The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[Dark Hart]

Techskill is basics, just fast button pressing basics

 

[Juno McGrath]

****ing tech skill means nothing without mentality whats the point in pressing buttons in the correct sequence if you dont have the mindset to apply it properly in a match.

If you cant do that, congrats your basically a competitive guitar hero player.

 

[AlcyoNite]

isnt ocean like 15 atm?

 

[Lightsyde]

****ing tech skill means nothing without mentality whats the point in pressing buttons in the correct sequence if you dont have the mindset to apply it properly in a match.

If you cant do that, congrats your basically a competitive guitar hero player.

They are a lot more inseparable than you think.

Tech skill is the means by which you come to understand the game. By not being limited by your own tech skill, you free yourself into being able to do longer and more intricate combos, survive in new crazy ways, and get those key openings. You bash tech skill players too much. They understand this game in crazy ways you haven't thought of yet, even if they haven't come to top player status yet. Speed and reactions are everything in this game and they are derived out of tech skill.

Also, the "Guitar Hero" analogy is getting worn out. The rhythm game community has tons of challenging mods/variations for every game that complicate patterns, and reward quick thinking/site reading/reaction time. Also, you have no idea the kind of mindset it takes to play 100% perfect for several minutes at a time while your body and mind simultaneously become exhausted.

EDIT: And I do believe Kyle is 17 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Dr Peepee]

They are a lot more inseparable than you think.

Tech skill is the means by which you come to understand the game. By not being limited by your own tech skill, you free yourself into being able to do longer and more intricate combos, survive in new crazy ways, and get those key openings. You bash tech skill players too much. They understand this game in crazy ways you haven't thought of yet, even if they haven't come to top player status yet. Speed and reactions are everything in this game and they are derived out of tech skill.

Also, the "Guitar Hero" analogy is getting worn out. The rhythm game community has tons of challenging mods/variations for every game that complicate patterns, and reward quick thinking/site reading/reaction time. Also, you have no idea the kind of mindset it takes to play 100% perfect for several minutes at a time while your body and mind simultaneously become exhausted.

EDIT: And I do believe Kyle is 17 if I'm not mistaken.

Well, typically techy players come to have a set of base reactions and few things to look for with minimal mixups and responses to those few things in the first place, it's just that they won't mess up. It's a sad phenomenon that occurs in more players than people like to mention but it happens and makes people mad. In fact, I'd enjoy arguing that any non high-level spacie is merely what I just described, as they would be applying that technical ability much better if they understood the game better and therefore win more utilizing that technical ability well.

Tech skill, to me, is merely the means of executing ideas one has. Now, if one loses to what one calls "mindlessly techy" players, then what does this say about your own game? Could you not simply bait out bad decisions from this "mindless" player and stomp him then? Look to improve yourself before you criticize others. I didn't give advice to a soul until.....HERB 1 when I was established as the best player in NC, and that advice was very sparing and only to a few people like Rawfuls(great guy btw) that Falco dittoed me or something lol.

This game can be played at different paces, but it's safe to say that the direction the community is headed certainly favors faster gameplay and reaction time. That is not to say one has to play this way to be successful, but it's simply what people see and therefore believe is the only way. ADD probably has something to do with it too lol.

I agree though that playing a spacie(especially Fox) over the course of an entire weekend is extremely mentally exhausting though when you have so much to consider. Every day of Pound 5 I was drained by the time I went to bed and struggled to wake up the next day on time(about 11 AM to 12-2AM most days).

 

[Dorsey]

Yeah, tech skill has it's uses of COURSE. And yeah luke, a lot of tech skill is basic. I guess when I say "the basics" I was more thinking about the "bread and butter" behind this game, opposed to 'everything that's standard/basic'. tech skill can enable opportunities and facilitate the 2 main components I talked about, as well. It's them > tech skill no doubt, solely do to the fact that one can be so fine-tuned with them that you can in fact avoid the majority of tech skill opportunities, yet still have the edge... kind of thinking about mango when i say this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Basics I have always considered in terms of "what should my character be trying to do always? what are the purposes of its moves and abilities and how can I utilize them effectively? what should I be looking for in my opponent?" Keeping core character and matchup knowledge on a well-defined level helps me recall it easier as well as expand on that foundation with trickier ideas, or the "advanced stuff that everyone copies but doesn't use as well."

 

[Dorsey]

@pp- it isn't up to you to decide what the basics are. There should be some kind of system involved to rank the basics in regard to their importance, otherwise it is just as flawed as the PR.

edit:

Spoiler

this is not a serious post

 

[Divinokage]

@pp- it isn't up to you to decide what the basics are. There should be some kind of system involved to rank the basics in regard to their importance, otherwise it is just as flawed as the PR.

edit:

Spoiler

this is not a serious post

Why.. just why.. lol.

I agree with both of those things.

This is the way I see it.
You need a general strategy against a character. For example, you need to know the ins and outs of this character: what's safe on shield, what you can do off of grabs, what percentage you need to really do a strong hit.
However, after that, you need to work with that strategy around the person.

That person is a wall between you and your goal.
"And if you decide that you're going to be a wall that's standing in my way, then I have something that will open a hole in you every time! And that something... is my drill!"

Sorry too much Gurren Lagann recently.
But in all reality, figure out their habits as you have your strategy. It's easier for me as Falcon as most of my strategies revolve around getting someone to a certain percent, then uthrow->knee xD

It's never enough Gurenn Lagann, like I said before I think of opponents like just a pebble in my way. They are in my way from what I truly want.. And then when I actually fight them, well.. I just have to destroy them as fast as I possibly can which means finding the most optimal way to put him off-stage and then edgeguard him... it's not just random combos, or just random moves that I put out... that is extremely important even if it's the smash basics, in tournament you only have one chance so make that chance count. It's kill or be killed almost literally. =P

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Josh has one of the most absurdly confusing sigs ever.

I really can't make myself believe it.


oh yeah, good discussion too. CArry on

 

[Dorsey]

Why.. just why.. lol.

ahh kev knows I was messing around with him. But, I think you need to learn some respect for the World Champ of Ganon Dittos.

<--

 

[Lightsyde]

Josh has one of the most absurdly confusing sigs ever.

I really can't make myself believe it.

I looooove. :]

When I was super intuitive about smash and everything was clicking, it literally felt like the characters weren't even there and our minds were just probing into each other. It's a wonderful feeling, and one which everyone should be striving to look for if they want to be successful in my opinion.

I felt this way playing with Ali one afternoon while John and Lucas sat and watched. Electric Coolaid was the beverage of choice. Amazingly wonderful feeling, some of the best combos I've ever done. That exact sensation of there being no characters. So good.

 

[Juno McGrath]

josh is a rhythmic game anything more then pressing buttons in the correct sequence? (with your fingers, hands feet face etc)

just curious.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I looooove. :]

I'm serious! it's not like Falco's are getting more practice against Fox than the other way around. It just seems like stupid logic to me

For the record, I always felt like the matchup was even, just Fox has to work alot harder with his manuevering around falco's BS than Falco has to work to control with his BS.

 

[Lightsyde]

josh is a rhythmic game anything more then pressing buttons in the correct sequence?

just curious.

A rhythm game, by design, is of course "press these buttons now".

So is every other game.

Rhythm games exist on numerous levels too. DDR/ITG/PIU etc for example are REALLY something more. The physical aspect of the game makes it so much more intense to try to play and be good at. So much training and sweating and soreness to overcome. Just running for hours until you literally have only enough energy to drag to your car after laying on the floor for 10 minutes. IIDX/Pop'n/GH etc are supreme murder on your forearms and fingers at high level.

And then consider what it takes to hit every single note perfectly. Exhaustion, focus, rhythm, perfect technique, DETERMINATION. No one just AAA's impossibly hard songs first try. So much determination and perseverance. Every rhythm game requires so much technique that it's practically an insider thing on how to play. The same way you use the C-stick in Smash, people use the bar/speed mods. The same way you SHFFL and wavedash, people utilize the brackets and sensor placements. Foot positioning for energy conservation is huge. IIDX there is pinky scratching, towel mode, speed mods etc. Pop'n has elbow/forearm techniques. Even Guitar Hero and Rock Band have their advanced techniques for star power usage, controller mods, and different tapping methods.

This doesn't even get into learning music rotation to understand patterns or memorizing syncing for songs, which is more 10x more necessary than frame data to AAA things.

Then there's the metagame for tourney play, which involves shutting out the sound of your opponents feet and all distractions, while ghost stepping and interfering with his gameplay with your stepping (but not touching his arrows), tracking great/excellent counts in your peripheral vision while running exhausted. Also, counter picking songs and selective choosing since you can only pick a certain song once per tourney.

So to reitterate:

Is a rhythm game more than button pressing? Strictly speaking no, but neither is any game.
Is a rhythm game REALLY more than button pressing? Absolutely. The hardest games ever made.

EDIT: Bonus: To get stamina at rhythm games, you find the songs that make you the most exhausted and play them over and over. It's like playing vs Kevin on infinite time but it costs you money every few minutes and your body wears about hours before your mind does. You do that several times a week for...as long as you want stamina.

 

[Dorsey]

Idk about the hardest games ever made, that is kind of subjective in comparison to the rest of your post :>

 

[stingers]

iidx is pretty hard

 

[Dr Peepee]

@pp- it isn't up to you to decide what the basics are. There should be some kind of system involved to rank the basics in regard to their importance, otherwise it is just as flawed as the PR.

edit:

Spoiler

this is not a serious post

lmao <3

my dumb A needs disclaimers

 

[Lightsyde]

Idk about the hardest games ever made, that is kind of subjective in comparison to the rest of your post :>

Have you ever seen the VERY VERY VERY top level of rhythm games? They are absolutely unbelievable.

IIDX is on it's ~20th mix and has been out for like 15+ years. There are songs people still can't pass after 10 years+ of playing. There are songs right beneath them that a few can pass. Beneath that a few can AAA and then no one else can pass. And it trickles down from there.

 

[Dark Hart]

THE REALITYYYYYYY!!!!!


cle

 

[DJRome]

what you're proposing is true of any competitive game. that includes a variety of things such as chess, balance a ball on your finger, or competitive holding your arms out.

yes, as people, we all have to have mental stamina, and anything we do can wear us out physically. i think snap is making a different point than you're arguing against

 

[vZakat]

I don't know about rhythm being the hardest. Maybe physically. Don't make me start talking about puzzle league theory. That game literally has no skill cap (there's always room for improvement).

 

[Juno McGrath]

A rhythm game, by design, is of course "press these buttons now".

So is every other game.

I stopped reading after this because This is where this post went wrong.

I dont care how hard you have to train to play high level DDR, Flash had to train like it was a college sport to get the stamina he has.

That doesn't matter in this discussion

Melee, or any other fighting game is different, its your mind vs the other persons mind.

at the absolute highest level it feels like the characters "arent even there" to quote kevin.

A Rhythm game is different in the sense that its your ability to robitically press buttons in the correct sequence and your own stamina and focus vs that person abilty to do the same

Rhythm games require TONS of skill but its no where near the same skillset you need for melee or for any fighting game, or any racing game, or any game for that matter.

To beat someone at the absolute highest level of melee you have to know their mind almost as well as they do, you have to predict every movement, every tech, every single action that person takes against you, and react with your own.

otherwise you would have started playing melee and became one of the best in the world surely. Your one of the best DDR players I have ever seen in my life, Ive seen you do some of the hardest charts with your eyes closed

By no means am I underselling your skill in the game or the amount of love or time youve put into the game. But im just saying that melee is more of a mental battle.

ARE RHYTHM games the hardest ever made? Physically, absolutely.

Mentally. no not even close.

 

[Lightsyde]

josh is a rhythmic game anything more then pressing buttons in the correct sequence? (with your fingers, hands feet face etc)

just curious.

You asked a question.

I stopped reading after this because This is where this post went wrong.

I dont care how hard you have to train to play high level DDR, Flash had to train like it was a college sport to get the stamina he has.

That doesn't matter in this discussion.

Wait, how can my post go wrong? You asked me a question about rhythm games, which I answered in fullness. My response was unrelated to my feelings about Melee or the discussion. While they are both fiercely reactionary, Melee is of course a better versus game; it was made to be, in the sense that it is a "fighting game". They are utterly imcomparable as far as the way you interact with your opponent.

Also, I think you should try to consider that mental and physical are related. It is very difficult to play your best when you are exhausted because you become exhausted getting to your most warmed up. By building stamina you get growingly long periods of time to play you best and develop the mental aspect, of both a) playing alone to AAA things (perfect pattern recognition/reaction) and b) playing against other people who are actively trying to mess up your timing (while you are exhausted, running and nervous).

 

[vZakat]

I disagree. Strain on your body can greatly effect your concentration. If you had to run half a mile after losing a stock you would quickly find it very difficult to keep your concentration on the game. DDR and other games take a lot of "mind over matter" in a since of keeping your head together under a lot of physical stress.

You seem to be arguing a "there's no random factor (your opponent) that you have to adapt to therefor it takes no mental skill" which is untrue. If you had read all of josh's post (I'm assuming you didn't since you said you didn't) you would have read about the tourney scene and all of the different ways you have to keep your head about yourself.

In short, just because the mental aspect of the game doesn't come as much from the game itself doesn't mean that the game isn't mentally taxing. Rhythm are drastically different from fighting games and you have to look at them quite differently to compare them.

 

[stingers]

i think dylan is just saying that, it is not pvp like melee, it is like...player vs himself

 

[Lightsyde]

I disagree. Strain on your body can greatly effect your concentration. If you had to run half a mile after losing a stock you would quickly find it very difficult to keep your concentration on the game. DDR and other games take a lot of "mind over matter" in a since of keeping your head together under a lot of physical stress.

Holy ****, so much of this. That says it all. No one understands the weight of pure out exhaustion while trying to do something that amazingly complicated.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya it's pretty dumb to seperate the physical and the mental aspect.. I used to play DDR a lot and really trying to improve myself in order to complete 11 difficulty songs in ITG. It's like when you try these to push yourself.. You move your feet so fast that.. ya your legs start to burn, you are sweating like crazy... And then you have a battle with your mind, can you go on? Is it worth it to keep going? The pain is too much, i have to stop.. Just gets more and more harder. Though I never was able to break that limit, though I guess it's because I simply didn't play it enough, because the stamina required for songs like that is unheard of, especially someone like me who never used the bar to help. I've seen only live a handful of people doing the same level as me. Recognizing the technique to move swiftly and efficiently is more than just muscle memory.

 

[Lightsyde]

Ya it's pretty dumb to seperate the physical and the mental aspect.. I used to play DDR a lot and really trying to improve myself in order to complete 11 difficulty songs in ITG. It's like when you try these to push yourself.. You move your feet so fast that.. ya your legs start to burn, you are sweating like crazy... And then you have a battle with your mind, can you go on? Is it worth it to keep going? The pain is too much, i have to stop.. Just gets more and more harder. Though I never was able to break that limit, though I guess it's because I simply didn't play it enough, because the stamina required for songs like that is unheard of, especially someone like me who never used the bar to help. I've seen only live a handful of people doing the same level as me. Recognizing the technique to move swiftly and efficiently is more than just muscle memory.

Exactly. Recognition in order to move the fastest possible way is so key. Muscle memory messes you up on random/turn mods so bad.

Also Kage, just for scale, I have mid to high 99%'s on everything under 12 feet aside from 2 or 3 songs. Had a few 12s in the 97/98% range and mid 90%s on some 13's.

I know numerous people who have quadded/100% 13's+ and high 99'd 15's+. Rhythm game players are insane. haha

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think it's safe to say the two camps are on different topics at this point.

 

[Ocean]

isnt ocean like 15 atm?

I'm seventeen.

what was the catalyst for this post?

 

[Divinokage]

Exactly. Recognition in order to move the fastest possible way is so key. Muscle memory messes you up on random/turn mods so bad.

Also Kage, just for scale, I have mid to high 99%'s on everything under 12 feet aside from 2 or 3 songs. Had a few 12s in the 97/98% range and mid 90%s on some 13's.

I know numerous people who have quadded/100% 13's+ and high 99'd 15's+. Rhythm game players are insane. haha

You do that with your feet? Without the bar? =P

 

[Juno McGrath]

The mother ****ing saga continues.

 

[Lightsyde]

You do that with your feet? Without the bar? =P

Yes with my feet. I can play bar or no bar, but the better scores obviously are super high speed with bar. No one has argued bar vs no bar in the dance game community since 2002. Even then it was a pretty hilarious taboo that people cared. Scores are scores. All the 1x no bar players (even the really stalwart ones in NY and Canada) eventually switched to bar when they realized that pride was a stupid reason to handicap yourself; EVERYONE is better with the bar once they know how to use it.

Then again, you play Ganon so I'm not that surprised.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Then again, you play Ganon so I'm not that surprised.

Thats the call out

 

[Dr Peepee]

lmao oh josh with your things and such.

I like Ganon Kage you do your thing

 

[Divinokage]

It's a warrior rule to make things harder than they actually are. =P More challenge ftw. More life too in the end haha.

Edit: I probably only saw one guy in montreal capable of doing 12-13 difficulty with bar, his name was 2Fast, he was also super pro at Initial D 3. I trained with him at that, he was soooo good omg. I was 2nd best, but him.. the ****.. lol. Godly skills.

But damn if you are able to do that.. even with the bar it's mad hard... too good.

 

[Lightsyde]

That wasn't even really meant to be mean. I just meant that Kage seems to see dance games the same as Smash, which is seemingly, "this is how I do it, I'm doing it my way." The way I've seen him talk about Ganon reminds me of the way people used to talk about playing 1x no bar, in that there are difficulties and limitation inherent in your choice.

He reminds me of my buddy Jboy, in that regard. Was the best in NC, 1x no bar, for a long time before I and later everybody else caught up.

EDIT: Kage, yeah. Everybody seemed to think the bar just made all your problems go away. I'd happily put tons of money on the line for almost anyone to just grab the bar and sightread flail their way through a 13. lmao

I was probably at the height of my game in like...'05-'06? I'm still beast at Extreme (the Melee of DDR) but it'd take me a good bit to get back into shape for ITG.

I wish you guys could have seen Adam play with me back in the day. He'd be laying in a puddle after our set when I'd have no bar 99'd a set of 10's. lmao "Josh man, how are you SO good? Oh my god. Don't even make no sense."

 

[Divinokage]

That wasn't even really meant to be mean. I just meant that Kage seems to see dance games the same as Smash, which is seemingly, "this is how I do it, I'm doing it my way." The way I've seen him talk about Ganon reminds me of the way people used to talk about playing 1x no bar, in that there are difficulties and limitation inherent in your choice.

He reminds me of my buddy Jboy, in that regard. Was the best in NC, 1x no bar, for a long time before I and later everybody else caught up.

Yes but that choice is a fully conscious choice I made for myself. I know it's not the best choice but it's probably one of the most rewarding choices though! I believe if I can win a large tournament with Ganon then that automatically means I can do anything. I can also show a lot of people that anything is possible if you put your heart and soul into it, because I did. I won a large tournament at WC Canada with 60 people about, that was 3 years ago.. and then RoM 1 and 2.. I came pretty damn close to winning. Why shouldn't I be able to replicate this situation or do better..?

 

[stingers]

warriors die young