Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_U0GKFKOkQ&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSTepwghv7E&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CywE-TYw7rQ&feature=channel_page
Here are some vids from September 2008 of the first tournament I held. I've been holding small tournaments in the middle of tournaments and smashfests, and many people from all over the MW have been playing these as I've edited them. The circuit is the next step.
Like testing three stages for over a year with multiple people in the midwest, finding the stages work as planned in our smaller samples, and then moving it to a larger long-term sample so we can collect data in a real time environment?
Just like everyone else. If the custom stages were a huge horrnedous addition, the multitude of people that had tested them would have been like "...hey. These aren't cool." instead of getting good and bad responses from various people. Most of the people that have given bad responses have simply been those that prefer super small stage lists in the first place.
"neutral" is a misnomer. That's why we use the word "starter".
Previously, our starter stages were:
FD
BF
SV
YI
LC
CSiege
Delfino
Halberd
PS1
9 starters. No matter what matchup you got, you HAD to remove some of the stages and had a few good ones of your own. In the end, people played on a stage that was likeable by most parties. The most common stages were Smashville, PS1, and Delfino. Battlefield and Yoshi's Island weren't far behind.
We then noticed that Delfino was like a super stage for characters with spikes. This wasn't in itself a problem, but it tested a different skill set than any and all other stages and helped to create inconsistent results. If a DK and an Ike played on Delfino, we saw lots of water fights. We also saw lots of low % gimps on the walk-off sides because people liked to play dangerous games. None of this was really a problem, but it was a cause for concern because that style of play was more common to CPs. Thus, we removed Delfino from the starter list and had 8 starters. Instead of using a confusing 1221212 system (or something of the sort) to end on the eigth stage, we merely decided to move it down to 7. I don't recall if Halberd or CSiege was next to go, but one of them disappeared.
As time went on, we realized CSiege had similar problems to Delfino as well as massive campfests on the second transformation that no one liked. Halberd's ceiling was really low in comparison, and the hazards were just a bit TOO intrusive. PS1 was okay, but the rock formation led to a lot of infinites that cost an entire stock (a big thing in Brawl!).
The stage list was then shortened to 5, defeating the original purpose of the starter list. We now had:
FD
BF
SV
YI
LC/PS1 depending on the tournament/region
These stages all worked for similar characters. The only real outliers were Lylat Cruise and FD. LCruise due to its edges caused many characters, like spacies, to take special care in recovery, but didn't give huge advantages or disadvantages overall. FD, however, gives HUGE advantages in a multitude of match-ups. Because it's flat, a lot of people thought it was fair. This is not true.
Because of this, many characters that excel on the flat plat stages get to start on FD, BF, or SV. As this ruleset caught on, we saw Falco, Diddy, and ICs all rise in ranks. This is not a coincidence. They get to start on what is essentially a counterpick! That's even worse than "random" in Melee, and random was what we wanted to get away from! We don't want to have anyone with an advantage, even a slight one, if we can help it.
My solution was custom stages. I originally had 3 starters, Equity, Libra, and Abyss. I had people vote on whether they wanted LC or PS1 as the 7th starter, and we had our stage list. After testing Abyss more, I found it changed gameplay too much. Others said similar things, Xisin being the first; it just had a different feel. So, I added in both LC and PS1 and moved Abyss as a CP, as Abyss was a popular stage amongst most that played it... but didn't work as a starter.
Removing FD was a no-brainer. It gives huge advantages in certain matchups, and it's just not worth keeping it in. The stage is one of the biggest CPs in the game; it's more fair to play on PS2 in most matchups than it is on FD.
But, I did need a replacement. There should be a stage for those that excel without platform interference.
So, I created Libra. The plat in the middle is small enough to give you a place to run to, and helps speed up vertical KOs (you can jump on it, then aerially chase a falling opponent). The platforms on the side aid recovery; this means that those that are just flat out awful on flat stages can play a very strong edge game and take more risks. The plats also completely remove planking as a viable option, which always seemed to be a problem on FD for some reason.
So Diddy and ICs still have Libra on the stage list, but it's not AS strong as FD was.... but they do have an advantage in that they now have Libra AND FD as CPs. I noticed in my sets against AZ that while in 2 out of 3 sets it was almost unfair as to what stages we had to play, in 3 out of 5 sets the tables turned completely. He'd simply run out of CPs! I ban one stage and we have one as a starter, and then he CPs the other... but what to do on his second CP? Having an advantage or disadvantage in a matchup merely because it's 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 is possible, but should be avoided in most situations if possible.
Now, any matchup against characters that are strong on these stages will be more evenly matched for the starting stage, and these characters will have other options for CPs as well.
I got feedback primarily from top players, members of the SBR, and people that will be within reasonable driving distance for the circuit. NEOH was included in this, and had copies of the stages themselves for some time. I never forced anyone to test them, so if they didn't... meh?
It's all about making progress. I don't get paid to run the circuit. I love competitive gaming and love the community, and I hate it when TOs that don't have a history with competition take the reigns and decide they'll do what they like best without thinking of the consequences. There are lots of ways to go about doing things, and while admittedly my way of determining a good stage list is slower than most, it is also the best. If it ain't broke, don't ban it. If it is broke, prove it, then ban it, then tell everyone else why it's broken. I'm part of the group that determined why stages were banned. When Onett was banned, it was because D3 was "too good" on that stage. This is not true in the slightest, and Onett was never really given a chance. No one ever abused it in tournament... people just feared it would happen. You gotta wait for it to happen before you can just theorize it away in most cases, otherwise you end up with a poorly balanced result.
Rumbe Falls is an example of a unique stage no one knows anything about. It's a vertical scroller, and was originally banned because we thought Bowser was too slow to keep up with the stage (false) and that the spikes were near instant death (also false, only one spike doesn't have set knockback that I know of).
Fun fact: The tiers for Melee were determined by two things. One was the characters themselves, the other was the stages that were played first round. Marth was able to succeed with such power because he did well on all the stages. Luckily for Melee, each and every one of the starters had different sizes, plat layouts, etc., and there were nuances to each stage that changed every matchup. Brawl starters are all the same size by default, meaning if you're character does well on one, he'll prolly do well on all of them. This can be problematic.
With custom stages, we can change the vertical blast zones, or even make one side of the stage KO faster than others. We can change stage sizes, and with certain stage editors we can stack objects to really change how stages are laid out. These stages are only the beginning.
It wasn't my main criteria either, but the most universal response I received from everyone playing this?
"These are just fun to play on. They're NEW. It gets boring playing on the same stages all the time."
Playing on custom stages amidst the standard ones had a rejuvenating effect for many players, and could help make people enjoy tournaments more. Some people already like tournaments more or less due to stage lists... what happens a year from now if we have a list of 15 custom stages that have been used over the USA and have been tested in tournament? Someone could get excited because this time Equity was a starter again, that kind of thing.
Plus, it adds another level of community involvement. You don't think I'm gonna be making ALL the custom stages for all time, do you?
I've been playing competitive games for a long time. I've played lots of them. In the end, the one thing they all have in common, is that someone ALWAYS *****es because the rules aren't what they like. I know what I'm doing, and however bad you think it is, it isn't that bad. You'll even enjoy the tournament, promise.
