The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[da K.I.D.]

I dont think puff truly does that well against most if any characters. she just has a really annoying hit and run style and anybody that plays her has to pretty much not get hit ever. so when people dont know how to combat it, it make the 5 people that do play the character look really good when they do good things. but she has a proper spot on the list currently

 

[Justblaze647]

but she has a proper spot on the list currently

meh, I think jiggz should go down about three spots

 

[PND]

Jiggs. . . gets wrecked by Falcon?

Wait, what?

I hope people aren't using the set of Ally vs I as the basis for that. The first match was rather even, ending last stock mid-high percents. . . and the second match I gave up tried to sing and taunt dodge him (laughing and making jokes the entire time, **** was hilarious. <3 Ally). Either way, Ally is way better than me. The fact that I managed to bring him to his last stock on the first match should be proof enough that Falcon doesn't **** Jiggs. . . just that Ally is a way better player than I am. Honestly, I'd say it's close to even or possibly Jiggs advantage -- that's the only explanation for why I did as well as I did.

 

[TP]

LOL at saying Ganon - ICs is more onesided than DK - DDD. I don't use DDD, but if I lose to a DK game one and the infinite is legal, I'm gonna go to my controls, change C stick to grab, switch to DDD, and win. People can't just choose ICs and win because it takes some amount of practice to use the infinites.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

LOL at saying Ganon - ICs is more onesided than DK - DDD. I don't use DDD, but if I lose to a DK game one and the infinite is legal, I'm gonna go to my controls, change C stick to grab, switch to DDD, and win. People can't just choose ICs and win because it takes some amount of practice to use the infinites.

don't these matchups take into account the top people of each character, not random people who can use Ice Climbers that don't know how to chain grab? If this was true then I could say Luigi wins vs MK since i 3 stocked one of them yesterday?

Ice Climbers vs DK is overall worse, and if I am not mistaken, in most tournaments it seems the infinite is banned.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I would believe that DK vs IC is worst dude to how most tourny ban the DDD infinite. Same time it is not as simple to do IC chain grab then like DDD. All you do with DDD is walk.........or the broken way, stand there.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I would believe that DK vs IC is worst dude to how most tourny ban the DDD infinite. Same time it is not as simple to do IC chain grab then like DDD. All you do with DDD is walk.........or the broken way, stand there.

no this is the worst matchup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE1W1FYuVQM

kidding aside, does it matter if something is more difficult. Ganondorf has no moves to avoid the grab. Isn't it right that IC's can grab him out of basically all of his aerials due to its range?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I thought Ganon Vs Yoshi was his worst. Cause the way I heard it, Ganon can't do anything about yoshies pivot grab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I would believe that DK vs IC is worst dude to how most tourny ban the DDD infinite.

correction. Most tourneys that are held where WE live, ban the infinite, other regions are a lot more liberal with their rules. which kinda explains why like 4 of the top 5 DKs are in the AN

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I thought Ganon Vs Yoshi was his worst. Cause the way I heard it, Ganon can't do anything about yoshies pivot grab.

judging from this http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473 the ganondorf matchup discussion page, his worst are Ice Climbers, Sheik and Olimar (All 0 to 100..lol)

 

[Jigglymaster]

Still, this feels really really weird that Zelda < Jiggs < Falcon

I refuse to believe that Zelda is the 3rd worst in the game. I don't really feel like searching the thread so is there a good quote somebody could show me so I can understand why lol.

Characters don't just drop 9 spots like that.

 

[.Marik]

I have to agree with Twilight Prince here in regards to the King Dedede vs. Donkey Kong matchup.

Ganondorf vs. Shiek/Ice Climbers is really bad as well.

Trust me, Yoshi isn't even close to Ganondorf's worse matchup.

We hurt Squirtle more than we do Ganondorf.

 

[bigman40]

I have to agree with Twilight Prince here in regards to the King Dedede vs. Donkey Kong matchup.

Ganondorf vs. Shiek/Ice Climbers is really bad as well.

Trust me, Yoshi isn't even close to Ganondorf's worse matchup.

We hurt Squirtle more than we do Ganondorf.

Naw. Squirtle can actually do damage to us when he gets momentum. Ganon still gets ***** hard even if we can't spike him from release (but we can still Fsmash him from release) It's hard for Ganon to avoid getting grabbed with the moveset he's been given.

 

[.Marik]

I've played Ray Kalm.

Trust me, Squirtle gets ***** harder by our Pivot Grab because of the manner he's eventually forced to approach in.

Granted, he's not as a whole such a mediocre character, but Ganondorf can plank much better and well spaced aerials are a pain in the anus for Yoshi.

Ganondorf is like 65:35, Squirtle is probably like 70:30 Yoshi's favour.

If the Ganondorf spaces well and decides to plank and play really defensive, we're only getting a few grabs in. Squirtle can't do much about it, and it's a guaranteed grab to a spike correct?

Ray Kalm is scary man, people need to play this dude.

 

[bigman40]

And I've played Reflex. Squirtle has the tools to avoid it for the most part, but either way, getting grabbed for both characters means either death or 20+ damage. If Ganon needs to plank, then just sit out of range and throw the eggs. No need to go after him. It doesn't take that many grabs in the first place to make the percentage add up.

 

[.Marik]

Point taken.

Still, I'm hypothetically thinking along the terms if both are forced to approach.

I think Ganondorf will have a more interesting time baiting us, to say the least.

I've always wanted to play Reflex's Ivysaur. How did playing him go?

 

[CaliburChamp]

Still, this feels really really weird that Zelda < Jiggs < Falcon

I refuse to believe that Zelda is the 3rd worst in the game. I don't really feel like searching the thread so is there a good quote somebody could show me so I can understand why lol.

Characters don't just drop 9 spots like that.

The majority of the people in the BBR room aren't familiar with Zelda. They tend to disregard low tier match ups. Zelda has no one that plays her in the BBR, and only like 2 people represent Zelda to the fullest, but they don't attend tournaments much. They wanted to make a triforce tier for the lolz, that's why Captain Falcon isn't in the same tier as Link and Ganon. If captain Falcon and Zelda switched places, the new tier list would look at least 30% more legit.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im the first one to say that one person shouldnt raise a characters tier position

but when you have ally beating known good people with falcon, and you have... ... ...

...

nothing. for zelda, then how can you really say that zelda is better?

sure you can theorycraft and say that in a vacuum, zelda has better tools, but you cant refute the in game evidence that ally put forth.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The majority of the people in the BBR room aren't familiar with characters that don't matter to them besides the ones they over hype.

Fixed for more truth.

 

[YagamiLight]

Zelda probably has nobody repping just her because the best way to play Zelda is alongside Sheik in a 70-30 configuration or something of that nature. Zelda probably isn't going to go up based solely on a single person going 100% Zelda because I don't think anyone is stupid enough to not use half of their character, especially if the Sheik half is better.

 

[Dark.Pch]

At this point, I dont think rep has anything to do with this or with alot of characters for that matter.

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah after seeing this tier list that's pretty obvious. But in case representation WERE to matter then Zelda would still not move up due to it. A sad scenario.

 

[bigman40]

I've always wanted to play Reflex's Ivysaur. How did playing him go?

I haven't played his PT in a wihle, but Ivysaur gettings very annoying for us with the Bairs. Think of Ivy like us with more range and more killing power, but less combo power.

 

[aozf05]

I dunno if this has already been said but I think samus is underrated.

You know its much more convincing when you EXPLAIN your reasoning rather than just saying it.

BTW.

Why do I think she's underrated? Partly because people dismiss samus as being a bad character without trying her or because people would rather opt for faster characters that have more powerful attacks and thus less people play as samus.

Samus is a floaty heavyweight, which makes her harder to kill. And she has pretty good recovery so it's uncommon to fall to your death when playing as her. All of her aerial attacks have no landing lag which makes it easy to chain into ground moves or more aerial moves. And she has zair which is really good for distancing and chaining into other attacks. Her missiles, while not useful for dealing damage, can be used to harass the opponent while you get in close to grab or do some real damage or they can be used for edge guarding. Her edge game is also really good. When she's hanging on the edge she can fall, jump, then do a quick aerial attack instead of the standard edge climb/jump/attack maneuvers that leave more opportunity for the opponent to attack. She can also use the zair without grabbing the edge if done right. The result is people can't edge guard samus. This added with being harder to kill in the first place means she has good survivability. A good samus player should be able to deal around 100-150 damage easily after which the only problem is landing a kill move, of which she has few. She has bad matchups with fast characters and a few of the really high tier characters but other than that I don't think she deserves to be fifth from the bottom.

Another thing is that I've found that good samus players are uncommon. The majority of people that I've seen play her only camp and spam charge beams and screw attacks which are noob strategies on the level of spamming kirby's stone and hammer attacks or spamming all of ike's smash and b attacks. I think there is untapped potential with samus and there is room to move up the tier list but most people think she's just a sucky character.

But then maybe the tier list was made with all of this in consideration.

 

[Justblaze647]

I haven't played his PT in a wihle, but Ivysaur gettings very annoying for us with the Bairs. Think of Ivy like us with more range and more killing power, but less combo power.

This is how Ivy is supposed to be played, although there are a few combos to speak of (nair gimmicks)

Hence why Reflex is my hero.

 

[Shaya]

I love it when the two guys who are seen as the most biased and/or silly in their opinions continue to ignore things that are constantly brought up as justifications; I can only assume this is for their own selfish reasons.

Ill say this once again,
After Meta Knight, pretty much the most talked about character during the tier list process in a SERIOUS manner was Zelda.
Match ups, frame data, representation, REALITY. I am sorry that DP and Calibur do not seem to like such things. Im not sure of CC, but DP is purely selfish/ignorant in his campaign.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm selfish and arrogant in all of this. Oh please do tell me how this is true. You boys can even make a legit reason for the placing of Pit, Zelda, Link and the fact that Peach has not moved yet again. Don't try to make me look like the mean one when you got nothing to explain for yourselves in these cases.

I am not afraid to call the BBR out hardcore for their mistakes. You all work in a community to make rules and a tier list for a reason. And to me, it is not being shown at all.

No one in there has yet to give me a legit reason as to why Peach has not moved yet again. Why Pit got that insane boost. And why Zelda/link got what they did. I'll make this easy and answer that for you. Cause you simply cant. And screwed up.

Also I doubt you boys talked about her like that with data and etc and got her to the spot that she is now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I love it when the two guys who are seen as the most biased and/or silly in their opinions continue to ignore things that are constantly brought up as justifications; I can only assume this is for their own selfish reasons.

Ill say this once again,
After Meta Knight, pretty much the most talked about character during the tier list process in a SERIOUS manner was Zelda.
Match ups, frame data, representation, REALITY. I am sorry that DP and Calibur do not seem to like such things. Im not sure of CC, but DP is purely selfish/ignorant in his campaign.

I don't see how you guys could have an in depth discuss about Zelda and then come away with the idea that she's the 3rd worst character in the game. But then again if you got the match up from the Zelda boards then it will make since. But whatever though I guess it doesn't matter in the end I do not feel as though you guys did a good job with this tier list and that a lot of it is just wrong but I'm just one scrubby player who couldn't hack it with Marth what the hell do I know =/.

 

[smashmachine]

i think the next tier list should have peach move down just to piss SOMEONE off...

jk jk
just leave her in the same spot

oh and people don't have the patience to wait for an opening against pit

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm pretty sure this has been suggested before, but why doesn't the BR just have all the tier list discussions, decisions, and voting available for everyone to view.

 

[Arcade]

Considering how they reacted when their LGL poll got leaked, I doubt that would ever happen.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I still think Jigglypuff should switch places with Falcon

I know this isn't much when I say I placed with Jigglypuff at Pound 4 but were comparing her to Captain Falcon here, he hasn't been getting much rep either.

Even if people do know how to fight Jigglypuff shes still got some great planking capabilities that nobodies really tried mastering yet.

 

[Vmage]

I still think Jigglypuff should switch places with Falcon

I know this isn't much when I say I placed with Jigglypuff at Pound 4 but were comparing her to Captain Falcon here, he hasn't been getting much rep either.

Even if people do know how to fight Jigglypuff shes still got some great planking capabilities that nobodies really tried mastering yet.

Yes Jigglypuff has some hidden abilities waiting to be discovered. She is actually pretty good for me. I'm not that good with some higher tier characters like Ness, Sonic, or even Olimar as Jigglypuff has the right tools for me.

This is just my opinion. Sure, some of you may not know how she's used but everyone can handle their character of choice differently. Others can overcome their character's weakness, but may not overcome other character's weakness. It's all up to them to chose their character play style.

 

[Shaya]

Actually I have given you very good reasons MULTIPLE TIMES why Pit moved.
But you ignored them.

da KID and phil commented on exactly what I said the LAST TIME you asked (and subsequently you ignored it to then bring it up a few days later). If you arent doing it because you are insane, you must be doing it because you just selfishly want to cause commotion.

Zelda dropped with GOOD reasoning.
Good match up with Ice Climbers? Every ICs main in the BR stated that the match up is in their favour.
Good match up with Dedede? Myself (who has played the match up) and various other Dedede users agreed that it is in Dededes favour as well; I believe there was over all unanimous acceptance that Dedede wins the match up from other BBR players as well. I have personally explained to you why I doubt its even (or Zeldas favour), and then you talked about whiffed ftilts when I never even mentioned throwing out ftilts randomly.
The only match ups I am aware she has the advantage in are Bowser and Ganondorf. Why would I know that? Because we discussed Zelda. Beyond a smash diable fsmash and usmash, she has a fast dsmash and a powerful kill moves (that do not have set ups), she has critical weaknesses in her grab, mobility, camping and recovery.

I and most others in the BR are reasonably stern on the point that we believe she is bottom tier.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I have to cosign to shaya, I def. got that deja-vu feeling when I read his post.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Actually I have given you very good reasons MULTIPLE TIMES why Pit moved.
But you ignored them.

da KID and phil commented on exactly what I said the LAST TIME you asked (and subsequently you ignored it to then bring it up a few days later). If you arent doing it because you are insane, you must be doing it because you just selfishly want to cause commotion.

Zelda dropped with GOOD reasoning.
Good match up with Ice Climbers? Every ICs main in the BR stated that the match up is in their favour.
Good match up with Dedede? Myself (who has played the match up) and various other Dedede users agreed that it is in Dededes favour as well; I believe there was over all unanimous acceptance that Dedede wins the match up from other BBR players as well. I have personally explained to you why I doubt its even (or Zeldas favour), and then you talked about whiffed ftilts when I never even mentioned throwing out ftilts randomly.
The only match ups I am aware she has the advantage in are Bowser and Ganondorf. Why would I know that? Because we discussed Zelda. Beyond a smash diable fsmash and usmash, she has a fast dsmash and a powerful kill moves (that do not have set ups), she has critical weaknesses in her grab, mobility, camping and recovery.

I and most others in the BR are reasonably stern on the point that we believe she is bottom tier.

It's not rare for people to overstate their match up ratios .You should be well aware of this.

 

[stingers]

zeldas best approach is roll to dtilt. lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

zeldas best approach is roll to dtilt. lol

does anyone find this true and therefore, sad?

 

[Arcade]

It's not rare for people to overstate their match up ratios .You should be well aware of this.

Out of curiosity, who are the top Zelda mains that say the matchup is in their favor?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Out of curiosity, who are the top Zelda mains that say the matchup is in their favor?

Which match up ? d3 or IC?