The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[Fawriel]

Yes. So?

Oh yeah, I forgot to say it last time. GenocideMachine, that post was awesome. I really appreciate it.

 

[Creo]

It was good but too long...(at least it made sense...)

 

[Sensai]

GenocideMachine, that's an excellent post. Thank you for the insight.

To answer your question, Ganon got the BEST tilt in the game (his Utilt [no sarcasm at all...oh wait, there's some]) and (seriously) a lot of power. He can pretty much kill a Falco at 50% or so...

 

[Creo]

Yes...If he can hit it at that damage...pretty much anyone is done...

 

[Speedsk8er]

I'd acually like it if they made Ylinks Fire Spike an actual spike instead of Meteor. That and expand the hitbox a little. Other than that, I agree with the whole post.

 

[Red Exodus]

That tilt has a weird hitbox, I think it hits behind you as well. I still stand by my way of improving Bowser by removing the ability to combo him at low percentages by reducing the knockback of moves done to him until around 70%-100%. Moves with quick start up time but lag at the end would solve the problem of not being able to hit your opponent, especially when they move quickly.

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Marth simply doesn't need to be fixed... He's great how he is...

With exorbitantly significant advantages over the vast, vast majority of other characters? Not really. I mean, its great to think we can just scale up all of the characters to his level and all, but there comes a point when you simply have to realize that you can't bring everyone to the top. Someone has to come down every time.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I realize this thread has been raging for weeks and I have read only the first page but nonetheless I add my mighty opinion--

I would much rather see the terrible characters improved than the good characters nerfed.

The only moves that require nerfing are those that have too much reward for too little skill.

Examples--

• Sheik's dthrow/fair--fair should come out slightly slower or have less knockback or change the trajectory. dthrow should not be able to chainthrow 60% of the characters.
• Marth's fsmash/grab range--The hilt hits farther than the rest of the sword, except for the tip. BROKEN. It should be very good at the tip, bad elsewhere, not very good at the tip, good everywhere. Grab range is just ********.
• Fox's usmash/uair--introduce more lag, decrease knockback, or make them come out slightly slower.
• Falco's dair - only a "sweetspot" should spike imo, to make it more like Marth's.
• Peach

Everything else is fine. Fox is ridiculously good but most of his ridiculously good tactics take a lot of skill. Same with Falco. JC shine is fine. Waveshine is fine. SHL is fine.

Buffs--

Way too many to possibly list. Basically, just turn the useless moves into useful moves. Half the moves in this game are virtually useless. Falcon's B, downB, upB, Ganon's utilt, B, Fox's overB, Marth's jab, etc.

 

[Creo]

...Or we can just wait and see what Nintendo does because are opinions for this will definitely not change anything a bit...

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Precedent says that people will be nerfed, k, thx. And by precedent, I mean every fighting game ever.

 

[Aminar]

I get the feeling Marth's grab range was the resultof some form of equation or another that bases itself off his sword, and will be fixed in brawl. Otherwise Marth is actually fairly balanced.

Chain throws should all go the way of the Dodo as well.

 

[MetaKnight0]

I am amused by those who say Shine is okay.

Shine is a one frame move. Shine is cancellable by something like the sixth frame after activation. Shine creates a ridiculously overpowered rushdown for Fox and Falco. Fox essentially gets a low risk/high reward off of any single hitconfirmed shine. When I say reward, I mean 80% kills or 40% damage combos. Falco gets pillars, an even safer rushdown, and a still totally gay risk/reward.

SHL is not okay because Falco gets to lock down so many characters for free. All people get to beat it is p-shield, but Falco honestly doesn't give a crap because he still has them where he wants them.

And skill shouldn't have a strong determining factor in nerfing characters. Fox is tough to play but he gets tons of low risk/high rewards, amazing punishing, beast rushdown, excellent kill potential, great recovery, and amazing dodge potential. He's overbalanced and it really doesn't matter that Fox needs like 10 inputs or more per second to be effective, because people will get that good and you can't stop that.

 

[Fawriel]

Well, skill should have SOME effect, but, well, not as much. Fox isn't even the hardest character to use, I think, that's probably Yoshi or Ness. And mastering those doesn't even pay out except that you get praised for owning with low-tiers sometimes.
Marth is so overpowered because he has the smaller sweetspot. Roy was *designed* to be stronger, I think. Apparently, the designers didn't expect people to become so **** good so quickly that Marth's "disadvantage" of a small sweetspot won't matter IN THE LEAST. In fact, it makes him even stronger.
And once you have trained enough with Fox to get those infinites into your muscle memory, how much does it take to stop you? Against certain characters, you might just as well gain a button that instantly wins you the match.

 

[Red Exodus]

I think people had to work for the ability to play well, and if they had to train for hours just trying to learn waveshining, pillaring, and SHL well they deserve to own with. Characters only seem overpowered when people find out something about them that they can exploit. If more people were to go look for exploits for other characters [like wobbling for ICs] then this discussion wouldn't be about the overpowered nature of 6 characters that people had to research.

 

[DeeDoubleU]

I get the feeling Marth's grab range was the resultof some form of equation or another that bases itself off his sword, and will be fixed in brawl. Otherwise Marth is actually fairly balanced.

Chain throws should all go the way of the Dodo as well.

... an equation? Dude, its just a hit box. There isn't any math involved, its all stored with the animation.

Marth's animations in general are kinda screwed up though. He has these extremely over-advantageous short lunging motions which result in extreme range extension while minimalizing the period of vulnerability due to placement. Roy has it too, but the added time delays to the animation (particularly the ones after the attack is over... he actually stays in the vulnerable position longer after the attack is complete) make it far less useful.

I think people had to work for the ability to play well, and if they had to train for hours just trying to learn waveshining, pillaring, and SHL well they deserve to own with. Characters only seem overpowered when people find out something about them that they can exploit. If more people were to go look for exploits for other characters [like wobbling for ICs] then this discussion wouldn't be about the overpowered nature of 6 characters that people had to research.

So you are saying that because people did the work to find exploits that they shouldn't remove them...

Doesn't that go completely against the entire concept of debugging in general?

 

[StarshipGroove]

I think people had to work for the ability to play well, and if they had to train for hours just trying to learn waveshining, pillaring, and SHL well they deserve to own with. Characters only seem overpowered when people find out something about them that they can exploit. If more people were to go look for exploits for other characters [like wobbling for ICs] then this discussion wouldn't be about the overpowered nature of 6 characters that people had to research.

That would be good enough. The problem is that the best characters are not better just because of exploits, but also for their stats.

Fox is far faster than Bowser in every way, Items included: why not make Bowser FAR stronger than Fox in every way, both for damage dealt and knockback? (for example Bowser's ftilt could deal 18% vs a measly 7% by Fox)

However we also don't want free for all to become unbalanced either: if Bowser was so heavy and strong he could simply steal everyone's kills without worrying about being even thrown.

They could also upgrade the low tier characters so that the exploits of the top tiers don't work anymore on them. Ness with one frame PSI magnet+almost no lag time+JC= SHL becomes obsolete.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth is so overpowered because he has the smaller sweetspot. Apparently, the designers didn't expect people to become so **** good so quickly that Marth's "disadvantage" of a small sweetspot won't matter IN THE LEAST. In fact, it makes him even stronger.

First of all, having a smaller sweetespot is always a disadvantage no matter how you look at it. It forces you to have perfect spacing in order to even be the least bit effective. If you miss the tip of a fair then the entire combo breaks down. I'm suprised so many people don't know how hard that kind of spacing is to maintain. Sometimes you may even have to decide whether or not you want to sweet spot depending on their weight, percent, floatyness, and recovery time in comparison to your move's stun, knockback, and trajectory with and without DI. It's not often that an opponent hits Marth out of a combo, but it is common that Marth screws up his spacing.

I admit that Marth's grab range is larger than it really needs to be. I've also noticed that Marth doesn't grab opponents that are right next to him and that his F-Smash, D-tilt, and F-tilt don't hit someone right in front of him either. That's just kinda weird.

Marth is only fast enough to continue combos. What covers him and allows him to avoid shield grabs is spacing, not speed.

Marth's animations in general are kinda screwed up though. He has these extremely over-advantageous short lunging motions which result in extreme range extension while minimalizing the period of vulnerability due to placement. Roy has it too, but the added time delays to the animation (particularly the ones after the attack is over... he actually stays in the vulnerable position longer after the attack is complete) make it far less useful.

Have you ever notice that Marth lunges foward in his F-Smash and people can hit him out of it with a simple F-tilt? It's really not that hard to get inside of Marth's range and once you do closer than his sweetspot range his moves become much less effective. The entire strategy of his play turns to pushing you away as fast as possible because he can't do anything while your that close. That's when his grab comes in handy (although if they shorten it I wouldn't mind because it was really meant to be used as a defensive tactic), because it lets him switch from defense to offense by pushing you right into a comfortable range for him.

Marth is also very easy to combo due to his weight and easy to knock off the stage too. Edgeguarding him is rather simple too. Wavedash onto the ledge, get up as he up Bs, and then hit him in the lag after his up B. That light shield edgehog thing that fast fallers (and C.Falcon) do is a really easy.


Marth is a relatively balanced character and is very hard to be good with at high levels of play due to the many factors of his play. Every match up he has is played differently because his gameplay relies heavily on his opponent's attributes and even on thier play styles.

 

[DeeDoubleU]

The problems with f-tilting Marth out of his smash come with players who know the sweet spot like the back of their hand -_-

 

[MetaKnight0]

Skill really does not matter in the least. If Marth has a distinct advantage with using his sweetspot and it is very small, people are going to get good with it. If Fox takes 10 inputs a second to get good, people are going to get good with it. If there is something, people are going to get good with it. Is it hard? Sure no one contests that. Does it create a huge gap between characters with exploits and characters without? In this game, yes, it does. Sheik dominates nearly every single low tier character. Marth dominates nearly every single low tier character as well. Mewtwo doesn't have a single good matchup.

It's a new game. If you want to keep playing SSBM + crawling + Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth/Peach and more broken characters + no new changes than you can stop wishing. It's going to be a new game, there's going to be an entire rebalancing of the cast, and your 5 years worth of mastering Fox's infinites won't mean crap in Brawl as it should.

 

[Red Exodus]

So if I put Chu playing as Pichu vs some kid that bought the game last week the kid would win since skill doesn't matter?

I've seen Taj, a Mewtwo player, own Forward, a Falco player, and you're teling me that skill doesn't matter? I think you need to examine your points. I guess I'll have to show you some evidence in case want solid evidence. Wait while I get Taj and Forward vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd1FFTsecW4 A Taj combo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuuQCqvp_0s&mode=related&search= Taj vs Forward

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLiRBAKWEeU&mode=related&search= T vs F

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txM4ENohbmo&mode=related&search= T vs F

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpycJPjzApY&mode=related&search= A forward combo vid, just to show you Forward is actually skilled and not some noob that had a rough time with Taj.

 

[Creo]

Please do... I always love to watch a (considered) low tier Mewtwo beat up a high tier Falco.

 

[Red Exodus]

I just posted 5 vids, a combo of Taj, a combo vid of Forward, and 3 matches between them. I added the videos in my older post.

 

[Creo]

Ok I'm definitely going to watch them.

 

[Red Exodus]

The first part of Forwards combo vid is ugly because of the darkness of the stage and the quality of youtube and the technique used to capture it, but after like 2 minutes it gets watchable and enjoyable to watch, all of Taj's vids are done more professionally.

 

[HideousBeing]

Skill really does not matter in the least. If Marth has a distinct advantage with using his sweetspot and it is very small, people are going to get good with it. If Fox takes 10 inputs a second to get good, people are going to get good with it. If there is something, people are going to get good with it. Is it hard? Sure no one contests that. Does it create a huge gap between characters with exploits and characters without? In this game, yes, it does. Sheik dominates nearly every single low tier character. Marth dominates nearly every single low tier character as well. Mewtwo doesn't have a single good matchup.

It's a new game. If you want to keep playing SSBM + crawling + Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth/Peach and more broken characters + no new changes than you can stop wishing. It's going to be a new game, there's going to be an entire rebalancing of the cast, and your 5 years worth of mastering Fox's infinites won't mean crap in Brawl as it should.

So the idea is to avoid exposing yourself to the dangerous situations such as pillaring. A good Link player, for example, will avoid being grabbed by Sheik at low percents, because he is aware of the effectiveness of chainthrowing by Sheik against Link. Low tier characters are not so bad if you can avoid being comboed.

 

[Creo]

(finished watching them)
Of course Taj's are perfect because he has a perfect Mewtwo.
Forwards isn't because Falco aint unique like Mewtwo.
But nevertheless, they are all great videos.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Zelda also has a distinct advantage with using her sweetspot, but she's overshadowed by Shiek. My friend actually plays Zelda very well and I have a lot of trouble fighting him because I'm used to fighting Shiek. Zelda's fair reaches just as far as Marth's, but it comes out faster and does 20% damage. It's like Marth's foward smash in mid air. AND it can even be SHFFL'd. Zelda "exploits" this "advantage" by smacking Marth in the face as soon as he tries to fair her.


Did I mention that Marth is really easy to combo? (well, maybe not with Zelda) It's true that he can pull of some great combos, but many characters can do the same to him. Let's use Link as a nice low tier example. Link's medium weight and fall speed make him a character that is easy to combo with Marth's tipped fairs. Marth's up throw also sets Link up for up-tilt chaining. However, Link's Down throw sets Marth up for Link's up tilt chaining and Uairs. At high percents a down throw from Link can be used to set up for an easy up B. Marth can easily edgeguard Link's recovery with D-tilt to stop his up B and ledgehop Bairs to stop his chain recovery. But once again, Link can edgeguard Marth just as well with as falling Nair off the stage.

Just a nice little example of an even matchup between Marth and a Low tier character. In fact there are quite a few Marths that have trouble fighting Link because they're not used to fighting low tiers. So they go with the default "Space a SHFFL'd Fair" and get sheild grabbed as they try to follow it up because they're not used to Link's grab range. Then they get combo'd to oblivion out of a D-throw. So much for Marth's "advantage" huh.

 

[Sensai]

Just to add to this (pretty stupid) skill doesn't matter debate, I'd love to point to Aniki's old videos of his Link. I'm not going to post any, but a simple YouTube search for Aniki will garner quite a few results.

And Taj is a God.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Sonic Wave, stop making it seem like Marth sucks. So what he falls into some of Link's combos? He still has a big advantage over most of the cast. Does that mean that space animals suck against DK because they fall into his cargo uthrow, uair, uair, uair, giant punch combos? Hell no. They still have huge advantages. We're not saying that Marth should turned to ****. jeez...

 

[Fawriel]

Besides... as Sonic Wave said, the problem some high-tier players have with low-tiers is that they don't know how to fight them well. As soon as that advantage is gone, bam.
Also, one thing I hate the most about the imbalance is that the low-tiers always HAVE to try to avoid the approaches of their high-tier foes, as you said. I already notice that even in my n00b-level games. I play Ness, my opponent is Sheik. Practically the only thing I can do most of the time is shield and try to get a shield-grab, and sometimes short-hop a Fair or hit with the tip of the baseball bat. Anything else leaves me open and immediately results in a dash attack, f-tilt, fair, fsmash, d-tilt, etc.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Bahh. Even if one pro learned an unescapable, infinite Pichu combo on every character, ending with a kill and easy to set up, Pichu would still have the worst stats in the game and should still be considered a bad character.
This doesn't seem a given in competitive play. Even with his superior stats, Marth was only considered average until Ken came along.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic Wave, stop making it seem like Marth sucks. So what he falls into some of Link's combos? He still has a big advantage over most of the cast. Does that mean that space animals suck against DK because they fall into his cargo uthrow, uair, uair, uair, giant punch combos? Hell no. They still have huge advantages. We're not saying that Marth should turned to ****. jeez...

I don't consider a 6 or 7 to be a big advantage, which is what Marth has for most of his lower tiered matchups. I was mearly pointing out one common example of Marth vs. a Low tier character and pointing out his short comings. IMO those short comings are why his matches are even debatable. As the skill of both players increase, the advantage the Marth has over his opponent decreases. It's similar to the Shiek vs. Marth matchup. At higher levels of play, shiek's advantage becomes so small that many people say that the match is dead even. Not bad considering she had a 7 on him at the begining and was considered a Marth counter.
Likewise, Marth lost his advantage over Link as his shortcomings became more clear. I'm not saying that Marth is a bad character, I'm saying that a few tweaks could bring other characters to his level instead of bringing him down to theirs. Marth isn't broken so he doesn't need much fixing. Make his grab range more believable (instead of jetting out past his hand) and he should be fine.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Point 1: I know who Taj and Forward are. They both play in the same region (AZ), they play on the same team, and play each other consistantly, they beat KaI, forward was on PR etc. etc.. People who play against each other are going to be more even against each other, because it's how conditioning works. Also, those are CASUAL matches, which mean they're both not pressured, both are working newer and mostly unexamined things (Taj is experimenting with Shield Disable in those vids, forward is using forward tilt to poke), both are having shenanigan fun.

Point 2: It's really, really, really annoying when people KEEP bringing Taj up in their arguments. We already know that Taj is amazing with Mewtwo now start bringing some diversity into your arguments. One player DOES NOT a good character make, especially this late into the game's life. Don't bring up Chu Dat because he showed that ICs had strong, consistant play which has been shown by other players, and don't bring up Bum until vids of him come up and you know what his victories were like.

Point 3: Maybe I was not clear enough with my skill statement. Skill shouldn't matter, because we aren't assuming that some kid is fighting whatever pro. We're assuming the gap is close enough so that they can compete on the same level. Remember what the tier list is aimed at: aka not kids who play this game for a month, unlock trophies 'n ****, and then go play some other game.
Getting rid of skill leaves who they're playing with, on what stage, and any luck factors. Since most matches are on neutral stages, place a lower emphasis on that, and ditto with luck because tournaments are controlled. Now we have characters. Mewtwo is kind of given the short *** stick and Marth gets a sword.

Oh and it's not easy to 'avoid' the bad situations like Falco's pillar (which isn't even that bad compared to Marth's flatland combos and Falcon's anything into knee and Fox's kill buttons) Low tiers aren't bad if you can avoid being comboed? What? No one is bad if you can avoid being anything! Doesn't change a thing, top tiers are better if they can avoid being comboed.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Falco's pillar is much worse the Marth's flatland combos. Marth's fairs can be easily escaped if you DI into the Marth instead of away and just take another non sweetspotted fair. When you get hit by that non-sweetspoted fair then you can DI away to far for Marth to reach you. Marth has range. That's the entire point of him having his sword. He's meant to be portrayed as a nimble and agile swordsman and he fits that role quite nicely. Link isn't exactly what I have in mind for a swordmaster. Any good swordsman would use the full length of his sword to keep his opponent from getting in range.

If Mewtwo had say, Bowser's, weight and still had his floatiness then he'd be much better then he is now. He could also use a lot more power behind his attacks. Either that or faster aerials that would allow him to combo more easily.