The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[ShadowLink84]

I approved of that no double mk team rule (cause lets be honest, thats what it was) so much.

but at least now theres a chance m2k/ally wont win everything. seeing as from where i can see, the only teams that have a chance of beating them (shadow/diem and tyrant/dsf, maybe a few others,) were mostly double mk.

You sound like an idiot.

QQ moar scrub.

 

[Steeler]

Squirtle: 12% in one frame without being as horrible as ZSS's, and even has huge range. Super amazing.

Squirtle's jab is RIDICULOUSLY good.

actually it only does 9% but the range is good. you guys overrate it just a tad though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

actually it only does 9% but the range is good. you guys overrate it just a tad though.

Cannot the 3rd hit be PSed like ZSS and Snake with some DI?

 

[Steeler]

yes if you very good at SDI'ing backward but that's true of pretty much every jab. it's not as easy to PS as ZSS/Snake though. squirtle also cannot jab cancel into anything guaranteed at all, unless the second jab trips.

 

[bigman40]

Cant' the 3rd hit be PSed like ZSS and Snake with some DI?

Fixed, and yes. The 3rd jab can be PSed. Charizard's can too.

Edit: Steeler's a ninja. FFFFFFFFFFF.....


~Mieu

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

yes if you very good at SDI'ing backward but that's true of pretty much every jab. squirtle also cannot jab cancel into anything guaranteed at all, unless the second jab trips.

Only SDI backwards? I thought you could have regular DI down and shield.

But yeah, pretty much every character does not have a 100%, true combo follow up from a jab cancel. Falco does not have that, but his jab cancels are really good anyway.

Fixed, and yes. The 3rd jab can be PSed. Charizard's can too.

Who cares if I say cannot vs can't >_>

 

[Steeler]

Fixed, and yes. The 3rd jab can be PSed. Charizard's can too.

actually it's the second hit that can be PSed.

Edit: Steeler's a ninja. FFFFFFFFFFF.....

edit: anyway what i am trying to say is that squirtle's jab cancels are really bad. and i believe it has enough hitstun to still link if you are in range.

 

[Ripple]

squirtle's jab cancels are really bad. e.

you know what else is bad?

not giving someone's shoes back after 6 months

steeler=stealer

 

[YagamiLight]

I thought the idea behind Squirtle's jab wasn't to inflict damage but more or less to function as an effective high-range GTFO tool. I would argue that it performs this extremely well, in fact.

Ike is probably the character who relies the most on his jab combo at close range not just because it is an amazing option but because it is his ONLY option. Falco / Peach / Falcon use it a lot too but the thing is that they have other options as well. If you're in front of Ike your face is probably getting punched. No exceptions.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, squirtle's jabs do not need to cancel, they are ridiculous without it. It's probably the best "get out of my face" move in the game.

 

[Steeler]

ripple your shoes are lost...somewhere in my basement. i am very bad at "I Spy". i would not steal your shoes anyway, as they are crappy.

yes, it's a very good GTFO move and the reason squirtle likes clashing attacks with other characters. but that's about it for what is "amazing" about it since it's pretty unsafe on shield and is too slow to punish spotdodges by just holding A. i mean, i'm not saying it's a bad move because it's clearly quite good, but everything aside from the fact it's 1f is merely average or decent.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Let's talk about Squirtle's F-Tilt. :D

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah

Squirtle is so good, he just is. If you disagree it's because you're wrong.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Let's talk about Squirtle's F-Tilt. :D

Let us talk about making Ivysaur less bad.

 

[Luigi player]

Let us talk about making Ivysaur less bad.

Down B.

10downBs

 

[YagamiLight]

Ivysaur gets a lot of unnecessary hate. Consider this: Can your character perform the following combo?

Down B -> ROCK SMASH

Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[DMG]

My character can run around and fart on people

Same thing

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My character can run around and fart on people

Same thing

I thought your character flew around on little sticks in the air tooting on people.

 

[SmashVeteran]

Tiers R 4 Queers? WRONG!

 

[Red Arremer]

Tiers R 4 Queers? WRONG!

I'm not quite sure whether this was a necessary statement.

 

[Luigi player]

I'm not quite sure whether this was a necessary statement.

Who cares.

He's a smash veteran, he knows what's up!

 

[Red Arremer]

He's from Japan, everything he says should be framed in gold and worshipped.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

as should sakurai

 

[SWIFT_SHOOTER-22]

Fox needs to be higher

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Let us talk about making Ivysaur less bad.

Let's talk about platforms and proper spacing. It's the same thing, really.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why do I think she's underrated? Partly because people dismiss samus as being a bad character without trying her or because people would rather opt for faster characters that have more powerful attacks and thus less people play as samus.

Samus is a floaty heavyweight, which makes her harder to kill. And she has pretty good recovery so it's uncommon to fall to your death when playing as her. All of her aerial attacks have no landing lag which makes it easy to chain into ground moves or more aerial moves. And she has zair which is really good for distancing and chaining into other attacks. Her missiles, while not useful for dealing damage, can be used to harass the opponent while you get in close to grab or do some real damage or they can be used for edge guarding. Her edge game is also really good. When she's hanging on the edge she can fall, jump, then do a quick aerial attack instead of the standard edge climb/jump/attack maneuvers that leave more opportunity for the opponent to attack. She can also use the zair without grabbing the edge if done right. The result is people can't edge guard samus. This added with being harder to kill in the first place means she has good survivability. A good samus player should be able to deal around 100-150 damage easily after which the only problem is landing a kill move, of which she has few. She has bad matchups with fast characters and a few of the really high tier characters but other than that I don't think she deserves to be fifth from the bottom.

Another thing is that I've found that good samus players are uncommon. The majority of people that I've seen play her only camp and spam charge beams and screw attacks which are noob strategies on the level of spamming kirby's stone and hammer attacks or spamming all of ike's smash and b attacks. I think there is untapped potential with samus and there is room to move up the tier list but most people think she's just a sucky character.

But then maybe the tier list was made with all of this in consideration.

I'd have to agree with you. Samus is only considered bad because she's easily anticipated. A smart Samus player will lock down your options more so than all but one or two characters in this game by making it harder to anticipate her, which she has the tools and a safe moveset to do so.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd have to agree with you. Samus is only considered bad because she's easily anticipated. A smart Samus player will lock down your options more so than all but one or two characters in this game by making it harder to anticipate her, which she has the tools and a safe moveset to do so.

That's not true samus is bad because she is a bad character. Her moveset isn't safe at all.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That's not true samus is bad because she is a bad character. Her moveset isn't safe at all.

Her moveset is very safe. It's constantly underestimated. She has a FTilt that has more range than Marth's that hits on frame 7. Her Jab is growth based and works at mid or higher percents. Her projectiles shouldn't hit you all that often, but they will normally have low lag from the position she uses them, meaning it's not simple to punish her even if you powershield missiles and charge shot consistently. Her ZAir however is extremely hard to avoid because it's a frame 9 move that outranges everything, can be used out of her airdodge, this move has more pressuring ability than many other moves in the game. Pressuring her is obnoxiously difficult not just because of ZAir, and her walk/air speed, but also since bombs are basically mini-grenades that let her stall in the air. Her FAir and Dash attack are good trap setups, and she has very solid edge-guard options due to her excellent recovery and projectile options. Her DAir is also safe on block and is a pretty good setup or combo starter that has what seems to be infinite priority.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Her moveset is very safe. It's constantly underestimated. She has a FTilt that has more range than Marth's that hits on frame 7. Her Jab is growth based and works at mid or higher percents. Her projectiles shouldn't hit you all that often, but they will normally have low lag from the position she uses them, meaning it's not simple to punish her even if you powershield missiles and charge shot consistently. Her ZAir however is extremely hard to avoid because it's a frame 9 move that outranges everything, can be used out of her airdodge, this move has more pressuring ability than many other moves in the game. Pressuring her is obnoxiously difficult not just because of ZAir, and her walk/air speed, but also since bombs are basically mini-grenades that let her stall in the air. Her FAir and Dash attack are good trap setups, and she has very solid edge-guard options due to her excellent recovery and projectile options. Her DAir is also safe on block and is a pretty good setup or combo starter that has what seems to be infinite priority.

a 7 frame ftilt oh noes. But seriously how safe are any of these moves on shield? If samus was as safe as you claim she would be a lot better character. Brawl is a defensive game the characters who have more safe moves then their opponent wins more IE MK also Snake. So i'll have to disagree with your stance on the amount of Safe options Samus has at any give moment.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

a 7 frame ftilt oh noes. But seriously how safe are any of these moves on shield? If samus was as safe as you claim she would be a lot better character. Brawl is a defensive game the characters who have more safe moves then their opponent wins more IE MK also Snake.

I don't know whether you missed it, or just can't read, but my previous post explains how Samus' moves are safe on shield.

So i'll have to disagree with your stance on the amount of Safe options Samus has at any give moment.

Not much else of an argument.

 

[Zankoku]

Samus' lack of killing power and overall lack of fast-startup kill moves are what make her kinda bad. In terms of being safe on shield she's actually quite good.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Her position on the tier list is actually fine where it is, but she, along with a few of the other current F tier characters, belong in the tier above.

 

[Red Arremer]

as should sakurai

Sakurai is from Japan, too, so the same applies to him.

 

[<π]

sheik's ftilt is better than samus similar range faster

Nah... it is very easy to get inside of samus' comfort zone. and once you are there she has so much trouble better you away. nor real reliable get off moves. and no speed to speak of, bad roll. etc.

It's very hard to control space against good players who know the match up. and even harder to kill.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

First hit of jab is 2-3 frames if I recall correctly, enough to fend you off at mid percent. Also, you're not suppose to roll to "get away" as Samus, she has her air/walk speed to do that.

Samus does exceptionally well against characters who have to approach her, ignoring a certain few. With the ability to force you to anticipate her every move, and inflicting heavy damage all while being safe, Samus definitely isn't bad enough to be a F Tier character. Her killing potential may not be that good, but the fact is that she CAN still kill at near high percentages.

There just aren't many good Samus players around to show us how underrated (overlooked) this character is.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think you meant to say samus does well against characters that cant approach her.

cause theres a lot of characters that have to approach her and mess her up anyway.

MK
DDD
Sonic
Falcon

I know theres more, but I cant think of the rest.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

ignoring a certain few.

Sonic and Falcon do not "mess her up". They go about even.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Xyro says falcon eats samus, check the whobo thread

Ive played rhyme and i feel that matchup is explicitly in sonics favor, but thats just me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ummm, I think we're a little behind on the metagame, didn't we learn powershield?

 

[da K.I.D.]

ummmm i think youre a little behind on the meta-theorycraft. didnt you learn you cant PS everything?