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The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

Poltergust

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The final character advantage I'll be discussing in this matchup is one that I wish Yoshi had in this matchup, but just doesn't. Consistent power. Link has it. All of his moves. Powerful. Consistently. Yoshi does not have this. Yoshi has burst potential from up aerial and forward smash. Up smash and neutral air are Yoshi's only really consistently powerful moves. Everything else besides up smash and neutral air deteriorate too quickly to guarantee KOs. Link can tap on your shield all day with whatever he wants and still be able to hit Yoshi with weakened moves that are capable of KOs. Link is certainly no Snake (who can KO with every single A button move in his arsenal), but Link has plenty of power covering a wide range of moves and they all have decently consistent power, even as they degenerate.
OK, this I'll have to disagree with. The only time that Yoshi should be using his u-air in this match-up is for when he KOs Link. Link CAN'T be juggled by it because his fast-fall speed is too great and he'll most likely retaliate with a d-air, which is hard to fight against unless you have PERFECT timing with your u-air. It is just not worth it.

Yes, Link is easier to hit with Yoshi's f-smash than most characters, but even so the deterioration rate of the move wouldn't matter much because then it leads to an easy gimping. Like I said before, just one n-air or d-air and Link is history. He's just too easy to gimp. And Yoshi's up-smash deteriorates at a faster rate, from what I see.

You are also forgetting a grounded Yoshi Bomb. That move would kill Link at around 150% or so.

Link actually doesn't have much killing power outside of his f-smash, f-tilt, d-air, and d-smash. All of them are easily avoidable if Yoshi sticks to the air. Link can't pressure Yoshi's shield (even though he shouldn't shield, but I'm just throwing that out there), but Yoshi can easily pressure Link's with d-airs and b-airs.

Link also has just too many laggy moves that Yoshi can capitalize on. Link whiffed an up-B? Half-charge your f-smash. Managed to shield the first hit of Link's f-smash? Dodge the second one and Yoshi Bomb. Link whiffed his d-air? ALMOST FULLY charge an f-smash. What moves does Yoshi have that Link can easily punish?

Yoshi also has a better projectile overall. Link will not win a range game. His Gale Boomerang and Bomb don't reach as far as Egg Toss, and his Arrow is too slow and easily avoidable by jumping. Link's DACUS won't be able to reach where Yoshi is, either (but it would at least close the gap). The best place for Link is medium-range, but if Yoshi is always on you it'll be impossible to consistently stay within that range.

Don't forget about Yoshi's chain-grab and follow-ups when Link is release at the edge. With all of this in mind, I just can't see this at Link's advantage. Neutral at best for him, but I believe that it is Yoshi's advantage here.
 

YoshiIslander77z

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OK, this I'll have to disagree with. The only time that Yoshi should be using his u-air in this match-up is for when he KOs Link. Link CAN'T be juggled by it because his fast-fall speed is too great and he'll most likely retaliate with a d-air, which is hard to fight against unless you have PERFECT timing with your u-air. It is just not worth it.

Yes, Link is easier to hit with Yoshi's f-smash than most characters, but even so the deterioration rate of the move wouldn't matter much because then it leads to an easy gimping. Like I said before, just one n-air or d-air and Link is history. He's just too easy to gimp. And Yoshi's up-smash deteriorates at a faster rate, from what I see.

You are also forgetting a grounded Yoshi Bomb. That move would kill Link at around 150% or so.

Link actually doesn't have much killing power outside of his f-smash, f-tilt, d-air, and d-smash. All of them are easily avoidable if Yoshi sticks to the air. Link can't pressure Yoshi's shield (even though he shouldn't shield, but I'm just throwing that out there), but Yoshi can easily pressure Link's with d-airs and b-airs.

Link also has just too many laggy moves that Yoshi can capitalize on. Link whiffed an up-B? Half-charge your f-smash. Managed to shield the first hit of Link's f-smash? Dodge the second one and Yoshi Bomb. Link whiffed his d-air? ALMOST FULLY charge an f-smash. What moves does Yoshi have that Link can easily punish?

Yoshi also has a better projectile overall. Link will not win a range game. His Gale Boomerang and Bomb don't reach as far as Egg Toss, and his Arrow is too slow and easily avoidable by jumping. Link's DACUS won't be able to reach where Yoshi is, either (but it would at least close the gap). The best place for Link is medium-range, but if Yoshi is always on you it'll be impossible to consistently stay within that range.

Don't forget about Yoshi's chain-grab and follow-ups when Link is release at the edge. With all of this in mind, I just can't see this at Link's advantage. Neutral at best for him, but I believe that it is Yoshi's advantage here.

for killing did u for get up smash and i think ive been kill with with u tilt and up air a few times, still that is 5 while yoshi has 4

... link has better projectiles then yoshi hands down
-arrow - cancel eggs, are faster (them arrow r pretty fuking fast, i dont see how slow got into ur paragraph), low lag, can be charged, and more range
-boomarang - good accuracy, good range, can approach with it, low lag, can do some wierd pushing stuff.
-bombs - can glide toss them, can lead to grab combos, are strong

when u put these projectiles together u beat yoshi's eggz ez, also eggz slighty out range boomarang but the link can walk to steps and be in range, also his projectiles can be use in all ranges. also link can out spam yoshi
 

Tidycats29

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for killing did u for get up smash and i think ive been kill with with u tilt and up air a few times, still that is 5 while yoshi has 4

... link has better projectiles then yoshi hands down
-arrow - cancel eggs, are faster (them arrow r pretty fuking fast, i dont see how slow got into ur paragraph), low lag, can be charged, and more range
-boomarang - good accuracy, good range, can approach with it, low lag, can do some wierd pushing stuff.
-bombs - can glide toss them, can lead to grab combos, are strong

when u put these projectiles together u beat yoshi's eggz ez, also eggz slighty out range boomarang but the link can walk to steps and be in range, also his projectiles can be use in all ranges. also link can out spam yoshi
egg bombing link, he can't even throw an arrow
and by the time he charges arrow you've hit him with 2 eggs so basically he can't hit you with arrow

and he can't curve the arrow so how exactly is an arrow going to cancel egg?

now eggs can be curved(not literally but you know what i mean) unlike arrow

boomerang range is not bigger than eggs

bottomline yoshi can outspam link
 

Poltergust

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for killing did u for get up smash and i think ive been kill with with u tilt and up air a few times, still that is 5 while yoshi has 4
Link's up-smash, while good for damage-racking, is not much of a kill move until around 170%. Link's u-tilt is could be a kill move, but Link is better off using that for racking damage. And u-air is NOT a kill move (why the heck is it so much weaker than Toon Link's? :dizzy:)

So, that leaves Link with 4-5 reliable kill moves (d-air, f-smash, and d-smash, f-tilt, and possibly up-B), while Yoshi has 5 reliable kill moves (up-smash, f-smash, f-air, u-air, and Yoshi Bomb) AND 2-3 gimp moves (n-air, d-air, and maybe even d-smash).

Yoshi has a much easier time killing Link, especially when it comes to gimping.
 

sasook

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Shiri, I agreed with nearly everything you said, but I want to point out a couple of things.

If Link is on a platform, he can also use the Hylian Shield to negate eggs, but he still has to be wary of the explosions sometimes. If Yoshi insists on using eggs here, he should focus on the upper or lower corners of the shield (not body shots) in order to try for shield stabs with the explosions of the eggs.
Truth be told, the Hylian Shield normally doesn't even cross most Link players' minds. It's more of a chance/for the lulz kind of thing. But if you ARE going to aim at the bottom or above it, go for the head shot. Just in case Link decides to crouch, that Hylian Shield will block it.

Link closes this space very well with short hop forward aerials, up tilts, reverse up tilts, sparingly used forward tilts, and jab swings make it very difficult for Yoshi to land closer egg tosses and grabs.
Just wanted to point out that the ftilt is usually saved as a KO move rather than as a combo move. I know you said sparingly, but I felt it needed to be made clear.

Gale boomerang can see some use here against bad spotdodges and airdodges. The small vertical knockback presents nominal options for Link to take advantage of, usually leading to double forward air slaps or that nasty nasty down aerial.
If you're referring to that small knockback when the boomerang hits at close range, instead of doing those moves, a Link will jab while they are on the ground. They'll try for a jab lock, but most players can't actually perform jab locks, so they jab once (making the opponent go into a "forced get up" position) and then proceed to execute a fully charged smash.

Close range, no lie, Link is a ho. Link wants to use downsmash here liberally and one can expect lots of jabs and up tilts.
Again, dsmash is usually saved for KOs, even though it is used every so often.

When Yoshi puts his shield up, Link has a few options at his disposal, not to shift momentum to his favor, but to position Yoshi where he'd like for a range reset. If Link wants Yoshi back into medium range, he can down air, neutral air, or back air Yoshi's shield.
He would probably shield grab, more likely, than perform an aerial. Or he'd bombard the shield with retreating projectiles so he gets back to midrange, where he is at his best.

If he wants to send Yoshi a little further, he can forward smash the shield with both hits to send Yoshi a ways away.
While in theory, this is true, and sounds fine on paper, the ending lag on the second swipe of the fsmash is pretty punishable. Link players are very cautious about using the second swipe, don't expect it every time.

I just want to remind you that you are forgetting Link's grabs! Most people tend to think that because of the lag when it misses, it's far too risky and therefore is almost never used. This is wrong. Skilled Link players never miss grabs, or at least land them often, and they really help Link's game.

OK, this I'll have to disagree with. The only time that Yoshi should be using his u-air in this match-up is for when he KOs Link. Link CAN'T be juggled by it because his fast-fall speed is too great and he'll most likely retaliate with a d-air, which is hard to fight against unless you have PERFECT timing with your u-air. It is just not worth it.
The dair is very risky to retaliate with, the truth of the matter is most Link players when falling won't use it because of the landing lag. They'll probably throw a bomb down, and use a fast fall nair, or just fast fall and airdodge.

Link actually doesn't have much killing power outside of his f-smash, f-tilt, d-air, and d-smash. All of them are easily avoidable if Yoshi sticks to the air.
You are forgetting the spin attack, utilt, and the fair. But like you said, if Yoshi sticks to the air, he should be fine.

Link whiffed an up-B? Half-charge your f-smash.
Link whiffed his d-air? ALMOST FULLY charge an f-smash. What moves does Yoshi have that Link can easily punish?
Both true, but...

Managed to shield the first hit of Link's f-smash? Dodge the second one and Yoshi Bomb.
The second slash comes out rarely because of the ending lag it has. Usually it'll just be the first slash.

for killing did u for get up smash and i think ive been kill with with u tilt and up air a few times, still that is 5 while yoshi has 4
Uair kills sometimes, not too often. It's not a commonly used move. Usmash is capable of killing, but utilt is much better than usmash for KO's primarily because of 2 reasons:

-utilt has more knockback
-usmash is used as a damage racker, not a KO move

-bombs - can glide toss them, can lead to grab combos, are strong
Sorry about being nitpicky, but technically it's called bombsliding. Link cannot glide toss in the traditional sense.

also his projectiles can be use in all ranges. also link can out spam yoshi
It's not easy to spam/camp with Link as you might think. He has to spam projectiles while consisently moving. Also, they can't be used in ALL ranges. A common misnomer is just that, but the fact is, Link cannot play long distance. Mid and short range are fine, but he is, in no way, a long ranged character.

egg bombing link, he can't even throw an arrow
and by the time he charges arrow you've hit him with 2 eggs so basically he can't hit you with arrow

and he can't curve the arrow so how exactly is an arrow going to cancel egg?

now eggs can be curved(not literally but you know what i mean) unlike arrow
Now I'm not saying it'll definitely work, but have you heard of the Double/Triple Draw? It creates a literal wall of arrows, which could definitely block the egg. Again, I'm not saying it'll block the egg for sure, I've never even tried it out against the egg, I'm just saying this wall could potentially block it.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Wow, lots of discussion. o_0 Very nice.

I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning to respond, however. I'm looking forward to it!
 

Mmac

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Wait? We're done Link already?!

While I agree on many points. I just don't see Link having any form of an advantage. I just feel that Links Weaknesses play too much in Yoshi favour, outweigh his strengths he has over Yoshi.
 

Tony_

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Link can easily win over Yoshi if Yoshi isn't using B-air half the time. Link also has Bombs, Arrows, and tons of power to boot.

So yeah, Link has the advantage overall. Bombs **** Yoshi's recovery. Arrows can block eggs.
 

Mmac

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Why does everyone bring that up that Arrows cancel out Eggs? In a realistic situation, can (Or better yet, Should) you Block the egg with an arrow? Keep in mind that probably 90% of the time, you have to Shorthop/Longhop Arrow to even block it.

Plus Link has nothing to "****" Yoshi's recovery. In fact nobody really can. Yoshi's is one of the best in survivability terms when it comes to recovery. He can probably pressure, but not destroy. If you really want to convince me that Link > Yoshi, then you going to have to try alot harder than Two Five Worded Sentences.
 

sasook

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Why does everyone bring that up that Arrows cancel out Eggs? In a realistic situation, can (Or better yet, Should) you Block the egg with an arrow? Keep in mind that probably 90% of the time, you have to Shorthop/Longhop Arrow to even block it.

Plus Link has nothing to "****" Yoshi's recovery. In fact nobody really can. Yoshi's is one of the best in survivability terms when it comes to recovery. He can probably pressure, but not destroy. If you really want to convince me that Link > Yoshi, then you going to have to try alot harder than Two Five Worded Sentences.
The only thing that would be a realistic situation in which an arrow blocks an egg is if both players are camping, or if Link uses a Double/Triple Draw.

I know Link sucks at offstage, but "in fact nobody really can" ? Um, footstools kinda ***** Yoshi. Now, I dunno anything about Yoshi, so if you guys have found a way around footstools, I retract my statement.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Yeah, we found a way around footstools on day two.

We only took that long because we were having too much fun on day one.

Anyway, Link does have one thing on Yoshi's double jump and it's rising down aerial.

Airdodge through it, I dare you.

Also, this isn't Melee; you won't be tying with it anytime soon. Sorry up air fans. D:
 

Gindler

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The only thing that would be a realistic situation in which an arrow blocks an egg is if both players are camping, or if Link uses a Double/Triple Draw.

I know Link sucks at offstage, but "in fact nobody really can" ? Um, footstools kinda ***** Yoshi. Now, I dunno anything about Yoshi, so if you guys have found a way around footstools, I retract my statement.
Ha, I love the people that say Footstool ***** yoshi. Usually when i get footstooled it's in teams, and by my own teammate. And yeah rising Dair is too good to avoid the FS :chuckle:

But yeah it's been over a week now and no one really has trouble with link unless it's on norfair where he can't get gimped.
 

Mmac

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I know Link sucks at offstage, but "in fact nobody really can" ? Um, footstools kinda ***** Yoshi. Now, I dunno anything about Yoshi, so if you guys have found a way around footstools, I retract my statement.
Footstooling is pretty much countered by...... anything.

If you airdodge or in an attack, you can't be footstooled
 

Poltergust

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Actually, I think we should get Mr. Game & Watch out of the way as soon as possible. X_X
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: How about the thread creator just decide who goes next? Easiest decision to implement, I think.
 

Mmac

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Yeah, but what's the write up of Link, and what is the ratio? We can't move on until we're done Link
 

Sharky

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I don't feel like doing a link write-up, but might I suggest that someone dig around and find info on our match-ups that we've discussed prior to this thread? Unless we want to talk about them again, it'd be a nice quick way to get more info into the OP.
 

Furbs

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lol I think we should put link on hold, just for lack of expirience i don't think many people here have much link practice LOL!! (me niether tbh), I play Gnes's link every once and a while and they're fun matches.

I never really find myself struggling too hard, but it's still tougher than a normal match. I'd say 5.5:4.5 links favor? im waaaayyy too tired to do a write up.

although link reaaaaalllyyyy screws yoshi's approach T_T.

zair, bombs, boomerang, arrows, and good tilts. its a pain to get up close :p
 

ChronoPenguin

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Im a Link, The King, and Yoshi player.
>.>

I think this should be in Links favor, even if it's neutral.
Maybe Yoshi has just enough to balance out but IMO it's like this.

You get Link off stage, you might be able to get a very early kill through edgehogging/gimping.

On stage however....Link is >.> ^.^.

Plenty of mind games to play on you, DAC is going to be a bother, considering Yoshi's an aerial character, and mis spaced attacks can well...be punished by a couple of things.

Despite how the arrow needs to be charged a bit to go all the way across FD, It's not a problem, Yoshi's Egg's aren't very productive if the opponent is at the very edge of their range.
They can make people approach...but this is Link... He just takes a couple steps forward, and throws a boomerang while Yoshi throws an egg , Yoshi's egg comes in, Spot Dodge/shield take out a bomb, Boomerang comes back, Yoshi's thrown another egg.
Link can move up some more, Throw his Boomerang again, follow up with the bomb, then rush in for a Z-air.

Link can approach Yoshi, he has the range to do so.

He's got enough Mind games, and power to get yoshi as well.
His techs are interesting and well...... even though Yoshi will consume him off stage....On stage Link well...as we know....is Link.

I'd say anywhere from Neutral to 6:4 Link... thats although from lack of experience against the two each other, and instead just knowing what both are capable of.
Although, Yoshi should be able to hit Link hard once he gets in for a while, then Link can switch the momentum, and get a hit or three off yoshi.


IMO

5.5: 4.5 Link.

...just my opinion >.>
 

Snowstalker

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Nah, I think that Link's horrendous recovery and Yoshi's chain grab make it in Yoshi's favor very slightly. Like 52:48.
 

Mmac

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Uh, he can...

I'm going to move onto the next character. I'm going to do Snake, as he is important for us to get our of the way.

There's just not enough straightforward information we have, and too much division from the members
 

ChronoPenguin

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This isn't going to work if we just keep rotating before we reach a conclusion Mmac.

That being said, Snake.
DR would be really cool to have here.
For 1 If you can pressure him to Off stage, This could be a stock.
Snake can Nade himself to get back his jump, but if your good with the F-air, U-air or N-air you can constantly keep him feeling the pain =P.

On stage..... beware of the Utilt.
Ftilt is well powerful, but I find the Utilt much more threatening.
Utilt may likely scare you off aerial approaches and thats understandable.
Try and Grab him out of his Ftilt if you can and If you can DR, I've had a friend who....has more tech skill than me and can thus DR AND DT, DT up to Snake, Dr Backwards to have an Ftilt Whiff and then come back in for his own attack.
Im not saying to do this, but with DR if you can do it well....good funz for you,


I'd say Snake is 6:4 Snakes favor.
Snake isn't exactly overwhelming but he's really...really annoying when you first go up against ......even a decent snake.

As with Snake Dancing, among with the Nades and tilt Spam, and Tech chasing with his Down throw.... you can be....well owned.
Play a bit more and you'll get caught in Snake Dancing Less, and be careful of your rolls after he Dthrows you.
 
D

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Uh, he can...

I'm going to move onto the next character. I'm going to do Snake, as he is important for us to get our of the way.

There's just not enough straightforward information we have, and too much division from the members
O? Are you sure????
 

CluelessBTD

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O? Are you sure????
I really think people need to put more thought into these chaingrabbables. For example, Bwett proved to me that Falco can't be chaingrabbed, and he's right. Can Link REALLY be chaingrabbed, or do you just think he can, Mmac? I haven't tested it, but I don't trust the list.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Chaingrabbing questions. Chaingrabbing thread. Preeze.

Now, onto...Snake, was it?

That being said, Snake (you know, the dude without nads).
DR would be really cool to have here (except forward tilt nullifies DR in this matchup).
For 1 when you can pressure him to Off stage, This is a stock.
Snake can Nade himself to get back his Up+B, but if your good with any move at all you can constantly keep him feeling the pain =P
I saw what you posted and, while I think you're approaching the matchup very objectively (which is great), you're hesitant to give Yoshi that thumbs up for guaranteed KOs offstage. When Yoshi gets Snake offstage, he only gets back when YOU SCREW UP. This bears repeating. Yoshi has guaranteed KOs on Snake offstage.

Yes, I sympathize with you on up tilt. I've seen characters hold an entire stock lead over Snake just to get up tilted into oblivion and lose because they couldn't control their urges to approach aerially. As such, you're going to want to avoid the lkasdlakjdlskadjF*CKKKKKKKKKKKKK

ICECREAMHEADACHEWOWWTF

Okay, so avoid up tilt. Grab lots. Don't dash attack, it's bad. KO offstage, and...yeah.

I'll be back in a bit. >_<
 

bigman40

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Let me correct something about DR. It should be used as a method to avoid being shield grabbed. Going straight into their face, and hoping to get an attack off is asking you to get smacked.
 

Mmac

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I really think people need to put more thought into these chaingrabbables. For example, Bwett proved to me that Falco can't be chaingrabbed, and he's right. Can Link REALLY be chaingrabbed, or do you just think he can, Mmac? I haven't tested it, but I don't trust the list.
When I grab Falco's, It's usually JUST before he hits the ground, so I don't know. Bwett might just be too slow, but I'm not sure.... Not trying to be mean or anything...

Link is pretty much the same as the rest. He's really not that hard to chaingrab. If you can grab those like Pikachu or Diddy, you should beable to Chain Link.
 
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