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The No-Johns Ruleset
- Thread starter KishPrime
- Start date
WHY HAS NO ONE EVER POSTED THIS BEFORE?
But yeah, random times. It's cool that you can plan on where the next lava rise height will be, though.
Now that you say it's a pattern, I suspect i've always instinctively known what it was while covering the stage, thinking back to how I generally handle it. I always thought it was something I was noticing about how it rises, but I think it was actually my subconscious brain being aware of the pattern.
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
more stages sounds fine to me, but i do question the validity of a stage that fox can wall shine practically forever on ala perfect dark.
i understand why mk1 is banned (i never played there when i was a casual, same with icicle mountian) but mk2 has always been a mystery to me. i always thought it should be legal at least in teams *shrug*
jungle japes isn't a big deal either, don't get hit by the klap trap, if you do it's your fault unless i spike you into it or something
oh and more characters than peach and puff are good on mute city, people need to learn to play there lol
meh just my $0.02
i understand why mk1 is banned (i never played there when i was a casual, same with icicle mountian) but mk2 has always been a mystery to me. i always thought it should be legal at least in teams *shrug*
jungle japes isn't a big deal either, don't get hit by the klap trap, if you do it's your fault unless i spike you into it or something
oh and more characters than peach and puff are good on mute city, people need to learn to play there lol
meh just my $0.02
erbanez
Smash Apprentice
I feel that this ruleset would be awesome in a low tier tournament too 
The barrel is not minimal in its random effects...
It randomly saves people, and can randomly kill people as well. (you try to attack or up-b after being meteored, but before you can react you've gone in the barrel and shot yourself into the bottom/side blastzone)
I've had matches decided by the barrel and its randomness.
You might not see it often because the stage is never played on, but when it is, the barrel can interfere a lot.
Massive
Smash Champion
I can honestly say that the barrel has never ruined my recovery.
If you're that far below the stage, the barrel is more of a benefit than anything since most characters have serious trouble getting back from that far down at all. It's basically just a Randall that could possibly kill you if you're too impatient to wait for the barrel to go upright.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
the standard is usually "Is the randomness more or less effectual than Peach's random turnip pulls?" hence the term "Turnip Threshold."
Niko45
Smash Master
battlefield only, thanks
ArstNeio
Smash Apprentice
I'm loving this ruleset and everything about it.
Two questions:
First, how do you think you should apply your standards to doubles? I suppose circle camping in at least the smaller stages won't be as big of a problem in doubles (I'm thinking Termina Great Bay here). Do you think some questionable stages will become acceptable, or vice versa?
Second, this is kind of semantics, but if we're not using any borderline stages, how do you strike from an even number?
Come September I'll try running a few small events at school with this ruleset; it looks promising. I've run unconventional stages before and generally players enjoyed it too
The barrel on KJ64 definitely is not random enough to cause a Turnip Threshold problem. I play with all current CPs on random during casuals, and I'll often have a good idea of where the barrel is when I'm playing. Furthermore, it's not like the barrel is an unguardable recovery option. When I die to the barrel it is usually a result of impatience or poor barrel awareness on my part.
Two questions:
First, how do you think you should apply your standards to doubles? I suppose circle camping in at least the smaller stages won't be as big of a problem in doubles (I'm thinking Termina Great Bay here). Do you think some questionable stages will become acceptable, or vice versa?
Second, this is kind of semantics, but if we're not using any borderline stages, how do you strike from an even number?
Come September I'll try running a few small events at school with this ruleset; it looks promising. I've run unconventional stages before and generally players enjoyed it too
The barrel on KJ64 definitely is not random enough to cause a Turnip Threshold problem. I play with all current CPs on random during casuals, and I'll often have a good idea of where the barrel is when I'm playing. Furthermore, it's not like the barrel is an unguardable recovery option. When I die to the barrel it is usually a result of impatience or poor barrel awareness on my part.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
And until they have, we should leave them unbanned. I think that's the point. We assume that they don't fall under the ban-criteria until proven otherwise.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
all problems would be solved if melee was mushroom kingdom 2 only.
Doser
Smash Ace
I did this for myself in December of last year, I'm not sure if anyone else has done this.
Fails no test according to the three test criteria that I listed.
Feel free to disagree if you think I'm missing something from those three criteria.
Teams-wise, I'm not going to put in the time to analyze it right now. There really isn't single-character dominance in teams most of the time, so you'd have to alter the criteria, which would take a lot of work. TO's choice.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
My main issue with a lot of stages (that are currently banned but are reconsidered here) is the issue's of over-centralizing gameplay. It can't really be proven until people play them. But the current metagame where everyone for the most part even on neutral stages are very safe. And having obstacles like walls or or walk-offs, will start the same issues that were cropping up before. Every counterpick stage will involve fox/falco (cept for brinstar/mute). Games will take longer due to players trying to abuse safe priority moves (like bair) due to protecting oneself with walls and/or retreating.
Every currently available stage usually involves Fox or Falco as well.
Heyo.
No, but seriously. They're better characters across basically all stages. I don't disagree that some of the additional stages give them an arguable amount of a larger advantage in some matchups, but some of the additional stages also give them smaller advantages in some matchups. I have seen that Falco can be pretty effective on Brinstar and Fox can be pretty effective on Mute, though they are certainly disadvantaged to Peach/Puff and perhaps a couple others.
Does it overcentralize the metagame? I really don't think you'd see much difference compared to what you see now. Yeah, it does have an effect and it probably does make Fox/Falco a bit better, but you only get 1 counterpick a round, so it's not going to change things that dramatically. The first stage is still going to matter more than anything else, just like always.
Wall camping was never really used in such a way that made it inordinately good. I don't think it's that great of a strategy - it requires you to be too predictable and limits your own options. For that reason, I don't think that these stages automatically lead to longer rounds for the reasons you suggest. However, I do think that strengthening counterpicking does lead to longer matches, because they'll go 3 instead of 2 rounds more often.
Heyo.
No, but seriously. They're better characters across basically all stages. I don't disagree that some of the additional stages give them an arguable amount of a larger advantage in some matchups, but some of the additional stages also give them smaller advantages in some matchups. I have seen that Falco can be pretty effective on Brinstar and Fox can be pretty effective on Mute, though they are certainly disadvantaged to Peach/Puff and perhaps a couple others.
Does it overcentralize the metagame? I really don't think you'd see much difference compared to what you see now. Yeah, it does have an effect and it probably does make Fox/Falco a bit better, but you only get 1 counterpick a round, so it's not going to change things that dramatically. The first stage is still going to matter more than anything else, just like always.
Wall camping was never really used in such a way that made it inordinately good. I don't think it's that great of a strategy - it requires you to be too predictable and limits your own options. For that reason, I don't think that these stages automatically lead to longer rounds for the reasons you suggest. However, I do think that strengthening counterpicking does lead to longer matches, because they'll go 3 instead of 2 rounds more often.
Also, if you're worried about hard counterpicks (with either Fox/Falco or Peach/Puff), you could always make it so you stage strike every round (removing the previously played stage from the list) and do away with counterpicking entirely.
I like the counterpicking system, but I know a lot of people are fans of the middleground concept. Including more stages, you'll get a better idea of where the middleground actually is for a matchup than if you just put in 3-5 stages.
EDIT: The problem with a stage-strike-only system is that you're effectively banning the stages around the fringes. Obviously it's an idea that appeals to some and not others.
I like the counterpicking system, but I know a lot of people are fans of the middleground concept. Including more stages, you'll get a better idea of where the middleground actually is for a matchup than if you just put in 3-5 stages.
EDIT: The problem with a stage-strike-only system is that you're effectively banning the stages around the fringes. Obviously it's an idea that appeals to some and not others.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
I actually have one question: when you say that a stage can not be repeated, you mean to invoke Dave's Stupid Rule, i.e., that you can't select a stage on which you have already won, or do you mean that the stage is unavailable to both players for the remainder of the set?
crush
Smash Master
This thread is going nowhere mods please lock/close
There is a report button if you believe this to be true, posts like these are nothing but spam and don't contribute anything to the topic.This thread is going nowhere mods please lock/close
crush
Smash Master
ArstNeio
Smash Apprentice
Perhaps it is true that more people would pick Fox/Falco on certain CPs (indeed, on many CPs), but since Kish is also advocating a no-stage-ban system, you could always pick them to a stage they aren't as good as some other characters on. If anything this promotes knowledge of how to play multiple characters, which is a skill in and of itself and also ought to be respected.
I'm not sure how more stages "over-centralizes" gameplay. If anything, isn't gameplay already over-centralized on the proper way to play on neutrals? Obviously, this way of playing won't perfectly translate over to stages that are not as similar, but by encouraging people to learn to play different ways to adjust to different stages, aren't we just de-centralizing gameplay by making it more diverse and ultimately closer to what the creators of the game intended it to be?
crush
Smash Master
fixed4yah.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Arst, when we say the metagame is overcentralized, we generally mean that it focuses on too narrow and simple a skillset. For example, when Hyrule becomes legal, the metagame becomes overcentralized due the strategy of counterpicking Fox and simply running away becoming far too powerful.
In general, adding additional stages does not overcentralize the metagame. But on certain stages strategies exist which do overcentralize the metagame, and so these stages are generally banned.
In general, adding additional stages does not overcentralize the metagame. But on certain stages strategies exist which do overcentralize the metagame, and so these stages are generally banned.
ILM
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2010
- Messages
- 218
Real talk. I would play on Niko's ruleset.
crush
Smash Master
FD only, marth or fox/falco only, nobody is allowed to play marth unless there name is crush.
my favorite ruleset^
my favorite ruleset^
Can't wait to get camped relentlessly on Battlefield.
Glad we picked the most neutral level.
Glad we picked the most neutral level.
crush
Smash Master
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
Sorry boutcha.
Rob_Gambino
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,206
Pokemon Stadium shouldn't be 0 problems. You can fall through the middle of the stage. You fall in a spot where it puts some characters like fox in a high reward/medium risk environment. What should be rewarded as great stage control and good play by setting up an infinite shine on many characters during the mountain stage/trying to avoid dying at high percent by giving you a tech option/ etc , randomly turns into a loss where the opponent did NO ACTION. It's not like pipes where if you fall through the middle you're an idiot. That's why there are blocks there showing you that you can fall through. I feel it's a pretty good stage overall, but not necessarily fit for a neutral. I don't think I could say it fails the peach turnip pull to be banned though.
Onnet really is too good for fox. Add that with the effect of cars, I'd say it fails the peach turnip pull. It could be argued that projectile/fast characters have some great spots to camp/run away high and low to run the clock.
Don't have time to talk about more stages right now, but I want to say I like that many different tournaments and TOs have different rulesets. Smash is still smash. Obviously people don't want to travel and spend loads of money to play on hyrule FFAS with items on, but I don't believe there is 1 ruleset that needs to be set in stone forever. Personally hate the way Brawl back room is trying to impose their unity ruleset.
Onnet really is too good for fox. Add that with the effect of cars, I'd say it fails the peach turnip pull. It could be argued that projectile/fast characters have some great spots to camp/run away high and low to run the clock.
Don't have time to talk about more stages right now, but I want to say I like that many different tournaments and TOs have different rulesets. Smash is still smash. Obviously people don't want to travel and spend loads of money to play on hyrule FFAS with items on, but I don't believe there is 1 ruleset that needs to be set in stone forever. Personally hate the way Brawl back room is trying to impose their unity ruleset.
crush
Smash Master
lol in competitive play people rarely fall through the middle of PS
Smashjin
Smash Ace
I actually enjoyed reading Kish's post.
I miss a bunch of these older stages too. I do think that we are getting close to narrowing the skillset and gameplay too much through neutrals.
I personally loved Pokefloats, and never had anything really against Mute City. Though I could see some flaws with Japes, Onett/Castle, and MKII. Between the walk-off stages, camping positions on Japes giving one player or the other an advantage when approaching on the right or left platform, the walls promoting camping or shine infinites with fox and such.
I feel with Mute City and Brinstar legal that Peach and Puff mains will basically get a free trip to one or the other with the ability to only ban one stage, creating a strong advantage for at least one game.
I would like to see some of these levels discussed and considered to return.
I miss a bunch of these older stages too. I do think that we are getting close to narrowing the skillset and gameplay too much through neutrals.
I personally loved Pokefloats, and never had anything really against Mute City. Though I could see some flaws with Japes, Onett/Castle, and MKII. Between the walk-off stages, camping positions on Japes giving one player or the other an advantage when approaching on the right or left platform, the walls promoting camping or shine infinites with fox and such.
I feel with Mute City and Brinstar legal that Peach and Puff mains will basically get a free trip to one or the other with the ability to only ban one stage, creating a strong advantage for at least one game.
I would like to see some of these levels discussed and considered to return.
crush
Smash Master
i think we should all just play smash 64 honestly
Smashjin
Smash Ace
crush
Smash Master
melee ruleset doesnt need more stages
we should just use PALs ruleset
we should just use PALs ruleset
ArstNeio
Smash Apprentice
Can we actually have a discussion here regarding stages, the proposed ruleset, and the rational implications it has beyond "lolno maor stage bad" or is that too much to expect out of this community? I haven't been keeping up with smashboards.
crush
Smash Master
imo we should all just play hacked melee. it has ike 13 completely neutral stages