The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[IsmashedYOURmom]

You guys whine so much about sheik it drives me insane. Instead of complaining about a certain character, why not get good at a character's, sort of speak, polar opposite?

For instance, Roy tends to annihlate Sheik. Why? Because Roy has the speed, maybe more lag, and has ten times the power of sheik.

Get good at somethin that you believe is the best way to take down sheik, otherwise shut ya trap. Honestly, it's annoying.

 

[Inevitable]

Roy does good on Shiek?

I've never heard such a thing, then again I'm new so my apologies if I missed that bit of information, last time I checked it was ICs who had a slight advantage on Shiek.

 

[10th-Karma]

To all those people saying to nerf falcon's knee....

IT'S SO FUN!!!!!! Maybe reduce his combo ability so that u can't get it so easily.

For beginners it takes really good timing to get the knee down. The thing is that you can get out of it unless a good falcon (i've played marth1) gets that uair combo in the air. It also takes a **** long time to execute it.

I consider Falcon's knee more of a skill using it right with mindgames rather than an unfair strength of falcon's.

Some of the things I would really like to see nerfed though are: knockback on fox's shine, infinites, sheik fair, chaingrabbing.

 

[BigRick]

You sound like an employee at Blizzard.

And Dylan, the reason characters (some of them, Sheik) are top tier is because they're broken. Her down throw is simply and undeniably overpowered. Same with Peach's Dsmash on fast-fallers.

Like I mentionned earlier, PAL Sheik is well done. He can't CG with dthrow anymore, but Sheik keeps his techchasing game. Also, his Uair has been weakened a bit... the only other nerf that would be accepable would is a slight decrease in knockback for his dsmash.

You guys whine so much about sheik it drives me insane. Instead of complaining about a certain character, why not get good at a character's, sort of speak, polar opposite?

For instance, Roy tends to annihlate Sheik. Why? Because Roy has the speed, maybe more lag, and has ten times the power of sheik.

Get good at somethin that you believe is the best way to take down sheik, otherwise shut ya trap. Honestly, it's annoying.

Lol if alot of smashers think that Marth do BAD against Sheik, I really wouldn't like to know how Roy fares against the Ninja.

 

[BigRick]

To all those people saying to nerf falcon's knee....

IT'S SO FUN!!!!!! Maybe reduce his combo ability so that u can't get it so easily.

For beginners it takes really good timing to get the knee down. The thing is that you can get out of it unless a good falcon (i've played marth1) gets that uair combo in the air. It also takes a **** long time to execute it.

I consider Falcon's knee more of a skill using it right with mindgames rather than an unfair strength of falcon's.

Some of the things I would really like to see nerfed though are: knockback on fox's shine, infinites, sheik fair, chaingrabbing.

Falcon in brawl IMO:

Possible nerfs:
- find a way to get rid of his CGs

Possible buffs:
- lack of ''up+B'' sickness after aerial Raptor Boost (would improve his horizontal recovery)
- increased priority for Raptor Boost

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

Roy does good on Shiek?

I've never heard such a thing, then again I'm new so my apologies if I missed that bit of information, last time I checked it was ICs who had a slight advantage on Shiek.

Go to youtube and search Reed(roy) vs, and you'll end up finding a battle with reed uvc vs nwc or sometin to that effect.

Reed is the best roy out there, but they practice with each other all the time, but his roy never loses. He plays others like fox and sheik.

 

[BigRick]

I've already seen vids of Reed. His Roy is impressive but...

- He doesn't live in USA or in JAPAN, meaning that he lacks good shieks to kick his butt
- and pointing to him doesn't prove that Roy > Sheik, it just proves that Reed >>> whoever he fights

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

hahahhahhahahahhahaha roy better than shiek. Roy isnt better than anything. Roy is a crap character, if Reed can actually win with him it means he's an exceptional smasher, just like Aniki winning with link, it doesn't subtract from Roy's crapiness, and it sure as HELL doesn't mean roy counters shiek. Shiek ***** him 15 ways from next sunday.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

Well my REAL point being:

Instead of *****in and moanin about how sheik "*****" people, find ways to counter sheik. Or if you can't beat em, join em. That's all i'm sayin.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Roy isn't crap. He just got gimped when it comes to the abilities distributed between he and Marth. Roy is relatively balanced, kinda.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

He just has crappy aerials that some people seem to live their whole life on.

I think he's just fine, he lags, but that's what shffling is good foor, and setting up the forward smash. Yummy.

 

[Inevitable]

I always knew Roy wasn't much of an excellent character due to the large amount of flaws and disadvantages he has, Marth is like a reincarnation of Roy that is actually suited a lot better for competitive play.

Shiek is good but clearly not unbeatable.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

True, true. You gotta admit though, those Roy vs Marth matches are pretty cool eh? I'm a bit biased

 

[Inevitable]

Even though Shiek is considered better than Roy and is prooven as a fact, I would play Roy over Shiek any time, because I enjoy Roy a lot more than Shiek.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

I think sheik is just a good backup, but I will agree, she needs s'more lag or at least less knockback, if she even comes back at all that is. But she doesn't bother me too much, b/c if ppl beat me with sheik, they're just a better player anyway.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Even though Shiek is considered better than Roy and is prooven as a fact, I would play Roy over Shiek any time, because I enjoy Roy a lot more than Shiek.

Roy has teh ph1r3.

Well my REAL point being:

Instead of *****in and moanin about how sheik "*****" people, find ways to counter sheik. Or if you can't beat em, join em. That's all i'm sayin.

For sure.. shiek isn't hard to beat at all if you're better than the other guy, comes down to skill, once you knock shiek far enough off the edge shes THE easist character to edgeguard in the game. Edgehog, wait for her to teleport onto the ledge since she has no option to grab the ledge, then hit her with just about anything during the INSANE ammount of lag she has after her up B.

 

[Dark Sonic]

To all the people saying to nerf Marth's range:
Leave Marth's range and sweetspot alone. If Marth didn't have his range he would suck. He doesn't have a shine, or float cancel, or something really fast (comparatively) that can be exploited and his power at close range sucks. Marth rocks at begginer levels of play, then fails at intermediate levels of play, and then does above average at higher levels of play. That's as balanced as I think it could get.

He's still got that stupid grudge against him that people just can't let go. Why don't people hate Peach, Fox, or Falco this much. I've seen those guys do the craziest and gimpiest stuff but no one complains about them. Marth only has 3-4 matches that are 7 or above and the rest are 5s and 6s (except for his 3 on Shiek). He doesn't do nearly as well against the low tiers as the other high tier characters so I don't see what the problem is. He's even got one of the most even matches in the game, Marth vs. Gannondorf.

He's easy to combo, easy to edgeguard, and easy to kill in any given direction, so he has to do well on the stage to even be worth using.

Stop complaining about the high tiers and just make the low tiers better. Give better smashes to Mario, better hit tragectories with Roy, more weight to Mewtwo, more range to Bowser, a bigger shield to G&W, and a JC to Yoshi (he could use an Up B recovery too).

Sorry if I sound like a b*tch, but I'm tired of this stupid grudge. I'm just a guy that's trying to defend my character so that he doesn't have to suffer like Kirby, Ness, and Pikachu.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I agree man. You put it perfectly, thats the exact argument I would make for marth but as a marth main youve thought about it much more importantly.

I would never dare suggest nerfs to marth, I dont see whats ''imba'' about him to begin with except that noobs can play ''c-stick marth'' and annoy their friends.

**** noobs, and **** nerfing marth.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

Yea marth needs no changes. He's fine as he is. The one character I think that needs the most work is Mewtwo, or Kirby. Otehr characters are just destined for slight changes.

Marth is a great beginner character, hence the reason he's a top tier character, but I think the ppl that use low tiers are better than an equally skilled player playin a top tier character. Why? Because they never practice against lower tiers. You get a DK vs Marth, the marth guy will be blown away(i.m.o.) because he wouldn't hav ea clue as far as weight goes, range yada yada yada.

 

[Inevitable]

Marth is High Tier not Top Tier.

 

[Red Exodus]

That's what I said in my long post. It doesn't matter what tier the character is in, the character still requires skill to use well. People keep over looking that and make excuses for it. I understand some characters do well against too many characters [Fox] but that doesn't mean you can just pick him up and own.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

You KNOW what I mean.

 

[Sensai]

IsmashedYOURmom, I'm assuming that you were talking about me when you said the whole 'stop whining about Sheik' thing, as the post I had posted just above that was one talking about why people would want Sheik out. I'm not gonna start an arguement, but I was just playing devil's advocate; I don't have any ill-will towards Sheik (rather, no unnatural ill-will. I DO, however, play Ganon).

 

[Speedsk8er]

I have NO problem with Marth having the sweetspot and if he's going to keep his range introduce a LITTLE lag to his Fsmash at least. The thing that I really have a problem with is Roy being screwed over in the cloning process. Almost every other character set has better balance(the jury's kinda out on the Link/YLink set). What did Roy get? Flare Blade? LOL Good luck fully charging it. A better counter? Who uses counter in higher levels of play? A more powerful UpB? Still sucks as a recovery. Teh ph1r3? It doesn't deal linger damage so it's the same as him never having it at all. Roy is the power to marth's speed? No, he's the suck to Marth's awesome.

And this is coming from an Ex-marth main.

 

[Inevitable]

Roy's counter is more useful than Marth's, and Marth's Up B is stronger than Roy's.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Roy's foward smash should be sped up instead of slowing Marth's down. If Marth's foward smash were slower it wouldn't combo well and it would seriously destroy his killing potential.
As a former Marth player your should know that combos stop working for Marth after a certain percent (normally 90% and up) and Marth really doesn't have any quick kill moves. He needs that quick smash to end the combo or else he won't be killing anyone.

You also should know that half of Marths moves don't hit right next to him. His grab, dash attack, f-tilt, f-smash, ledge attack, did I mention grab, and d-tilt all miss an opponent that is only slightly in front of him. Marth is ment to be good at range and that's why he's like that.

Roy's Fair should send them a little higher and should have more stun than Marth's sweet spotted fair. Roy's dair should meteor smash them all the way through his sword and Spike them at the hilt instead of the way it is now. I think Roy's attacks in general should have as much start up lag as Marth's but slightly more ending lag in comparison as compensation for his enourmous sweetspot.

Roy's range is actually quite large. It's just overshadowed by Marth's range. They're swords are the same length so anytime you wouldn't sweetspot with Marth that means you'd sweetspot with Roy.

Get my point. Don't make Marth worse, make Roy better.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Roy is the power to marth's speed? No, he's the suck to Marth's awesome.

That, sir, is my new signature.

In my opinion so long as Roys sweetspot is in the middle of his sword he will suck. He should also have tipper range. As my friend famously said

''To be good with Roy, you have to have crappy spacing'' but replace crappy with ****ty and kill whoever coded a censor system into these forums.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

IsmashedYOURmom, I'm assuming that you were talking about me when you said the whole 'stop whining about Sheik' thing, as the post I had posted just above that was one talking about why people would want Sheik out. I'm not gonna start an arguement, but I was just playing devil's advocate; I don't have any ill-will towards Sheik (rather, no unnatural ill-will. I DO, however, play Ganon).

I know you don't know me, but I was NOT talking about you. I am not a person to start an argument, just trying to stop people's whining that I read in the beginning of this thread. I only read about one page to one and a 1/2 pages of this thread before I went on a "Who cares bout Sheik" tantrum.

You're cool in my book

 

[Speedsk8er]

@ Sonic Wave

So introducing A LITTLE lag to Marth's Fsmash is going to break it and make it OMFG UNUSABLE? LOL I recall Gimpy's Bowser scoring an Fsmash in a match. Holy ****! Moar lag!

Basically, I'm saying either luigi(vb) Roy in Brawl(which I doubt he will be) or give him better balancing with Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And all I'm saying is leave The high tiers alone and bring the others up to them. The foward smash is Marth's only on the stage KO move so he needs it to be good. Samus's Foward smash is just as fast and no one cares about her's. His other two smashes suck, his foward tilt rarely kills anything and it doesn't combo, his uptilt is for comboing and not killing, his jab sucks, and his d-tilt is for edgeguarding and doesn't combo. That foward smash is suddenly very important for Marth and your trying to weaken it. When compared to some of the kill moves other characters have (All sex kicks, Gannon's Bair, Shiek's Fair, ect) that foward smash is downright slow.

I'm all for balance, but you never want to see your character suddenly get screwed. You add a little lag to his F-smash, then you add it to his fair and he losses SHDF. Then you take his spike and there goes the Ken combo. Then you mess with his up tilt, then the down tilt, and suddenly you don't even know how to play the character that you had used for so long.

 

[BigRick]

Marth isn't that good.

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

Marth isn't that good.

Nah he's good, but he's given too much credit. Then again, the number on eplayer in the world plays with him/pwnz with him. Hmm I dunno.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Okay, so no nerfs. Just strictly buffs to keep everyone happy.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

You'll never keep everyone happy.

I dunno I was enjoying the debate O.o don't see why we'd wanna AVOID conflicts on teh intrawebs. Its the whole fun of posting on a message board! (to me, anyway)

 

[IsmashedYOURmom]

Nothin wrong with discussin buffs and nerfs. Keeps the convo interesting.

I don't care bout nerfing Sheik, but since she will anyway, might as well give her more lag in her moves.

Hmm...yep that's ALL I can think of.

 

[rm88]

Do you think changing Bowser's Fire Breath for a SMB1-style-Fireball would make him too overpowered?

Faster and stronger than Mario's/Luigi's Fireball, but adding some noticeable lag before Bowser spits it so he can't spam Fireballs and kill everyone. What do you think?

 

[BigRick]

Do you think changing Bowser's Fire Breath for a SMB1-style-Fireball would make him too overpowered?

(pic)

Faster and stronger than Mario's/Luigi's Fireball, but adding some noticeable lag before Bowser spits it so he can't spam Fireballs and kill everyone. What do you think?

Hmm a projectile like that could be compared to Samus' smash missile...

Based on that fact, this new Fireball move would definitely not be overpowered. It would also be less effective because Bowser wouldn't be able to rush behind it, big dude is too slow for that.

Personally, I'd like to see have an improved version of his flamethrower move, just for variety's sake.

 

[Pikabunz]

Leave Bowser's firebreath the way it is, but make it so you can change the angle of it while using it. It would be just like Dhalsim's super yoga flame.

Same thing should be done to Link's arrows. Imagine being able to shoot an arrow at different angles. That would be very fun to master.

 

[Celsco]

I don't think any character is actually very buffed nor nerved. For example, Ganondorf is way 2 slow but therefore very strong. Fox isn't that strong but therefore very fast. So are all the characters balanced.

 

[Speedsk8er]

I don't think any character is actually very buffed nor nerved. For example, Ganondorf is way 2 slow but therefore very strong. Fox isn't that strong but therefore very fast. So are all the characters balanced.

HA AH AH AH AH AH! Melee, balanced. AH AH AH AH!

Lol. You guys are impossible to please. Okay, discuss nerfs too.