The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[greenblob]

Forcing Sheik to transform to Zelda for KOs won't work since KO moves usually have to be comboed into. However, limiting Sheik's edgeguard options and giving Zelda a better edgeguard would work. But I'm not counting on Sheik making a return.

In terms of speed vs. power, I think Smash focuses more on power than most fighters. First, you need to knock the opponent off the stage to KO instead of just adding damage. Second, edgeguarding brings out power attacks more. And still, we see speed having a huge advantage over power. Something should be done about that.

 

[Fawriel]

You can't balance smash.

That's the easy way out. As everyone said, nobody has the pipe dream of a perfectly balanced game, and the creators can't predict what sort of shenanigans we'll be pulling with that poor little game engine.
But does it really change THAT much? Wavedashing was discovered, but Luigi still isn't top tier. It was discovered that Fox can jump-cancel his shine and now everyone either loves him or hates him because he's potentially faster in combos than was probably intended.
But in the end, most of it comes down to the initial strengths and weaknesses of the characters, except that there's nothing to counter speed with.
Change that, and the game is already more balanced.

 

[BigRick]

But in the end, most of it comes down to the initial strengths and weaknesses of the characters, except that there's nothing to counter speed with.

I agree that speed is currently the best attribute that a character can have in Melee. In the other 2D fighting games, speed is usually less of a factor because battles take place in restricted environments. However, in smash you have much more room to move around in... this eventually led to the banning of many stages in tournament play.

However, speed is not unbeatable... but how do you balance speedy characters? One, it is important for the slow guy to be able to land a hit on the fast guy (unfornately, there's some chars in Melee that can't land a hit on a well played Fox). Two, you give the slower guy some ways to reduce the movement of the fast guy (like projectiles or good range).

Three, another type of char that you see in the typical 2d fighter is the grappler. Their main characteristic is that they're usually slow, but when they're close to you, you're supposed to be screwed. So it's sure that the fast guy has an advantage here, because he wins if he doesn't get caught... but the tables should turn as soon as the grappler gets in range.

^^That's why I said once that Bowser was poor design... for his speed, the dude should be able to break shields, have more priority on his shell based attacks, and simply **** his opponent if he's foolish enough to stay close to him.

 

[SilintNinjya]

i just think they should give the bigger, slower, stronger guys, should get a LOT more weight. make size a real issue. sure, fox can zip around bowser, and deal tons of damage, but make bowser nigh unclearable for a fox until he is maybe even up to 150 or 170.

in general, i think fox should be lighter, and his up smash and uair should be weaker. i think the shine is frustrating, but i dont want to see it change really.

also, something that ive never talked about online was the idea of a pentagon based priority. it would function similar to rock paper scissors. 1>2>3>4>5>1 same slot attacks clang and push both players away 50%. there is some more details into how it would work if say a 1 and 3 hit...but the whole idea would be to make the game less "my marth has higher priority over all of your attacks" and instead make it "my move counters your move." i think it would add more depth and strategy to the game. obviously, this system alone wouldnt be perfect and you would have to add in exceptions. sex kicks always hit, etc etc. this would be just a base of how it would work out.

o, and something me and my friends think they should do to marth....just remove the tip, and maybe the second section of strength in his sword, and he would be fine. that would make him still strong, but not destory him. he just wouldnt be able to clear at 40% anymore.

over all, i agree with something someone already said (dont remember who, sorry)...but they shouldnt completely spay stronger characters, but just bring some of the lower tier characters up to par.

 

[Scar]

lol Everyone who is horrified by Cap'n Falcon is clearly terrible with all of the high-teir characters. Any one of the 5 should trash Falcon if they have any idea what they're doing, and if the knee was nerfed he would be an awful character.

Somewhat like J-Puff, you have to kill Falcon before he kills you. Also, the knee does what, 15-18%? You really want to make his moves weaker? He's pretty bad at racking up damage already, IMO.

*johnsjohnsjohnsjohns*

 

[Fawriel]

@Scar: The knee is more or less the only broken part ( at higher level play anyway... I assume you replied to the original post, though ). 15-18% is actually a whole lot. And the evil part about it is not the damage, but the knockback. I've never played any good player with high-tier characters or Falcon... ( actually, I've never played a good player period ), but from what I see in combo videos, that knockback is just exaggerated. Take away the knee and replace it with something humanely powerful like Ganondorf's fair ( sounds fair, doesn't it? ) and the guy still has the ability to run around and play volleyball with his uair and whatever it is that he does.


But yay, finally some nice ideas are brought up. Awesome. ^^

@Ninjya: The priority system is interesting, but I don't know whether there could be any way to make clear what attack is what type and has an advantage over what other attack.. *scratches head*

@BigRick, I agree completely.
I think in the thread I linked to, something like this was mentioned... maybe Bowser should have reduced knockback, so something with practically no knockback like Fox's dair would not even make him flinch, making him able to retaliate even while being attacked... and generally make him able to escape from combos.
I love it!

 

[DarkKnight077]

Just buff Ness and Kirby and Ganny. Ganny is much to slow and he has too much power. He needs different moves.

Ness needs to be a bit better.

Kirby needs a total makeover though he sucked.

Marth needs to be somewhat nerfed..he aint broken. Fix his range.

 

[El HP]

I agree Bowser needs high stamina so a fast character will need to use a hit and run strategy and not just go offensive on poor Bowser also give Bowser killer throws with long grab reach like marth all heavy characters should have the longest grab reach since they're normally bigger size, longer reach in his attacks like Ganon and DK these two are solid characters I don't know why they didn't the same with Bowser kind of sad.

 

[Red Exodus]

What's the problem with the knee? It's not Marth's or Shiek's fair, he can't spam it and get easy kills, you have to learn how to sweet spot it and deal with the lag when you miss [you opponent is normally on your *** if you miss]. Plus the knee is to make up for all of Falcon's ****ty specials.

Like I said before, all of them suck, his recovery sucks, the dude needs something to replace his sucky specials and recovery.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

What's the problem with the knee? It's not Marth's or Shiek's fair, he can't spam it and get easy kills, you have to learn how to sweet spot it and deal with the lag when you miss [you opponent is normally on your *** if you miss]. Plus the knee is to make up for all of Falcon's ****ty specials.

Like I said before, all of them suck, his recovery sucks, the dude needs something to replace his sucky specials and recovery.

Boo Hoo Falcons Knee

Captain Falcon is the coolest character in the game. Period.

Also, what red says is true. Falcon is meant to be played fast, and powerful but SO EASY TO EDGEGUARD. No recovery, sinks like a stone in melee. Edgeguarding falco or falcon is like edgeguarding a telethon boy, to quote something I heard in the melee section 5 months ago.

Captain Falcon for top tier.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No boy you got that wrong! DK is clearly the sexiest and coolest character in the game! Who else is completely naked but still wears a tie? DK is a musculair sex beast!

...

Okay now seriously.

I find it funny how everybody is discussing Sheik before we even know if she's returning since I honestly doubt she would. Best way to buff Zelda and nerf Sheik is remove Sheik and give Zelda a complete new moveset, or atleast revamp it. Light Arrows and TP rapier ftw!

And about DK again, he is pretty much fine but needs less ****ing LAG, a little more speed a little more vertical recovery, and PLEASE a little small hitbox and bigger god **** shield! Bah, biggest character but smallest shield... Bad for a character who relies alot on his grabs. Also a little more priority would be nice.

 

[Banks]

well its widely speculated that z-samus will be a new sheik, hopefully you can transform at will during a match, but i think they said something about not being able to and it happening at a certain percent or something. perhaps you could hold down a as a sort of semi cheat just like haxor sheik players do now.

 

[Sensai]

So if Falcon's intent was to be played quickly and powerfully but easily edgegaurded...then what does this tell us about Ganon? That's he supposed to be played quickly and powerfully?

I think they screwed almost the perfect balance between speed and power, a truly balanced 'heavier' character, by giving him an entirely ****ty recovery. As DarkKnight077 excellently, and inadvertently, points out, Ganon is slow and powerful, but it seems to work for him.

 

[Banks]

ganons up b should be like yoshis and hed be fixed. INVINCIBLE

 

[Sensai]

Now that's a little absurd...haha.

His Down-B makes it so that he can recover pretty much from anywhere so long as the player DIs up, but his actual Up-B makes it **** near impossible to get back on the stage, especially against much quicker characters, like Sheik and Fox (Shine spike...please, make it stop).

Making it faster, or somehow less predictable would be more then enough, IMO. Not to the point of complete awesome (Mewtwo), but somewhere past utter crud (Falcon/Ganon). Even at a Falco level would be fine...

 

[Banks]

i still say invincible...TOO GOOD

but it is pretty fun to shine spike ganon

 

[SilintNinjya]

i think that if you removed jump cancel from the shine, it would nerf it a lot, but not to the point of no return. it would slow them down a lot, but they would still be strong.

also, still nerf foxes up kills.

 

[Banks]

all they gotta do is make it so the shine knocks down every character so you cant infinite across levels on some people. i dont think they should do that though, because i like fox v_v

 

[MetaKnight0]

-slightly longer stun times
-no more grabbing out of hitstun (probably give some grab immunity after hitstun too, force some thinking into grabs)
-powershielding opportunity increased by 1-2 frames
-improve air-dodges
-overall increase in endurance (decrease knockback-percent ratios so most characters can survive 20% longer)

Fox:
-JC for shine on later recovery frame (IIRC it's like 5 frame right now, change it to 9 frames or something like that), make shine activate on frame 2 rather than 1, shine knocks down.
-Slow down Up Smash
-Up Air larger initlal knockback, less increase as damage increases
-Change his forward air to something better, preferably better range

Falco:
-Increase landing time during air laser (he basically goes straight into normal landing animation, force a 5 frame period when he cannot move or something like that)
-Down Air meteor-cancellable, same as PAL
-Shine slowed down, shine on frame 3, JC after recovery frame 14
-Change his forward to something better, preferably better range, good knockback
-Better Back Throw, something like Fox's back throw
-Increase time before he can fastfall on a short-hop

Marth:
-Make the tip weaker, so Roy might actually be stronger
-Grab throws further out initlally, make it do like 8%.
-Forward Air landing recovery slower
-Basic DI on Down Tilt higher
-PAL Down Air
-Weight class PAL level

Sheik:
-Basic DI on Forward Air higher, so it makes 30 degree angle with ground (normally this is what you see when people Smash DI up)
-Up Air like Samus v1.2, decrease landing lag
-Down Smash activate slower
-Forward, Up Throws do more damage, send them back further, Up Throw recovers faster.

Peach:
-Down Smash only 3 hits, slightly lower knockback, 8% per hit uncharged
-Floating Aerial treated as normal air attack (i.e. no FC rejoice Peach players = <)
-Back Air starts recovery earlier
-Better fricking Forward Tilt please
-Toad activates earlier
-Peach bomber actually hits shield

Falcon:
-Knee's basic DI higher (not to Sheik's extent but something like that), knockback lower
-Falcon's actually pretty nice for a tier one character, nothing really stupid other than DD camping.

Maybe I'll post other characters. Also I can defend my statements

 

[SilintNinjya]

how to make mewtwo NOT suck

make his smashes not take a thousand years to hit
make his confusion hit faster
make his confusion stun them till they hit the ground (as it is, they can recover and hit you before you even finish the move. (better yet, make confusion push people away at a set distance, regaurdless of %)
make his confusion "take" projectiles so they can hurt the shooter
a better (NEW) down B (the stun move)
heavier

ya, i want mewtwo to actually be good. he gets so many style points for how he moves and crap....but they made him slow in movement, slow in attacks, AND weak...like thats balanced with foxes fast, fast, and strong.

 

[Banks]

mewtwo should be more powerful than everyone being such a high powered pokemon. but unfortunately in this game pichu pwns him.

 

[Red Exodus]

Mewtwo's down B is cool but it takes too long for the second one to come out, the knockback is good, the damage is low but it's just too laggy. They should either speed it up or replace it with something worthwhile.

 

[SilintNinjya]

him, ganon, and bowser should be the 3 strongest.

and i said it earlier, i wish that the small characters were even lighter, and the big characters were heavier.

so sure, fox could combo bowser to say, 120%, but bowser would only need to hit fox a few times for the kill. he will hit less often, but he only needs to slip a few in there.

thats kinda how i play ganon...i dodge and hide untill the other person slips up, and then i hit them like 3 times in a combo and ive got them off the stage with like 70% delt and im edge guarding them.

and the problem with his down b is the fact that the enemy has to be so close (with in jab range), facing you, AND your eyes have to be about the same height!!!...and then it doesnt even stun for very long!!

 

[Fawriel]

Gotta be careful with making some characters *too* physically strong for players at lower skill levels...

 

[SilintNinjya]

this is true...but right now, speed is all that matters.

 

[MetaKnight0]

this is true...but right now, speed is all that matters.

It really isn't the only thing that matters.

 

[Fawriel]

Range also does, more or less closely followed by strength.

The rest is somewhere down the road.

 

[Sensai]

I wouldn't say that speed is the ONLY important thing, but it's definitely the most important aspect of characters in higher level play.

 

[Cisne]

metaknight thats not balancing , thats top/high tier supa nerf. u want them to become new kirbys

 

[Rakuen]

metaknight thats not balancing , thats top/high tier supa nerf.

If he doesn't get that wicked throw from Kirby's Super Star, he won't be an artificial nerf to the higher tiers.

 

[rm88]

Kirby:
Kirby doesn't need to be SSB64-ish again, but I'd really appreciate a decent Fsmash, Usmash, and more importantly Fair (too bad his Fair is exactly the same in the trailer). He is slow, weak and easy to send flying, so a slightly faster roll would not hurt. Also, his Forward B needs to be more effective. I'm excited to see how Kirby will play, maybe this time he'll be a more competitive character.

Peach:
As a Peach main, I'd not like to see her nerfed at all, but if they are going to do it, they should modify her Dsmash. As for improvements, they should change her Utilt and Ftilt, make Toad slightly more effective, and remove/modify the Peach Bomber.

Samus:
I don't think she was supposed to have that great bomb-based recovery or Super Wavedash. Now that she'll include a speedy character in the form of ZSSamus, some changes to the armored Samus would not hurt.

Fox:
He stole Kirby's SSB64 Fsmash and Usmash, we (Kirby users) want them back!... Well, at least they could make those moves a little less effective.

Sheik:
Some lag in her moves and a nerfed Dthrow would be enough. If she comes back.

Zelda:
I don't like the idea of the new rapier and light arrows based moveset, that would be somewhat Link-ish. If they keep her actual moveset, she needs a better Dtilt, and a some powerful moves, not just her Fair/Bair.

Bowser:
Add power and endurance. That's it.

 

[KevinM]

I would be fine with character movesets just remove some of the ridiculous lag of of my bowser's moves please.. Come on my u-air takes a half a second (little less i think its 21 frames) to come out... SHOOT ME

 

[Banks]

if bowser was really fast itd be kinda weird, a big *** koopa moving like lightning. he HAS to be slow

 

[Fawriel]

Fox:
He stole Kirby's SSB64 Fsmash and Usmash, we (Kirby users) want them back!... Well, at least they could make those moves a little less effective.

FSmash? I think you might be confusing someone...

Sheik:
Some lag in her moves and a nerfed Dthrow would be enough. If she comes back.

Hey, she has like 1 move with lag! Isn't that enough for you kids these days?
Heh.


And yeah, they already made Bowser more or less as fast as he could possibly be. Imagine his dash if someone hadn't had the idea of him throwing himself on the floor and sliding ( I THINK that's what he does... ).
The kid jumps as high as Mario!

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Is it just me or should we be talking less about the old characters, and more about metaknight?

Metaknight... looks like he is SO going to have a high tier spot, top maybe who knows.

He flies. He has a sword. Think of the edgeguarding. Think about it. Jigglypuff with a sword O.o

 

[Banks]

all he needs is a rest and he'd be jiggly with a sword..and armor.

 

[Speedsk8er]

The guy who made this thread suggested the lamest things, he's either a noob or unsatisfied with his small *****, one of the two. In anycase hes a frustrated individual..

Nerf fox's shine.. get real.



Do something about SHL. Do what about it? screw you.

You mention my **** size but you main both Falco AND Sheik? HAHAA! Sup, irony?


Metaknight DOES look like he might be the Sheik of Brawl. Hopefully, I'm wrong and he actually has some sort of learning-curve.

 

[SilintNinjya]

metaknight will likely be one of the first people i try.

i just wish they would release a list of who the game will come with unlocked so i can go ahead and pick!!!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You mention my **** size but you main both Falco AND Sheik? HAHAA! Sup, irony?.

'S more like, "'Sup. I'm a scrub.'"

I'm not as...vehement...as Dylan is, but that was just one of the dumbest things you could have ever said on here. So what if Dylan mains Sheik and Falco? From what I've seen, it's a ***** to utilize Falco properly---he is not an easy character to master. You think Shiz and Bombsoldier were able to pull off those shine combos in one sitting? Hell, no. It takes blistering speed and preternatural fluidity to master that sort of thing. Sheik is a broken character---I'll be the first to admit it, because she's my main. But is she like, say, Justice from Guilty Gear X2? No (God, no). She has her weaknesses; one of the primary ones is a predictable metagame that's easily punishable. I've never seen an innovative Sheik---that's because it is hard to stray away from her general strengths (i.e. setting everyone with a tilt combo only to F-air them). At higher level play, it just isn't that easy to beat the people that know what the hell they're doing 'cause they see it coming 99% of the time.

Just because somebody mains a high-tier character does not automatically make them lesser players, man; taking a low-tier character as your main doesn't make you any greater, either. I can't really say that Dylan reacted well, but...it's Dylan. That's how he is. He said his piece; just let it slide. Believe it or not, he is reasonable.

I pretty much agree with Sensai about the whole nerfing/buffing thing. The key to this is balance: In order to have advantage A, you gotta have detriment B.

And Metaknight? Being the Sheik of Brawl? Nah. I think we're gonna see a throwback to Kirby in his Smash 64 days: Nearly impossible to kill with a healthy dollop of awesome attacks that rock everybody's world.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Red Exodus]

People like that annoy me. "Look a high/top tier main, he just wants the easy way out". I already made a long post about this, but if someone that plays a character like Mario well and moves to Fox for the very first time they'll SD a lot.

Firefox into the stage near the edge causes you to bounce which is an SD, Fox illusion off the stage is an SD [unless you are trying to get back] a fair and dair of the stage is an SD. The only way people find these out is through experience, you can't just pick up a character and own no matter what tier the character is.