B and spike your opponent if it hits. This would be great as a combo ender. Of course downfalls would be if the Down+B doensnt hit, Kirby either has a lot of lag at the end or kills itself.
Down+B+L=No windup lag but massive startup lag. Similar to Falcon's dair. Used to bounce people up for comboing.

Bowser
3/4 or 4/5 of his lag should be cut off if L-canceled. Instead of the 1/2, he will benefit from it. Let him have a faster jump so his wavedash isn't so awkward to do . Bowser needs to be Top Tier material so:
1. Lag reduced please.
2. Faster Jump.
3. Longer wavedash
4. Since he gets comboed do easily, might as well make him harder to kill.
5. Reduce startup lag.
6. Give all his aerials a bigger hitbox.

Yoshi
Give Yoshi a:
1. More priorty/bigger hitbox.
2. Eggs should take less time to execute
3. Faster grabs
4. Grabs lead into something

Link
1. Faster/Lighter
2. Link should be able to get different kinds of bombs, similar to Peach but require different button inputs like Down+B+Random Button
3. Up+B less punishable to a certain degree
4. More bomb tricks

Samus
1. SWD more accessible and more leniant on the timing, it allows Samus to have a different type of movement with a varied depth
2. B move less knockback even in full blast.
3. B should serve a more accessible edgeguard.
4. B takes longer to charge
5. Bombjumping should be toned down but can still be used
6. New type of missle

Ice Climbers
1. An infinite(a flashy one)
2. Grab range severely reduced
3. Grab animation has tons of windup lag
4. Slower
5. More knockback on Back Air but less on Dsmash
6. Ice Climbers desynched can perform grab combos up to only 30-40 percent
7. Desycnhed, Ice Climbers have more of a rushdown game

Peach
I actually play Peach but it'd be cool to see her nerfed a bit.
1. Turnips has less knockback
2. Faster to take out turnips
3. Remove Stitchface. . .
4. Dsmash gets a smaller hitbox
5. Damage of Dsmash gets reduced just a tiny bit
6. Floats last longer
7. Toad needs a use
8. Crown Slap is faster but a bit less knockback

Marth
1. Dair stays a spike(pal/ntsc thing)
2. Reverse Up+B more knockback
3. Counter gets a use, faster, less windup lag
4. Aerials has more air lag
5. Double Fair still possible
6. Fsmash should get a bit more lag after it but still kills if tippered

Sheik
1. Weaker needles
2. Aerials have lag
3. Fair's knockback reduces by how many times it is used
4. Up+B has to have way less range and reduce invincibility frames
5. Hopefully there is a way to have Zelda be the combo ender with maybe an insane transformation time
6. Zelda gets more knockback on all attacks but only does 1%
7. Sheiks gets little moves with knockback while them still being fast
8. Chainthrows should be excapable at 30-60%

Falco
1. Shine combos does less damage
2. Less knockback
3. Laggier attacks
4. Recovery needs to stop being crappy
5. Shine gets a smaller hitbox
6. Shl stuns 1 more frame

Fox
1. Lasers do 1% from the start
2. Shdl should be superior to Shl(speedwise)
3. Upsmash kills at a later percentage
4. Drill needs to be harder to L-cancel
5. The shine stuns the opponent less when they are in the air
6. No chainthrows
7. Up+B has lag after it
8. Throws get more ranged
9. DD still the same

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Edit: My dream is for the game to be so bloody balanced there is no teirs. Imagine that. Nintendo hopefully will be able to add patches that will make this come true. Highly doubt it though.

Once again I will point out that unless every character is exactly the same, there will be a tier list. Not only that but counterpicks will still exist. Remember that about melee aswell, counterpicks were a hugggge part of the game, moreso than the tiers even. You could have a fox player that was like omg im so 1337 with fox, but ya right an awesome marth who knows his vs space animals game can come in and totally pwn him with the counterpick.

Same goes for like shiek, shiek thinks shes godly but then the IC's come and mess her up.

 

[Rakuen]

Has anyone ever drew up the giant web of counter-picks?

 

[Red Exodus]

Phanna has, to some degree. It's kinda old now though so it probably won't be accurate.

 

[skellitorman]

I think that for kirby they should make all his B moves back to how it was in kirby 64. Fix the UpB hitboxes. Fix the B hitboxes like how it was in ssb64 but make it so that you cant move so you dont suicide with it. Fix the ridiculous lag on DownB and make the knockback stronger. Fix the hitboxes on forwardB. Make his grabs not able to get out of, but also take away that you could commit suicide with it. And maybe fix his neutral air's speed, or the down aerial, or maybe fix the ridiculous dash attack.. His other moves are good though