The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[Opossum]

you’re imagining it



yeah it was massive but not enough to effect Pokemon. I mean the z moves came and went and I don’t see how the rotom dex takes influence

The Rotom Dex was 100% a direct response to Whisper. They serve the exact same purpose and are, essentially, the same character.

Yokai Watch absolutely spooked Game Freak, especially since this was right before Go brought a huge resurgence to the Pokémon franchise in the eyes of the casual public.

 

[fogbadge]

The Rotom Dex was 100% a direct response to Whisper. They serve the exact same purpose and are, essentially, the same character.

Yokai Watch absolutely spooked Game Freak, especially since this was right before Go brought a huge resurgence to the Pokémon franchise in the eyes of the casual public.

how dare you, whisper has 100 times the personality of the rotom dex in sun and moon

 

[Opossum]

how dare you, whisper has 100 times the personality of the rotom dex in sun and moon

Wait...so you're a Yokai Watch fan and you somehow DIDN'T see the Rotom Dex/Whisper parallels? Dude...

 

[fogbadge]

Wait...so you're a Yokai Watch fan and you somehow DIDN'T see the Rotom Dex/Whisper parallels? Dude...

nope, never

 

[Opossum]

nope, never

I mean...it's clearly not a coincidence that the second a monster catching series popular with the Japanese youth threatened Pokémon's foothold that Pokémon then took the concept of "Ghost that talks to the player and tells them about the monsters" from it.

Pretty cut and dry cause and effect.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean...it's clearly not a coincidence that the second a monster catching series popular with the Japanese youth threatened Pokémon's foothold that Pokémon then took the concept of "Ghost that talks to the player and tells them about the monsters" from it.

Pretty cut and dry cause and effect.

well I’m autistic I miss things

 

[chocolatejr9]

I mean...it's clearly not a coincidence that the second a monster catching series popular with the Japanese youth threatened Pokémon's foothold that Pokémon then took the concept of "Ghost that talks to the player and tells them about the monsters" from it.

Pretty cut and dry cause and effect.

No? I'm a Yo-kai Watch fan too, and I don't see the resemblance at all. I think you're just looking too deeply into it.

 

[Opossum]

No? I'm a Yo-kai Watch fan too, and I don't see the resemblance at all. I think you're just looking too deeply into it.

I'm sorry but that's genuinely just willful ignorance at that point. It's honestly clear as day.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think people do underestimate how much modern-day Nintendo games are inspired by other studios' games - It's a documented fact from the Horse**** leaks that Everybody 1 2 Switch was Jackbox inspired; Kirby's Dream Buffet has Fall Guys energy; musical levels in Mario Wonder are clearly evoking Rayman Legends; and DKC Tropical Freeze has at least two allusions to Capcom's Disney games (Scrooge's pogo with Cranky and the owl boss from Chip N' Dale). I think the real problem with Nintendo and inspiration is enitrely isolated to Nintendo's two biggest system-sellers - Mario Kart and Smash - there are many kart racers on the same level as Mario Kart and have been since the PS1, and I'd have a hard time calling any modern paid-release platform fighter worse than Smash, but Nintendo just kinda don't pay attention to those games' breakthroughs, and have no reason to - Mario Kart and Smash are huge brands of their own, bigger than their source materials, and tend to draw success from their content counts and individual characters instead of their gameplay, and a Nintendo-system-seller-content budget is something that you can't compete with, even if CTRNF came very close pre-booster course pass, and in the case of platfighters, could potentially backfire and isolate the "content doesn't matter" crowd that makes up most of the audience for a non-Smash platfighter.

 

[Quillion]

Personally I think it's a little strange to say that you like that a game is good only so that future entries in a completely different series in the same genre might get better.

Only? How does my post exclude the idea that Astro Bot is good because it's a fantastic 3D platformer on its own AND it'll motivate 3D Mario to do better?

Plus, video games aren't an essential item, so competition breeding high quality isn't as effective as one might think. If the only water company in an area produced really ****ty water, they'll still get money cause people need water. It's likely that the only way for that company to lose money is if another water company came and produced good water. But if the only video game company produced really ****ty games, people just wouldn't buy video games.

Okay, someone finally has a good counter-argument.

Video games are by no means essential, but competition still breeds high quality nonetheless. Competition in video games also breeds flourishing of genres and both creativity and variance within those genres.

I can acknowledge that competition for quality has limits in the vidya industry though; various studios trying to make the "biggest baddest game ever" so that more people will buy it has sadly caused a significant reckoning in the industry recently. Layoffs, cancelations, and delays are rampant, and even companies that don't resort to those resort to a bunch of microtransactions just to keep their studio's finances afloat.

And even then, I'd say that's more a problem with companies failing to maintain their financial health rather than a systemic issue with competition.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Only? How does my post exclude the idea that Astro Bot is good because it's a fantastic 3D platformer on its own AND it'll motivate 3D Mario to do better?



Okay, someone finally has a good counter-argument.

Video games are by no means essential, but competition still breeds high quality nonetheless. Competition in video games also breeds flourishing of genres and both creativity and variance within those genres.

I can acknowledge that competition for quality has limits in the vidya industry though; various studios trying to make the "biggest baddest game ever" so that more people will buy it has sadly caused a significant reckoning in the industry recently. Layoffs, cancelations, and delays are rampant, and even companies that don't resort to those resort to a bunch of microtransactions just to keep their studio's finances afloat.

And even then, I'd say that's more a problem with companies failing to maintain their financial health rather than a systemic issue with competition.

looks over at Microsoft's layoffs and Ubisoft's shareholder drama

Yeah... not a good time to be a video game fan...

At least there are those fine just doing their own thing, right? I see people bring up Nintendo in that regard: lots of variety in their recent titles, and I can't even remember the last real controversy they were in. Though now it's getting to a point where I can't tell if that says more about Nintendo or the current state of the industry. THAT'S something I need to get off MY chest...

 

[fogbadge]

I think people do underestimate how much modern-day Nintendo games are inspired by other studios' games - It's a documented fact from the Horse**** leaks that Everybody 1 2 Switch was Jackbox inspired; Kirby's Dream Buffet has Fall Guys energy; musical levels in Mario Wonder are clearly evoking Rayman Legends; and DKC Tropical Freeze has at least two allusions to Capcom's Disney games (Scrooge's pogo with Cranky and the owl boss from Chip N' Dale). I think the real problem with Nintendo and inspiration is enitrely isolated to Nintendo's two biggest system-sellers - Mario Kart and Smash - there are many kart racers on the same level as Mario Kart and have been since the PS1, and I'd have a hard time calling any modern paid-release platform fighter worse than Smash, but Nintendo just kinda don't pay attention to those games' breakthroughs, and have no reason to - Mario Kart and Smash are huge brands of their own, bigger than their source materials, and tend to draw success from their content counts and individual characters instead of their gameplay, and a Nintendo-system-seller-content budget is something that you can't compete with, even if CTRNF came very close pre-booster course pass, and in the case of platfighters, could potentially backfire and isolate the "content doesn't matter" crowd that makes up most of the audience for a non-Smash platfighter.

that's just how it works with any type of fiction. look at all the times star trek ripped off dr who

Video games are by no means essential, but competition still breeds high quality nonetheless. Competition in video games also breeds flourishing of genres and both creativity and variance within those genres.

I have to say that sounds like a rather romanticized image. creativity doesn't need competition to flourish. and competition can very easily bring out the worst in people

 

[Quillion]

Though now it's getting to a point where I can't tell if that says more about Nintendo or the current state of the industry. THAT'S something I need to get off MY chest...

I WANT to say it's the industry honestly. I don't think Nintendo should be validated for their poor decisions, even amidst a lot of good decisions and results.

I have to say that sounds like a rather romanticized image. creativity doesn't need competition to flourish. and competition can very easily bring out the worst in people

Creativity doesn't need competition per se, but competition does bring creativity to new heights.

And you have to be open to encountering the worst in people to be welcoming to the best. That's just a fact of life.

 

[fogbadge]

I WANT to say it's the industry honestly. I don't think Nintendo should be validated for their poor decisions, even amidst a lot of good decisions and results.



Creativity doesn't need competition per se, but competition does bring creativity to new heights.

And you have to be open to encountering the worst in people to be welcoming to the best. That's just a fact of life.

it really doesn’t. love and admiration for things make creativity flourish far more

 

[Quillion]

it really doesn’t. love and admiration for things make creativity flourish far more

Love and admiration and the idea "I could do better" aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[fogbadge]

Love and admiration and the idea "I could do better" aren't mutually exclusive.

competition doesn’t automatically make you think that

 

[Quillion]

competition doesn’t automatically make you think that

Maybe not both at the same time, but at least that's the ideal.

But I'll concede that love and admiration must play a big role in the flourishing of creativity. It needs competition for the motivation to consistently improve on what's already set down, and love and admiration to credit everything that came before AND to stop competition from bringing out the worst in people.
----
To follow up on Wario Wario Wario mentioning that franchises breaking away from Nintendo is highly unlikely, but not impossible:

For a franchise that SHOULD break away from Nintendo: EarthBound/Mother. Nintendo isn't really doing anything with that series, but Itoi's company Hobonichi has been putting out quite a bit of merch for it lately.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

For a franchise that SHOULD break away from Nintendo: EarthBound/Mother. Nintendo isn't really doing anything with that series, but Itoi's company Hobonichi has been putting out quite a bit of merch for it lately.

I don't think Nintendo are holding back a Mother 4, IIRC Itoi has explicitly said he doesn't want to do anything further with the series, Mother 3 has a pretty definitive ending (even if the "everyone dies" fan theory is dumb), and Nintendo would probably be dying for a new instalment in a franchise that's so iconic in the East and has such a cult status elsewhere. EB has basically the optimal scenario for a dead Nintendo IP, at least within realism and not considering systemic change to how IP is handled. I do think ideally EB would be 100% Itoi and/or HAL owned, but it certainly is not the series that is struggling the most from that, even when limited to just "playable in Smash and also not Ice Climber" series.

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe not both at the same time, but at least that's the ideal.

But I'll concede that love and admiration must play a big role in the flourishing of creativity. It needs competition for the motivation to consistently improve on what's already set down, and love and admiration to credit everything that came before AND to stop competition from bringing out the worst in people.

competition always brings out the worst in people

 

[Opossum]

competition always brings out the worst in people

Lack of competition brings out the worst in people's products and services.

 

[fogbadge]

Lack of competition brings out the worst in people's products and services.

I thought you were against capitalist practices

 

[Opossum]

I thought you were against capitalist practices

I am. Competition helps MITIGATE harmful capitalist practices. What you're suggesting is basically a monopoly, which is one of the worst kinds of things to have.

For a topical example: Microsoft **** the bed so badly during this console generation that Sony had no competition. Sony is now selling a mid generation console upgrade without a disk drive or stand for $700 purely because they know they have no competition.


Please understand how these things work before you claim to know anything about what I believe.

 

[fogbadge]

I am. Competition helps MITIGATE harmful capitalist practices. What you're suggesting is basically a monopoly, which is one of the worst kinds of things to have.

For a topical example: Microsoft **** the bed so badly during this console generation that Sony had no competition. Sony is now selling a mid generation console upgrade without a disk drive or stand for $700 purely because they know they have no competition.


Please understand how these things work before you claim to know anything about what I believe.

im not making any such claims. I’m saying competition brings out the worst in people and does not stimulate creativity. Competition is about being better than the rest. That’s not creativity.

 

[Quillion]

competition always brings out the worst in people

...by its lonesome. That is correct.

That is why appreciation needs to accompany it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

im not making any such claims. I’m saying competition brings out the worst in people and does not stimulate creativity. Competition is about being better than the rest. That’s not creativity.

But...
By being creative... You get the best products...

?

 

[fogbadge]

...by its lonesome. That is correct.

That is why appreciation needs to accompany it.

appreciation is incompatible with competition. competition is about a person placing themselves above everyone else and looking down on them

But...
By being creative... You get the best products...

?

just because you want to be the best doesn’t mean you can be. Creativity comes from the imagination not the desire to be better than everyone else. Besides some people’s creativity leads to terrible products

 

[Quillion]

competition is about a person placing themselves above everyone else...

This would be correct if you stopped there.

But this...

....and looking down on them

That's narcissism. That can exist in a state of technical equality or even when the person/entity in question is way behind everyone else.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I just now realized this whole discussion started because somebody called Astro Bot a good game. We went from that to debating the importance of competition in an industry that is currently going through one of it's roughest periods, where almost all the major names have some sort of thing going on.

 

[Quillion]

You know what, new(-ish) discussion.

Super Paper Mario was good. It and The Toussand Year Door are my favourites for sure. The story might not be too Mario, but the gameplay kinda is with the platforming and focus on the Big 4 Mario characters .

Underrated gem. I want a remake of it.

The way I see it, it's made of two parts that IMO don't gel together well.

Because SPM's gameplay is one of the most "main series-like" among the spin-offs, I honestly think the Sticker Star-Origami King direction could actually work better with it as opposed to a turn-based not-RPG.

Meanwhile, the OCs and multiversal plot should've been its own IP.

 

[fogbadge]

This would be correct if you stopped there.

But this...



That's narcissism. That can exist in a state of technical equality or even when the person/entity in question is way behind everyone else.

competition breeds narcissism

 

[Swamp Sensei]

competition breeds narcissism

We have literally looped.

You have very circular logic.

 

[fogbadge]

We have literally looped.

You have very circular logic.

you never hear of a vicious circle before?

 

[Quillion]

competition breeds narcissism

I'll concede that.

But again, you need to be open to the worst to be welcoming to the best.

you never hear of a vicious circle before?

See, you sound cynical to the end of being nihilistic and hopeless.

I'm cynical to the end of knowing what's wrong with the industry and fandom alike and wanting to find solutions, even if I have no power to implement them.

 

[fogbadge]

I'll concede that.

But again, you need to be open to the worst to be welcoming to the best.



See, you sound cynical to the end of being nihilistic and hopeless.

I'm cynical to the end of knowing what's wrong with the industry and fandom alike and wanting to find solutions, even if I have no power to implement them.

well I’m sorry but I can’t find the good in the thing that brought us console wars and football violence

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think something I've seen a lot with gaming is that people... kinda just don't seem to know that friendly competition is a thing? This applies to console wars of course, but also the ways people play games, and even the ways people observe the diegetic text of games.

 

[Quillion]

I think something I've seen a lot with gaming is that people... kinda just don't seem to know that friendly competition is a thing? This applies to console wars of course, but also the ways people play games, and even the ways people observe the diegetic text of games.

They neither know that friendly competition is a thing nor that constructive criticism is a thing (at large, not talking about us).

 

[chocolatejr9]

Not sure if this is exactly an "off my chest" sort of thing, but its been on my mind for awhile now so I wanted to throw it out there. Recently, I've been thinking about Sega and how strict they are with the Sonic brand these days: they refuse to acknowledge the Freedom Fighters despite the fanbase literally BEGGING them to make them canon, and just the other day it was revealed that Egmont isn't allowed to reprint Sonic the Comic specifically because Sega doesn't consider it "on brand" (yes really, I read the article). But then that got me thinking... does Nintendo have that problem too? On the one hand, they were perfectly fine with the recent Mario movie having references to Super Show, and I think Mario has even "done the Mario" in a few games. On the other hand, it took them quite awhile to figure out what to do with all the Rare-made DK stuff, and even then there's still quite a bit untouched from what I've gathered if you don't count cameos. Most of the Kongs, almost all the Animal Friends, and it apparently took the Smash Ballot to convince Nintendo to bring back the series' main villain. This is probably just a false equivalency thing (those Rare-made characters are at least video game characters with some degree of input from Nintendo if I remember correctly, and it's not like I see anybody asking for characters like Queen Rotunda or Eddie the Mean Old Yeti to become canon to the Mario games), but like I said this has been on my mind lately. Is this sort of thing just common, or am I overthinking things?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Not sure if this is exactly an "off my chest" sort of thing, but its been on my mind for awhile now so I wanted to throw it out there. Recently, I've been thinking about Sega and how strict they are with the Sonic brand these days: they refuse to acknowledge the Freedom Fighters despite the fanbase literally BEGGING them to make them canon, and just the other day it was revealed that Egmont isn't allowed to reprint Sonic the Comic specifically because Sega doesn't consider it "on brand" (yes really, I read the article). But then that got me thinking... does Nintendo have that problem too? On the one hand, they were perfectly fine with the recent Mario movie having references to Super Show, and I think Mario has even "done the Mario" in a few games. On the other hand, it took them quite awhile to figure out what to do with all the Rare-made DK stuff, and even then there's still quite a bit untouched from what I've gathered if you don't count cameos. Most of the Kongs, almost all the Animal Friends, and it apparently took the Smash Ballot to convince Nintendo to bring back the series' main villain. This is probably just a false equivalency thing (those Rare-made characters are at least video game characters with some degree of input from Nintendo if I remember correctly, and it's not like I see anybody asking for characters like Queen Rotunda or Eddie the Mean Old Yeti to become canon to the Mario games), but like I said this has been on my mind lately. Is this sort of thing just common, or am I overthinking things?

A lot of this comes down to major company's varying relationships with expanded universe media and the changing view on its value to IP's as time has gone on.

Circa the 3rd, 4th, & (somewhat) the 5th generation of gaming there was a practical logic to lending out licenses for frequent books, comics, & TV shows to generally promote the brand and expose it to those that might not otherwise be familiar with it. Given that games in that era had very limited lore/canon such media playing with the stories/characters was largely a non-issue because there wasn't that much to really mishandle. Its why you could three different animated Mario shows featuring various settings or two different Sonic cartoons that only differed from each other but contrasted with the American as well as Japanese canons. Media was money and provided it remained profitable and didn't hurt the IP it didn't matter.

As time went on though things started to change. Infamous adaptations like the Mario movie and the memetic CD-I games likely soured Nintendo on letting other companies handle their properties and with Hollywood having a... questionable history in handling video game movies, certain big developers began to turn away from letting certain parties have free reign with their properties. Sega with Sonic is a notable example as the Archie (and for a while the Fleetway) comic was successful with a loyal audience... but also became increasingly out of step with the broader series when the Japanese lore was established worldwide beginning with Sonic Adventure.

Archie Sonic adapted to that as well as it could, however it was hard to escape a sense that the Archie line was basically tolerated because it was a rare consistently profitable arm during a very shaky period for Sega. Once the Penders lawsuit occurred, Archie's mishandling of the suit became a problem, and generally the relationship between them and Sega soured, there's a decent chance the latter used all of it as an excuse to end a comic run that they were long stuck with and increasingly unenthused about. Thus, the comic line with IDW began, giving Sega and Sonic Team the kind of ground level brand control they didn't really wield in the early 90s with Archie.

Essentially as many video game companies began to strongly value brand image in all respects, stuff that didn't quite fit became less relevant and featured by them. Major regional specific media (more Western than Eastern) took a real hit because of that, with stuff like Nintendo Power comics (obviously most relevant to North American readers) feeling like something that could only thrive in a 90s time period where NOA had that much independence over such output. These days a worldwide (albeit somewhat blander) media of Mario is something more likely than wacky US comics or equally wacky Japanese manga.

 

[Perkilator]

I know kart customization is a feature that I’ve seen people want gone from Mario Kart, but honestly? If anything, I think it should be expanded upon further. You guys know how Crash Team Racing Nitro Fueled allows you to customize things like character costumes, paint jobs, stickers, etc.? That’s the level of kart customization I’d like to see Mario Kart embrace with something like a garage mode.

I understand that sounds like something that would drag character section to a crawl, which is why I thought of a way around it. You could probably use the garage mode to create a preset customization so you can select it ASAP on the character select.

 

[Quillion]

Recently, I've been thinking about Sega and how strict they are with the Sonic brand these days: they refuse to acknowledge the Freedom Fighters despite the fanbase literally BEGGING them to make them canon, and just the other day it was revealed that Egmont isn't allowed to reprint Sonic the Comic specifically because Sega doesn't consider it "on brand" (yes really, I read the article). But then that got me thinking... does Nintendo have that problem too? On the one hand, they were perfectly fine with the recent Mario movie having references to Super Show, and I think Mario has even "done the Mario" in a few games. On the other hand, it took them quite awhile to figure out what to do with all the Rare-made DK stuff, and even then there's still quite a bit untouched from what I've gathered if you don't count cameos.

I'd say at least the "early merch" stuff for Mario feels more in line with the current Mario series than the same for the current Sonic series.

I know kart customization is a feature that I’ve seen people want gone from Mario Kart, but honestly? If anything, I think it should be expanded upon further. You guys know how Crash Team Racing Nitro Fueled allows you to customize things like character costumes, paint jobs, stickers, etc.? That’s the level of kart customization I’d like to see Mario Kart embrace with something like a garage mode.

I understand that sounds like something that would drag character section to a crawl, which is why I thought of a way around it. You could probably use the garage mode to create a preset customization so you can select it ASAP on the character select.

People want customs from Kart gone? What?