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The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

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You know, there's been a lot of talk that the main Pokémon games need to slow their release schedule since they've been feeling lacking in content and/or unpolished.

Given that all of the non-Kart Mario spin-offs feel so meager nowadays, perhaps even Mario needs to cool it on spin-offs. Not to say eliminate them altogether, but maybe just prune it down to just Kart and Party, sad as that may be.
----
Speaking of Mario spin-offs, I don't understand why people care about certain ones so much (like the RPGs and even some Sports games like Golf and Strikers). They're just spin-offs that minorly tide over until the next main Mario game.

Don't get me wrong, the spin-offs are fun little arcadey experiences, but I don't understand why they need to be treated just as representative of the Mario franchise as the main games and/or need to be hyper-content-stuffed.
You do have a good point. Even if Mario is their mascot, I think he and his gang of friends can afford to take a year or two off the release schedule.

Like, it's MARIO. Do you need to constantly keep him in view of everyone nowadays? When you think of video games, Mario probably comes up very high on the list of names, no matter what age.

As for what spin-offs should remain, I concur that Mario Kart and Mario Party should stay, but if we want to keep another subseries intact, why not let Paper Mario stick around, if only for the different aesthetic?

Luigi's Mansion, Donkey Kong Country, and WarioWare, or other Mario spinoffs not starring Mario? Those are a different matter altogether, and should not be held to this standard.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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If I'm honest I don't think the issue is a glut of spin-offs, I think there's less incentive by Nintendo to actively make them as content rich as they once were, at least with the sports titles In the era of the N64 and the Gamecube, when Nintendo was struggling with a lack of third parties and overall volume in their libraries, games like Golf, Tennis, and later Baseball/Strikers were stronger releases. They were because they had to be; the hardcore fanbase that was effectively buoying up their systems likely expected some baseline level of quality, and the spin-offs often reflected that, hence why they're some of the favorite entries in the various serious.

In the late era of the Wii, when not only was the system selling big but the library was getting frequent releases (albeit much of it shovelware) that mentality seemingly changed, and outside the strong showing of World Tour on 3DS, the sports spin-offs generally fell off in terms of content. Power Tennis was repackaged with minimal Wii controls, Ultra Smash was a bare bones joke thrown out to have some sort of holiday release, and Mario Sports Superstars was a very modest packaging with horse racing thrown in to give it novelty. The Switch releases were an improvement, but the minimalist release followed by a slow drip of content in the months after demonstrated that modest budgets and mere presence in the marketplace was more critical than outright depth of content.

Once Nintendo didn't need releases like the sports spin-offs to sustain shakier libraries, the complexity and depth in them dried up.
 
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Quillion

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If I'm honest I don't think the issue is a glut of spin-offs, I think there's less incentive by Nintendo to actively make them as content rich as they once were, at least with the sports titles In the era of the N64 and the Gamecube, when Nintendo was struggling with a lack of third parties and overall volume in their libraries, games like Golf, Tennis, and later Baseball/Strikers were stronger releases. They were because they had to be; the hardcore fanbase that was effectively buoying up their systems likely expected some baseline level of quality, and the spin-offs often reflected that, hence why they're some of the favorite entries in the various serious.

In the late era of the Wii, when not only was the system selling big but the library was getting frequent releases (albeit much of it shovelware) that mentality seemingly changed, and outside the strong showing of World Tour on 3DS, the sports spin-offs generally fell off in terms of content. Power Tennis was repackaged with minimal Wii controls, Ultra Smash was a bare bones joke thrown out to have some sort of holiday release, and Mario Sports Superstars was a very modest packaging with horse racing thrown in to give it novelty. The Switch releases were an improvement, but the minimalist release followed by a slow drip of content in the months after demonstrated that modest budgets and mere presence in the marketplace was more critical than outright depth of content.

Once Nintendo didn't need releases like the sports spin-offs to sustain shakier libraries, the complexity and depth in them dried up.
Can it be that part/most of the issue is HD budgets? As we know, the leap to HD was very difficult for mid-sized studios and games (and no, it wasn't exclusive to Japan at all), and since the Mario spin-offs are supposed to be mid-sized games they would have less budget to keep up the same amount of content.

Outside of Nintendo, it seems to affect how Atlus is handling Persona, as they've started to cool it on spin-offs in favor of collabing with a whole bunch of mobile games.
 

Baysha

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I really don't like how Splatoon just has the same exact song play in the last minute of every. single. match. The music of Splatoon is so great and varied that it just feels like a waste to suddenly rip whatever song is currently playing just to play the same song right at the match's climax. I'd much rather just have them play the song that's currently playing, maybe speed it up a bit if they wanna heighten the tension. I'd even take a handful of "one minute left" songs over just the same thing over and over.
 

fogbadge

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I really don't like how Splatoon just has the same exact song play in the last minute of every. single. match. The music of Splatoon is so great and varied that it just feels like a waste to suddenly rip whatever song is currently playing just to play the same song right at the match's climax. I'd much rather just have them play the song that's currently playing, maybe speed it up a bit if they wanna heighten the tension. I'd even take a handful of "one minute left" songs over just the same thing over and over.
i dont like when they change the song in smash when there's one minute left so i sorta get ya
 

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I really don't like how Splatoon just has the same exact song play in the last minute of every. single. match. The music of Splatoon is so great and varied that it just feels like a waste to suddenly rip whatever song is currently playing just to play the same song right at the match's climax. I'd much rather just have them play the song that's currently playing, maybe speed it up a bit if they wanna heighten the tension. I'd even take a handful of "one minute left" songs over just the same thing over and over.
Doesn't that only happen with time matches? Maybe a different mode could help.
 

Demon Dragon

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I really don't like how Splatoon just has the same exact song play in the last minute of every. single. match. The music of Splatoon is so great and varied that it just feels like a waste to suddenly rip whatever song is currently playing just to play the same song right at the match's climax. I'd much rather just have them play the song that's currently playing, maybe speed it up a bit if they wanna heighten the tension. I'd even take a handful of "one minute left" songs over just the same thing over and over.
I feel the same way when I play Gen 5 of Pokémon and the epic battle music suddenly changes to something less cool just because my Pokémon is low on health. For crying out loud, the past 4 generations were able to get this right, why the sudden change?!
 

Quillion

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I really don't like how Splatoon just has the same exact song play in the last minute of every. single. match. The music of Splatoon is so great and varied that it just feels like a waste to suddenly rip whatever song is currently playing just to play the same song right at the match's climax. I'd much rather just have them play the song that's currently playing, maybe speed it up a bit if they wanna heighten the tension. I'd even take a handful of "one minute left" songs over just the same thing over and over.
I've personally been advocating for every band to have its own "Now or Never" rather than just the "main" band of the game and the idols for Splatfests.
 

Quillion

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I swear, pretty much all Zelda discourse devolves into the same "I want Zelda to be X way" and "I want Zelda to be Y way" contests.

And I say that as someone who once thought contributing to that bull was a good thing.
 
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I swear, pretty much all Zelda discourse devolves into the same "I want Zelda to be X way" and "I want Zelda to be Y way" contests.

And I say that as someone who once thought contributing to that bull was a good thing.
If people want their favorite franchise this way or that, just make fanfiction and leave the actual stories alone.
 

Diddy Kong

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I swear, pretty much all Zelda discourse devolves into the same "I want Zelda to be X way" and "I want Zelda to be Y way" contests.

And I say that as someone who once thought contributing to that bull was a good thing.
In a fairness, Zelda could simply become it's own distinct thing again instead of being the experimental franchise that it is. Not that I dislike it, but each entry rarely build up from what was established before. Which is why I like what Tears of the Kingdom is doing.
 

Quillion

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In a fairness, Zelda could simply become it's own distinct thing again instead of being the experimental franchise that it is. Not that I dislike it, but each entry rarely build up from what was established before. Which is why I like what Tears of the Kingdom is doing.
Hey, many argue that ALttP-SS was building up from the same formula to a fault.

Personally, I just think the ALttP/OoT formula reached its limit once they tried to include too many "puzzle solver" tools.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Final Fantasy and Castlevania Creators Discuss the Rise, Decline and Revival of Japanese Video Games

There's an interesting discussion with Hironobu Sakaguchi and Koji Igarashi going over the rise, decline, and comeback of the Japanese game industry, and I think it's clarified something about Nintendo to me specifically. The struggles of adapting to HD visuals, the unfamiliarity of PC development when that platform finally emerged as viable for console games, the shift by Japanese audiences to mobile vs American audiences embracing Xbox; they're all relevant in explaining both how Nintendo both avoided and had a delayed experience with that downturn.

The big N's portable line essentially always remained strong and attracted many Japanese studios that found themselves priced out of mainline consoles by the HD shift a lot of the time. That paired with the strong popularity of mobile gaming back home (to the point where Japan was where even the Vita was viable) illustrates just how incredibly deep the DS and 3DS's libraries were, even when the third party developers making games for them weren't nearly as active on Nintendo's home systems. Moreover, with no interest in porting their titles to the PC meant Nintendo could effectively maximize their games for their hardware alone.

However, its also fascinating that even though Nintendo saw (and still sees itself) as a toy maker avoiding the technological arms race of Sony/Microsoft and the initial development problems by the likes of Capcom and Square Enix in the 7th gen? Even they eventually found themselves encountering similar problems circa the Wii U; unintentionally alienating various hardcore fans via chasing imagined audiences, struggling to get games out with frequency thanks to HD costs/time, and in many ways increasingly feeling like a relic in comparison to other companies. The circumstances certainly differed, but in some ways the dark age of Nintendo circa 2012-2016 effectively was the same decline so many other Eastern companies had experienced prior until (like Capcom) it eventually got its renaissance around 2017.
 
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Quillion

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Final Fantasy and Castlevania Creators Discuss the Rise, Decline and Revival of Japanese Video Games

There's an interesting discussion with Hironobu Sakaguchi and Koji Igarashi going over the rise, decline, and comeback of the Japanese game industry, and I think it's clarified something about Nintendo to me specifically. The struggles of adapting to HD visuals, the unfamiliarity of PC development when that platform finally emerged as viable for console games, the shift by Japanese audiences to mobile vs American audiences embracing Xbox; they're all relevant in explaining both how Nintendo both avoided and had a delayed experience with that downturn.

The big N's portable line essentially always remained strong and attracted many Japanese studios that found themselves priced out of mainline consoles by the HD shift a lot of the time. That paired with the strong popularity of mobile gaming back home (to the point where Japan was where even the Vita was viable) illustrates just how incredibly deep the DS and 3DS's libraries were, even when the third party developers making games for them weren't nearly as active on Nintendo's home systems. Moreover, with no interest in porting their titles to the PC meant Nintendo could effectively maximize their games for their hardware alone.

However, its also fascinating that even though Nintendo saw (and still sees itself) as a toy maker avoiding the technological arms race of Sony/Microsoft and the initial development problems by the likes of Capcom and Square Enix in the 7th gen? Even they eventually found themselves encountering similar problems circa the Wii U; unintentionally alienating various hardcore fans via chasing imagined audiences, struggling to get games out with frequency thanks to HD costs/time, and in many ways increasingly feeling like a relic in comparison to other companies. The circumstances certainly differed, but in some ways the dark age of Nintendo circa 2012-2016 effectively was the same decline so many other Eastern companies had experienced prior until (like Capcom) it eventually got its renaissance around 2017.
Yep, Miyamoto knew it at the time too.

Nintendo's insularity also played a role, as they likely wouldn't have had to repeat those same mistakes if they had reached out to other companies to help them. Then again, not every company is willing to share their trade secrets, so who knows?
 

Diddy Kong

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Hey, many argue that ALttP-SS was building up from the same formula to a fault.

Personally, I just think the ALttP/OoT formula reached its limit once they tried to include too many "puzzle solver" tools.
Well yes, the formula could have used some upgrades and new life. But, Mario and Pokemon also use their same formulas, it's not like it's broken or anything. And it's unique too. BotW was a great new approach, but would be even better received if it kept core Zelda themes as dungeons and items and of course the weapon durability system.
 

Quillion

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Well yes, the formula could have used some upgrades and new life. But, Mario and Pokemon also use their same formulas, it's not like it's broken or anything. And it's unique too. BotW was a great new approach, but would be even better received if it kept core Zelda themes as dungeons and items and of course the weapon durability system.
Pokémon yes, but how exactly does Mario always use the same formula?

At the minimum, it ping-pongs between the open level "collect-a-thon" formula and the linear "get to the end" fomula.
 

Diddy Kong

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Pokémon yes, but how exactly does Mario always use the same formula?

At the minimum, it ping-pongs between the open level "collect-a-thon" formula and the linear "get to the end" fomula.
In general sense they're either 2D or 3D platformers relying heavily on either gimmicks or what's true and tried with NSMB. Kinda holds more water with Pokemon tho, but even the more popular Mario games follow a similar enough overall theme. Mario Kart for example definitely follows a formula. 3D platfomers are most unique but still follow a sort of collect a thon style with heavy reliance on gimmicks.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I think Zelda felt its formula creep a bit more because the series was so active for a while. After LoZ's return from hibernation in 1998, it really started pumping out games, which was wonderful but also meant that the standard tropes starting getting a little long in the tooth circa the late 2000s/early 2010s. Link Between Worlds shook things up a bit, but Breath of the Wild may have been a market necessity to essentially refresh the series.

In contrast, with Mario its notable that the series did slow down for a while, with the 2D games especially going into hibernation for almost 14 years and with the 3D entries not happening that quickly either. Heck there was nearly 10 year period (July 96 through April 2006, where one new mainline Mario was released, that being Sunshine. Nintendo essentially making up for lost time after that circa May 2006 through May 2016 and releasing so many titles (NSMB, Mario Galaxy, NSMBW, Mario Galaxy 2, NSMB2, NSMBU with Luigi U, Mario 3D Land, and Mario 3D World) did eventually lead to some perceived staleness. The fatigue of 2D platformers arguably hurt the reveal of DKC Tropical Freeze, 2D Mario only really got revitalized by Mario Maker, and Mario 3D World arguably really didn't get appreciated until the Switch release gave it the kind of breathing room away from the busy procession of games that came before it.

Both series eventually did overtly rely on their formulas, with Mario simply doing so in a much shorter time than Zelda did.
 
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Technically not a Nintendo IP, but at this rate, it might as well count...

I think Sonic OCs should be more creative than just recoloring existing characters. Like, we're talking about the entire animal kingdom to work with when designing original characters from that franchise. And who even knew what an echidna was before Knuckles was introduced, mind you?

Look at Freedom Planet and its character design, for instance. That indie classic started life as a Sonic fangame, but has since grown into its own thing. Why can't more Sonic fan artists follow in the footsteps of Sabrina DiDuro?
 

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Technically not a Nintendo IP, but at this rate, it might as well count...

I think Sonic OCs should be more creative than just recoloring existing characters. Like, we're talking about the entire animal kingdom to work with when designing original characters from that franchise. And who even knew what an echidna was before Knuckles was introduced, mind you?

Look at Freedom Planet and its character design, for instance. That indie classic started life as a Sonic fangame, but has since grown into its own thing. Why can't more Sonic fan artists follow in the footsteps of Sabrina DiDuro?
I don't really think an original IP indie game released for money is a fair comparison to fan characters created by hormonal teens.

Plus, you can find interesting animal choices for Sonic OCs - just google "Sonic OC animal" and you'll probably find some really cool designs
 
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I don't really think an original IP indie game released for money is a fair comparison to fan characters created by hormonal teens.

Plus, you can find interesting animal choices for Sonic OCs - just google "Sonic OC animal" and you'll probably find some really cool designs
Thank you for your input. I now stand corrected on both charges, and my "off my chest" opinion is now revoked.
 

RealLuigisWearPink

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I really liked the mini consoles and wish we got more of those, though I guess it would conflict with NSO.

Just out of stupid curiosity, would Nintendo be able to pay the creators of fan translations to ''officially'' release them? I know they would never do that, but it's an interesting thought. Would be the only snowball's chance in hell we see something like Another Treasure Island or Pokemon TCG 2 resurface on English NSO.

Speaking of obscure Nintendo media, I always wanted some sort of Nintendo Arcade Classics. I know there's arcade archives but I want like a physical collection like Namco does every fifteen seconds. Having all the VS. Series available in one spot would be very nice.
 
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Quillion

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In general sense they're either 2D or 3D platformers relying heavily on either gimmicks or what's true and tried with NSMB. Kinda holds more water with Pokemon tho, but even the more popular Mario games follow a similar enough overall theme. Mario Kart for example definitely follows a formula. 3D platfomers are most unique but still follow a sort of collect a thon style with heavy reliance on gimmicks.
Bruh, a platformer relying heavily on gimmicks could describe any platformer franchise.

Both series eventually did overtly rely on their formulas, with Mario simply doing so in a much shorter time than Zelda did.
TBH, I still don't really know the difference between a series being formulaic and a series just being a series.

Stray away from a series' "formula" (as vague as that term is), and the series loses its identity. Stick too close and it becomes formulaic.

Yes, I know balance exists, but I don't think anyone can really decide what that balance is.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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Just out of stupid curiosity, would Nintendo be able to pay the creators of fan translations to ''officially'' release them? I know they would never do that, but it's an interesting thought. Would be the only snowball's chance in hell we see something like Another Treasure Island or Pokemon TCG 2 resurface on English NSO.
Didn't the Pac-Man Championship Edition Famicom demake on Namco Museum Archives start as a fanmade ROM hack?
 

fogbadge

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TBH, I still don't really know the difference between a series being formulaic and a series just being a series.

Stray away from a series' "formula" (as vague as that term is), and the series loses its identity. Stick too close and it becomes formulaic.

Yes, I know balance exists, but I don't think anyone can really decide what that balance is.
ah but there's more to series' identity than just its usual gameplay formula. there's characters, recurring story elements, visuals, music styles all sorts
 

Quillion

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ah but there's more to series' identity than just its usual gameplay formula. there's characters, recurring story elements, visuals, music styles all sorts
My point still stands even when comes to the non-gameplay aspects.

Still, those elements are admittedly easier to mix up than the gameplay.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Bruh, a platformer relying heavily on gimmicks could describe any platformer franchise.



TBH, I still don't really know the difference between a series being formulaic and a series just being a series.

Stray away from a series' "formula" (as vague as that term is), and the series loses its identity. Stick too close and it becomes formulaic.

Yes, I know balance exists, but I don't think anyone can really decide what that balance is.
This is only my particular distinction, but I'd say its the difference between a brand, a form, and a formula.

Star Fox has in many ways become the former, going from rail shooter, to an RTS, to Zelda clone, and so many elements in between to the point where occasionally shooting things in space is about the only element can find in all the titles (and not much of it in Adventures).

3D Mario typically has form, always being a platformer with Mario collecting certain macguffians via power ups. However its manifested in different ways; contrasting aesthetics, linear vs. semi-linear vs. nonlinear, amount of moves Mario has, and so on. There is a common thread gong through them and you can sense an evolution, but barring direct sequels like SMG1 to SMG2, each one is taking the core platformer tools and doing something distinct with them.

The NSMB series eventually became formulaic to me because the titles eventually felt so close to each other in terms of gameplay and especially aesthetics that it became tricky to discern a stage in one game vs that of another. The 8 worlds with a bonus 9th world, constant repeating visual tropes (grass, desert, water, cliff, sky, lava, jungle, etc) and a fundamental lack of any real experimentation beyond a few new enemy types and select power-ups? It ends up creating the video game equivalent to TV dinners, you know exactly what you're getting and you're very likely not to be surprised.

I know these may seem like arbitrary distinctions and there's a whole discussion about who spin-offs fit into this or what makes up the core of a franchise, but formulaic as a concept is simply one where I know it when I see it.
 

Quillion

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This is only my particular distinction, but I'd say its the difference between a brand, a form, and a formula.

Star Fox has in many ways become the former, going from rail shooter, to an RTS, to Zelda clone, and so many elements in between to the point where occasionally shooting things in space is about the only element can find in all the titles (and not much of it in Adventures).

3D Mario typically has form, always being a platformer with Mario collecting certain macguffians via power ups. However its manifested in different ways; contrasting aesthetics, linear vs. semi-linear vs. nonlinear, amount of moves Mario has, and so on. There is a common thread gong through them and you can sense an evolution, but barring direct sequels like SMG1 to SMG2, each one is taking the core platformer tools and doing something distinct with them.

The NSMB series eventually became formulaic to me because the titles eventually felt so close to each other in terms of gameplay and especially aesthetics that it became tricky to discern a stage in one game vs that of another. The 8 worlds with a bonus 9th world, constant repeating visual tropes (grass, desert, water, cliff, sky, lava, jungle, etc) and a fundamental lack of any real experimentation beyond a few new enemy types and select power-ups? It ends up creating the video game equivalent to TV dinners, you know exactly what you're getting and you're very likely not to be surprised.

I know these may seem like arbitrary distinctions and there's a whole discussion about who spin-offs fit into this or what makes up the core of a franchise, but formulaic as a concept is simply one where I know it when I see it.
So "formulaic" really is extremely subjective and people will just tear each other apart arguing with each other whether something fits into a formula or not due to arbitrarily strict or loose criteria.
 

Quillion

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The Wild Tunic is handled so weirdly in BotW. Putting aside how it doesn't gel with the modern Link design too well, it's apparently made by the Sheikah monks, but it looks like practically nothing else made by them.

They really should have made the Wild Tunic as is be the reward for getting all the equipment slots from Hestu.
 
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fogbadge

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It's meant to be a late-game/endgame armor in the first place, so making it the Korok seed reward wouldn't be too different from getting all the shrines.
hmm i just feel like getting all the korok seeds is probably the last thing you'd do in the game. so having as useful prize for when you have run out if things to do seems a bit daft. at least this way you can use it to round up some seeds
 

Quillion

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hmm i just feel like getting all the korok seeds is probably the last thing you'd do in the game. so having as useful prize for when you have run out if things to do seems a bit daft. at least this way you can use it to round up some seeds
Meh, I'd personally want to use the Wild Tunic in at least a few (base game) shrines.

Plus making it the reward for getting Hestu's slots would connect back to the Kokiri.
 

Quillion

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I'm actually kinda hoping the voice acting will be the Mario movie's weakest point just so the industry can take steps to give actual voice actors some respect.
 
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