Q&A The official "Ask Your Questions" thread

[MEXICAN]

0 to death ur DK

Spoiler

not really

lol, you wish Brandon

 

[otg]

I have a question. Sheik matchup. Wtf do you do. DIing out her combos isn't too bad, but I'm not too sure what the best way to combo her is. Any advice?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Gimp kill.

 

[otg]

Gimp kill.

I have a hard time gimping Sheik. DK's UpB edgeguarding doesn't really work on her too well because of her invincibility frames during the Up B. The best gimp I think possible would be to connect a Bair -> UpB off the edge but thats alot to ask for.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well you could get her off the stage, turn around and bair her a few times (hopefully avoiding any fairs she throws out) so that she's farther out. You don't have to connect with the Spinning Kong off stage, necessarily, though that would be cool.

As long as you're out there, the invincibility frames shouldn't be too much of a problem. She's not invincible until she's horizontal from the Vanish, which is frame eighteen. Grab the ledge after, and when she lands on the stage, you could ledgehop dair or ledgedash to sweetspot Spinning Kong or something.

 

[MEXICAN]

For the most part, you can't really gimp a sheik, especially if she has any skill whatsoever. She'll easily evade it if she has enough room to. The best you can do is grab the ledge and let her do her vanish and get up really quickly and attack her in her lag. Sheik is a really tough matchup because if she knows how to grab, she knows how to beat DK. Its too difficult for DK to escape her grab. If you ever manage to grab her, you're limited on what you can do to her. This whole matchup is about avoiding getting grabbed and just outsmarting your opponent.

There is no solid way to beat sheik. B air spamming won't work due to needles and her speed, she can easily grab you after a b air. You can't spam giant punches because she'll never give you that chance to charge. You can't rely on grabs because she grabs way better than DK does and even if you do grab her, you can't kill her from it for the most part. You can't win on edgeguarding because she can't really be gimped. This is why she's DK's second worst fight

The only piece of advice that i can really give you is that sheik doesn't really have anything to beat a crouch cancel. Crouch canceling should work fairly well against her. Do a crouch cancel into a down smash. DK's d smash has very good range and should still hit her even if you get knocked back a little bit from her attack. I'd suggest taking her to Pokemon stadium. That's my sheik stage. Low ceiling for easier kills (sheik CAN kill from the top, but not as well as DK can). The platforms are too far from the edge for her to teleport to and force her to land on the stage. On other stages like yoshi's story, she can just teleport to the platform if you're grabbing the edge. Pokemon stadium doesn't have that issue. And also, if you grab her, you can u throw, u air, and then land on the platform and u air/b air afterwards to continue the combo. Just my personal oppinion though. lol

 

[otg]

Yeah I've noticed crouch cancelling works pretty nice, but for the most part they start to see through that and camp even more... oy. Well, the way I deal with Sheik is just like you said Mexican, get that ***** off the stage and abuse her UpB lag. It's pretty universal regardless of who you use.

 

[Dogysamich]

Just because i think im actually going to see some cause of hte tier list change.

Mexican, what can you tell me about DK vs Doc?

 

[NJzFinest]

Just because i think im actually going to see some cause of hte tier list change.

Mexican, what can you tell me about DK vs Doc?

The Marios should, for the most part, be no problem for DK. If you have good DI, you'll practically never die to Mario. He's extremely limited in his ko options. F smash and d smash are his only real KO moves. Everything else DK can survive easy. This whole matchup, just run away and charge your giant punch, hitting him with b airs when he gets too close. Giant punch is your best friend. Run and charge and you pretty much have mario beat. You just have to know how to get around the fireballs, which isn't too hard.

Doc is a little bit more tricky. He actually has KO abilities. It's essentially the same game though. Just avoid the pills and charge your giant punch. Doc can't beat DK's b air or giant punch. Escaping his combos and edgeguarding are the only thing you have to worry about, but if you follow my basic advice, and you're on par with your opponent skillwise, you'll do fine

blahblah10chars

 

[otg]

Mexican's analysis of there matchup doesn't seem right, as there combo game vs. DK is much better than Dk's combo game vs. Mario's. Dk outranges them, but they outspeed and out camp him. Plus the Mario's jab game is fantastic so up close DK doesn't really have a lot of good options.

Both of their grab games vs. one another are both very effective and in terms of edgeguarding, it's hard to say who has the better advantage there. I don't know, I don't see how DK can have the advantage or go even with them if they camp and space properly. Just don't give DK enough time to charge up his punch.

 

[NJzFinest]

Dk outranges them, but they outspeed and out camp him.

They definitely don't outspeed DK, DK is at least just as fast as them. About "out camping", pills/fireballs really aren't that bad to deal with, they still give you space to charge punches and land Bairs when the Marios try to approach. Even so... unlike characters such as Falco or even Link, they can't even throw out projectiles when they're decently close to DK; the animation in pills/fireballs is way too laggy.
DK just needs to... attack them? And if you think that their mediocre "camping" is enough to keep DK in his tracks, then you're crazy.

Plus the Mario's jab game is fantastic so up close DK doesn't really have a lot of good options.

Up close? If Mario is getting very close to your DK, that's the first problem lol.

Both of their grab games vs. one another are both very effective and in terms of edgeguarding, it's hard to say who has the better advantage there.

? I don't think the Marios can actually KO off of a grab against DK, whereas, DK actually can.

I don't know, I don't see how DK can have the advantage or go even with them if they camp

Fireballs/pills = baby spam. The reason they Marios are as good as they are is because of gimps/solid edgeguarding and the fact they chaingrab good characters, namely 3 out of the 4 top tiers. If they had better spam, then the fact they don't have much range in their moves wouldn't matter as much (Ex. Falco).

and space properly.

Space what? Mario's body is smaller then DK's arm lol.

When I think of DK vs the Marios, I kinda picture it as... Marth vs Falco. Falco out camps and out speeds him, yet Marth has the upper hand (for reasons that should be obvious by now). Cept... Mario's don't really camp DK, or out speed him.

 

[otg]

Well when I say "the Mario's" I mean both Doc and Mario, however Mario sucks balls and from now on, lets not even mention him here. Now of course Doc can't camp out nearly as well as many other characters, but there is a safe distance where he can be close enough that pill spam puts pressure on DK while charging his punch, and also he is out of range of getting punished for it.

Pretty much, Doc forces DK to approach and can punish DK's very predictable approaches. Also, Doc's jab game is beast as hell while DK can't really follow up from a jab or react that while Doc is in his face that close.

Now out of grabs, Doc has Dthrow->fair at certain percents as well as Dthrow -> fsmash at lower percents. Edgehog/edgeguard, repeat 4 stocks. Plus I believe the Mario's can cg DK with dthrow for a few percents.

Space what? Bairs (SHBAWL works wonders here), ftilts (trades or beats out many of DK's moves, including Bair), Dsmash, jabs. Space yourself out so your not in DK's bair range, and if he has the Donkey Punch charged up be extra careful.

I mean DK is VERY predictable to fight against if you force him to approach. If he's facing you and has his Donkey punch charged, guess what move he's going to throw out? If he's facing backwards and jump towards you, guess what move he's going to use? Fact is, the Mario's have a better WD/WL game, better spotdodge, better shield, a projectile, better jab/potentially grab game, and overall just better mobility.

Force him to approach, maneuver around like nuts and I don't think Doc has a hard time vs. DK.

Edit:

Sorry forgot to mention this. Pills might be somewhat laggy, but if you waveland them your mobility increase quite a bit. FJ Pill (Dk approachs with Bair) -> WL backwards and repeat.

 

[NJzFinest]

Now of course Doc can't camp out nearly as well as many other characters, but there is a safe distance where he can be close enough that pill spam puts pressure on DK while charging his punch, and also he is out of range of getting punished for it.

Ok, so now he has to fulljump and charge his punch, lol.

Also, Doc's jab game is beast as hell while DK can't really follow up from a jab or react that while Doc is in his face that close.

Who uses jab with DK?

Now out of grabs, Doc has Dthrow->fair at certain percents as well as Dthrow -> fsmash at lower percents.

Dthrow to fsmash works with bad DI I believe, and since you mentioned it working at low percents, I don't see what's the problem with it since it definitely cannot KO.
Dthrow Fair is solid though, but getting in grabs with Doc shouldn't be easy given the fact he has like, 1 setup and terrible range.

Edgehog/edgeguard, repeat 4 stocks.

If the DK is terrible, sure, why not.

Plus I believe the Mario's can cg DK with dthrow for a few percents.

He can't.

Space what? Bairs (SHBAWL works wonders here), ftilts (trades or beats out many of DK's moves, including Bair), Dsmash, jabs.

This is where I stopped reading your post.
Doc's bair, ftilt, and jab have horrible range. Dsmash is mediocre, but... using it to outspace aerials..., really?
Anyways, DK's Bair beats all of them, not to mention his own tilts (ftilt and dtilt to be specific) and jab (againt's Doc's jab)... maybe even his grab too lol.

 

[Dogysamich]

doc's d.throw f.air hits anybody at specific percents except for samus. Regardless of DI.

Doc just have to come jump and fair fast enough and read the DI.

___

As for spam, i know that spam alone doesnt beat DK. If that was the case, then DK wouldnt be a hard(er) matchup for marth, which he is since he can reach marth (Meaning he has the range to keep him out). I'd assume a good DK would know how to deal with pillspam like everybody else, so that's not locking anybody down.

___

Spacing?

Doc/Mario can space WELL, but they cant literally outspace DK. Again, his reach is too long, i do know that for a fact.

___

Here is a question i do have for you NJz, what can Dk grab-> kill with? (Im guessing DK punch?)

And, what % (if any) is it guarenteed?

___
and last off topic thing.

Needs mo' talim.

 

[ranmaru]

Man, I have a bad habit of fairing and it doesn't actually come out or hit because I missed it, lol.

I wonder if anyone had that problem with Docs fair as well. (I don't have problems with docs fair, I meant Dk's fair)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Doc's fair is a lot easier to use than DK's.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah, but I remember not hitting people with Doc's fair at times, but now I can aim better with it. I am just wondering if I would also be able to fair with Dk, with enough practice, you know?

 

[otg]

Ftilt is actually his longest reaching move, it has very misleading range and can be angled up, beating out/trading with DK's Bairs. Count the fact that pills and jabs will turn DK around so he can't Bair spam. I'm not even saying DK should grab, I'm saying he CAN'T. That means Doc's jab->dsmash/grab will **** DK close quarters.

Dthrow -> fair is guaranteed at a few certain percents, what throw to KO moves does DK have on Doc and at what percents? Is it Cargo Uthrow -> Uair or Cargo Uthrow -> Donkey Punch? Seems like Doc could probably break out of those with a Nair or DJ Dair unless it was very low percents.

As for Doc having only 1 setup for grabs, I'd be curious to know what it is because I was under the impression that he had a lot more options to get grabs in than just one situation. I stand by my point as well, that Doc can force DK to approach, and sadly DK's approach game is very very predictable and limited.

Go to Alukard's bi weekly on the 15th. MM?

 

[NJzFinest]

___

Here is a question i do have for you NJz, what can Dk grab-> kill with? (Im guessing DK punch?)

And, what % (if any) is it guarenteed?

Uair and Fair. For the Fair, I have to use the control stick + Cstick to get it off ASAP, the Uair just takes some timing.

Somewhere under 100%. Cargo up throw to Uair works on more characters and percents then up throw to up air with Fox.

Ex. Works on Luigi and Samus.

___
and last off topic thing.

Needs mo' talim.

Lolzz, fo sho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Ujdfn-4pY

Go to Alukard's bi weekly on the 15th. MM?

Sure, this matchup is **** (for DK).
Whenever I'm back in NJ, I'll try to make it up to one of those.

DK vs Doc, $20 MM, let's goooo.

Going back in time:

Bairs **** Marth

Marth has SSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more range then Doc, yet you say ridiculous things about Doc xD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

DK's fair isn't too hard to land, it's a lot like Falcon's nair, you just have to know when you can fastfall. Interestingly enough, you can ledgehop it too.

 

[ranmaru]

Haha, I have suicided a few times trying to ledgehop > fair. xD

 

[Dogysamich]

*real talk*

Cargo up.throw, never thought of that. Thank you good sir.

_____

OTG, not trying to bash what you're saying, cause you're right, an up angeled f.tilt can cut off DK's bair, and pills can turn him around, but you're talking in a perfect world. It's not that we shouldnt be lookin for a perfect world, but im pretty sure said DK players i would be worried about are smart enough to know that if that **** works once, they're going to have to mix up their angles.

Pills, hell, pills should realistically never be THAT much of a problem to somebody. It's just all in knowing how to deal with pills.

Now dont get me wrong, im not saying that this kinda stuff doesnt work, but again, it's not to the point of where it dictates the match. That'd be a perfect world.

____

*Looks back at NJz*

I asked oofmatic for some talim tips since he's like, the only great talim player in 4 (and was THE only good one in 3 apparently).

Watching his vids make me mad as **** though, cause he does a bunch of **** that really doesnt work, but he somehow makes them work. Im hoping he can help me with some mixup stuff, cause WL A should realistically NEVER EVER hit anybody who knows talim.

First tourney i went to (only tourney I went to so far) i played Cass, cause i was just uncomfortable with the idea of playing Talim. I got DQ'd out of winners brackets cause i was playing matches, so i won 2 lost one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u60hGbIuxWw

and speaking of bigboi, i actually have a vid of me playing him (he's part of the ATL crew, although I live 2 hours away from ATL). It's old as dirt and pre 1.03 though.

___

Sumo, f.air earlier. Or FF later. Done.

 

[ranmaru]

Thank you Dogy, I'll practice that right away. ;3

 

[Dogysamich]

*looks up* np, but for future reference, lets keep this kinda stuff in the doc forums (unless you were talkin about DK too).

Im not too keen on the idea of takin over another forum. I've always wanted to pick up some DK myself.

CANT DO IT FOR LOW TIERS NOW CAUSE YOU DK MOTHER ****ERS ARE APPARENTLY TOO GOOD.

 

[otg]

Word I agree Dogy you're definitely right, but it's not like we as Doc users are just going to stupidly approach into a nest of DK's Bairs and Donkey Punches either.

Also Bair does **** Marth (off the stage lol). Taken WAAAAY out of context.

 

[NJzFinest]

****, DogySamich, you make me feel like playing SC4 again. Only problem is that I have absolutley no one to play here. Funny, I'm also to not that confident in Talim and picked up Cassandra lol
As that your Cassandra the video? Pretty sick stuff.

Word I agree Dogy you're definitely right, but it's not like we as Doc users are just going to stupidly approach into a nest of DK's Bairs and Donkey Punches either.

You're right, they just need to outspace them with moves with less range xD
Hmm, you probably think Doc completely destroys Ganondorf then.

Also Bair does **** Marth (off the stage lol). Taken WAAAAY out of context.

Falseries:

Bairs **** Marth, same with Uair juggles and UpB edgeguarding. Don't get hit. be a monkey. **** marth.

^^^^^^^^^^

Unless you mean DK can Uair juggle Marth while he's off the stage? lol

I mean, yeah, you main Doc, there's 0 good DK's around you (Bum doesn't play Melee), and you're still learning DK, so I can see where you're coming from. DK vs the Marios is the matchup I personally have the most experience in.

 

[otg]

Oh, for the Bairs I thought that you were talking about Doc. Doc doesn't definitely doesn't **** ganon, but I do believe it's in his advantage (55-45 maybe?). But yeah, I def don't know the DK vs. Marth matchup well, I pretty much only use him for spacies and random friendlies.

Edit:

Oh and for the record, I'm not saying that Doc > DK in this matchup. IMO its even, atleast from what I've experienced in tourney. You were just trying to make it seem as if DK's a counter or something and I completely disagree there.

 

[MEXICAN]

Ok, guess i can input my opinion now...

First, we'll start off with doc's jab game. DK can escape that, and you might even say beat it. Right when i get hit with that, i up b. I'll be in the air after the first hit of the jab, which will make the sweetspot for dk's up b much bigger. So doc jabs, i up b, he takes the twelve damage, i go floating off in the direction too far and too fast for doc to catch me in my lag. Thats beaten.

Ok, proper spacing of dk's b air, doc is not going to beat. Not with his f tilt, not with a sex kick, not with any of his moves. Dk's b air will outprioritize all of them if he spaces correctly. It goes through pills, doc's tilts, doc's smash attacks, everything.

As far as dk having a predictable approach, just..no. lol. Thats why God gave DK a second jump. I'd jump forward, look for docs movements, and then decide to go in, or retreat. Full jumping escapes the pills. And as for the pill spamming, whenever you're spamming pills, i'm charging. When its charged, i'll jump in, use it, run away, and charge again. $10 says i'll get a ko faster off of giant punches than you will on pills.

Another point, doc is only killing me with probably one move, and thats if/whenever he gets that grab to f air. Other than that, he's not killing me. I'll survive to well past 200 from a b throw, sex kick, or even d smash, and realistically he's not going to get a f smash on me. Myself, on the other hand, have plenty of KO moves at my disposal. One of DK's biggest strengths is that he has a ton of ko moves, more than most of the high tiers even. Dk's b throw, u air, f air, d smash, giant punch, b air, and up b are all great ko moves.

Dk's ko's on doc will mostly be either u throw to u air, a b air, or a giant punch. Most of mine against a doc are giant punches. lol. Doc's not exactly light, but he's no bowser either. DK's the second heaviest character in the game and has a much better recovery than doc does. Doc has a great edgeguarding game, but it doesn't work so well on DK since DK's recovery has great horizontal range. So i'd just us my up b way high and never give him that chance to get that dreaded b air off and i'd just shake him on my way down (DK has excellent aerial control during and after his up b)

I'm not saying that DK has the advantage, i'm just saying that it's a relatively even fight. Forgot whatever points i was supposed to touch on, oh well. lol. If i missed anything or you have any other questions, just ask and i'll reply asap.

oh yeah, and the d throw f air can somewhat be beaten if dk shakes out quickly enough and uses his up b. Its tough, but if the doc hesitates for even an instant, you'll escape. Throw in a good di and mindgames, and you've got yourself a chance of survival.

 

[Dogysamich]

NJz, yeah you need to hop on that SC4. I can actually teach you a few things about Talim and Cass. And yeah I'm that cass in that vid. That guy refused to block lows. However, when I got done with that match, I sat down next to my homie and he was like "***** YOU NEED TO STOP ****ING 1A'ING AFTER KD" .... I frowned in disappointment. - Twas fun though

Mexican, *nods his head* I see, i see. Thank you sir.

 

[ranmaru]

*looks up* np, but for future reference, lets keep this kinda stuff in the doc forums (unless you were talkin about DK too).

Im not too keen on the idea of takin over another forum. I've always wanted to pick up some DK myself.

CANT DO IT FOR LOW TIERS NOW CAUSE YOU DK MOTHER ****ERS ARE APPARENTLY TOO GOOD.

Yes, I was meaning Dk. I just referenced back to Doc so you know what I meant.

I wish to get my Dk better. Man I love that punch, and Dk's side B as well. ;3

 

[C 3]

Something else i wanted to tell all you DK users out there, is that there's usually a better alternative to rolling when you're in a bad situation and you're in your shield. Up b is an obvious choice in some situations when it'll hit, but if it won't, there's still something you can do. You can jump and then up b immediately. When you're in the air, the hitbox for the strong hit is much bigger and will hit them pretty much as long as they're touching you. You can jump and immediately do your up b and wait on them for a second so that they can't chase you when you need to land. When your up b is about halfway done, start moving as far away as possible and you'll be set and get away scott free. Works great against fox and other shorter characters.

What about Bair out of shield? I'm perssonally afraid to use it because I have a bad tendency to have my moves interrupted, but what do u think?

I don't particularly like that advice....First of all, you don't have to shffl your u airs. They auto-cancel on their own so there's no need to l cancel. Second of all, cg'ing is probably not the best method for adding damage/comboing. Me personally, i sh u throw, u air, regrab. Then i sh u throw, u air, u air, regrab. Then sh u throw u air, u air, and then giant punch or f air or whatever else i feel like doing...Thats imo the best way to do it. When you cg the whole time, you only add about 7 damage for each u throw and that takes a long time, and they just have that many more opportunities to escape...

I tried your version of the death combo and it won't work against an FF that realizes that the Uair after one grab has next to no stun, so they can easily jump/shine out of it. I know it's worked before, but I would rather do something that will work on everybody, no matter what skill level. I find that if you:

CG to 20 - 24%
Uthrow (or cargo Uthrow), Uair, regrab
Throw, Uair x 2-3, then Fair/Giant Punch

Works a lot better, and it will just come down to following DI. If they DI off stage, either Fsmash, Ftilt or giant punch.

Thoughts?

 

[phish-it]

DK beats fox at least 7-3 on FD, 6-4 on DL64, 6-4 on poke stad, 4-6 on BF, idk the other stages

if anyone disagrees with the DK vs fox on FD then MM me 50 dollars all FD

I thought this was interesting.

 

[C 3]

I thought this was interesting.

I find that interesting also........... I dont understand how MMing him would help that though, he's much better than pretty much everybody else.......... and what is he basing that on? yes, DK has the death combos, but to grab fox is a ***** in itself, not to mention having to b 100% efficient with death combos.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm guessing the theory is that there are fewer escape points and/or no way out of a proper DK chain grab on FD. Therefore if he gets 4 grabs he wins.

I'm curious as to how he's getting those grabs but I suppose DK can limit Fox's approaches like everyone else with cc grab and stupid crap like that. His grab range is fairly good all things considered and you could probably Bair --> grab him out of some stuff or Uair --> grab him out of full jump nairs and other high approaches (if they do that sort of thing).

I'm really just assuming he figures Fox can only mess up his approach/defense 4 times whereas DK has more leniency.

I also agree that a MM will prove nothing.

 

[C 3]

I'm guessing the theory is that there are fewer escape points and/or no way out of a proper DK chain grab on FD. Therefore if he gets 4 grabs he wins.

I'm curious as to how he's getting those grabs but I suppose DK can limit Fox's approaches like everyone else with cc grab and stupid crap like that. His grab range is fairly good all things considered and you could probably Bair --> grab him out of some stuff or Uair --> grab him out of full jump nairs and other high approaches (if they do that sort of thing).

I'm really just assuming he figures Fox can only mess up his approach/defense 4 times whereas DK has more leniency.

I also agree that a MM will prove nothing.

<3 KirbyKaze lol even though i'm still improving, I know that DK + 4 grabs on fastfallers on FD = win. Now, getting these grabs on spacies that will b gay to u and spam Nair/shine (half of those going through your shield if u try to) will b near impossible if they dont screw up. Usmash/waveshines dont help the situation either, and DK's recovery is pretty good, but not great. With all this being said, I don't see how DK can have advantage at all (if somebody can, by all means, prove me wrong, i'd love to know).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh I don't know what to think about DK.

He's such a silly character.

And, yes, generic Fox stuff is pretty good against everyone. Generic Fox stuff is pretty much gravy if they don't mess up.

 

[C 3]

Oh I don't know what to think about DK.

He's such a silly character.

And, yes, generic Fox stuff is pretty good against DK (sort of how it's good against every freaking character). Shine, shield pressure (lol DK's shield), grabs (even if they DI just be imaginative and follow through with something that's not U-air), waveshines, lasers, it's all just gravy. Nair seems somewhat dangerous though. CC grab when the opponent has a death combo guaranteed seems scarier than when they don't have a death combo guaranteed.

If by silly you mean amazing, then sure! lol CC grab against spacies is so risky though, I would personally prefer to CC Ftilt, or CC dtilt to grab or something.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I want vids of M2K's DK when he's playing good dammit.

 

[C 3]

I want vids of M2K's DK when he's playing good dammit.

I was talking to Mike about that, that would make my day, potentially month.

MEXICAN's DK = sex
Bum's DK = sex
KDJ's DK = sex
pkm's DK = sex
m2k's DK probably = sex lol

 

[MEXICAN]

What about Bair out of shield? I'm perssonally afraid to use it because I have a bad tendency to have my moves interrupted, but what do u think?



I tried your version of the death combo and it won't work against an FF that realizes that the Uair after one grab has next to no stun, so they can easily jump/shine out of it. I know it's worked before, but I would rather do something that will work on everybody, no matter what skill level. I find that if you:

CG to 20 - 24%
Uthrow (or cargo Uthrow), Uair, regrab
Throw, Uair x 2-3, then Fair/Giant Punch

Works a lot better, and it will just come down to following DI. If they DI off stage, either Fsmash, Ftilt or giant punch.

Thoughts?

The b air would be the obvious choice if they're far enough away. I was talking about when they're right on top of you, like touching you. If they're that close, then no, i wouldn't reccomend the b air.

As for my 0-death version, its still impossible to escape if you do it right. If they're jumping out of it when you're doing it, then you're not doing it right. Like i said, its all about your taste, but i'd rather rack up the damage more quickly


As for what M2K says, i think that I know DK a thousand times better than he does, and DK does not counter fox at all. Its about even on final d, and fox has the advantage everywhere else. My good friend KFC would **** his DK on final d, i'd put my $50 on it. And 1 grab does NOT always equal death. It doesn't everytime for bum, doesn't for pkmvodka, and doesn't for me. It does a good amount of the time, but in all of the DK matches you see on final d, how many of them are actually 0-deaths when they get a grab? If you really pay attention, its a pretty small percent