The New Tier List

[3mmanu3lrc]

You guys are confusing luck with variance.

If I am slightly better than player X, that doesn't mean that I beat player X every time. It means that I beat him on average more than he beats me. This is true of all games. Sometimes we have good games where we may beat someone who is better, and sometimes we have bad games where we may lose to someone worse. This isn't luck, or at least not luck caused by the game.

Also Jiggs > Fox, so a jiggs beating a fox is not luck at all

Yeah, that's right, but I'd go a little further and say that luck does not exists, what happens in the future is a consecuence of a desition you took in the past, "Luck" is just a term.

Spoiler

Please, DO NOT replay to this post, as it may lead to an off-topic discution. jk

 

[Olikus]

Yeah I dont like the word luck either. If you play worse one match and lose, doesnt imply that the other person had luck. But you can get luck in stages thoug. Like tornado, or jiggs taking a restkill on the left side of DL, and whops suddenly a big three with a stupid face decides to start to blow, and of the stage you go.

Hm, last part was allmost a poem

 

[The Star King]

You guys are confusing luck with variance.

If I am slightly better than player X, that doesn't mean that I beat player X every time. It means that I beat him on average more than he beats me. This is true of all games. Sometimes we have good games where we may beat someone who is better, and sometimes we have bad games where we may lose to someone worse. This isn't luck, or at least not luck caused by the game.

I agree. My point is, is variance in Smash 64 really usually that high? I think, for example, if a equally skilled Samus vs. Fox fight, Fox will win pretty much every time. That doesn't mean it's an impossible match-up.

Also Jiggs > Fox, so a jiggs beating a fox is not luck at all

Amen, brother.

 

[CreepinItReal]

Umm. I have to dissent. Ness has to be in the top tier. There is so much he is capable of.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Quoted directly from the smash index:

Q: Why is Ness so low on the tier list?

A: Ness dropped because his DJC isn't broken due to bad aerial hitboxes, his approach is piddly due to the same reason, he has mediocre grab range and the attacks with passable hitboxes are the ones that don't see much use for one reason or another. Overshadowing all of this is the worst aspect: his recovery, which is absurdly predictable, slow and edgeguardable to a fault by anyone half-decent.

At low-mid level play, Ness can be very good. At high level play, his good qualities go away, while several negative qualities emerge.



Edit: if you really think he is top tier, play against some of the people here, and show Ness's top tier ability. You'll soon realize that his flaws heavily out-weigh his positives.

 

[ciaza]

Umm. I have to dissent. Ness has to be in the top tier. There is so much he is capable of.

Another one!

 

[ballin4life]

I agree. My point is, is variance in Smash 64 really usually that high? I think, for example, if a equally skilled Samus vs. Fox fight, Fox will win pretty much every time. That doesn't mean it's an impossible match-up.

Every time is going a bit far. I don't think variance is super high or anything, but Samus should be able to win some percentage of the matches.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Umm. I have to dissent. Ness has to be in the top tier. There is so much he is capable of.

When I read that, my eyes went right to your post count just to find a meaning answer to the "WTF" that did pop to my mind.

Spoiler

Thanks Blue Yoshi for giving him that quoted message.

jk

 

[th3kuzinator]

Ahahaha that, and the mario vs luigi question are some of the things that just set us vets off

But, yeah read the smash index.'

You guys remember that one kid who came in and argued that Link's recovery was worse than Ness' adamantly in my thread a few months ago? I recently 5 stocked his ness with link, so I think thats whats up.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

ok?

he's bias towards smash64 and thinks brawl is better and more difficult to play.

 

[DMoogle]

Ness is top tier at low level play, IMO.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

^^ De-ja-bu
I think I've read that before...

Anyway:

Fox = Pika on Hyrule imo.

I already posted this somewhere around this forum before, but anyway...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J8c2Z64RjQ

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Ahahaha that, and the mario vs luigi question are some of the things that just set us vets off

But, yeah read the smash index.'

You guys remember that one kid who came in and argued that Link's recovery was worse than Ness' adamantly in my thread a few months ago? I recently 5 stocked his ness with link, so I think thats whats up.

uhh, all that means is that you're better than him, doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

 

[Blade689]

ness has a high capability for spacing in low level play. his jumps allow him to trick players who can't cope with the distancing, but high tier players are not only familure, they generally understand his movement a lot more, and once that's called, a ness will stumble. Ness is a great character, don't get me wrong, I love him to death. But, people think that he is powerful for the wrong reasons.

 

[asianaussie]

blade you're a bit off the mark lol

ness in low level play: u-tilt x 500 > grab, it's really not hard

the solution is to pick kirby, he can only be u-tilted 100 times or so

 

[dandan]

ness at low level is mainly grab and run out and try to dair, and that works surprisingly well versus people who cannot space really well.
the problem of beginners is that they cannot punish really well, amongst other things.

 

[BRLNK88]

Does low level play mean play among lower level smashers or characters low on the tier list?
I'm guessing the former.

 

[th3kuzinator]

uhh, all that means is that you're better than him, doesn't necessarily mean you're right.

Sarcasm, post is sarcasm >_>

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

^^ LOL

Does low level play mean play among lower level smashers or characters low on the tier list?

Low level smashers.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

I rarely see DK's u-air chain used either. I probably see more Samus f-air chains than DK u-air chains.

This tier list is supposed to be based on a certain level of play. If that level of play doesn't use a certain strategy much, then that strategy shouldn't have much weight on it.

If both characters are played at a high level (let's assume at the perfect level which by the way will NEVER happen) you would see moves being used that people would normally not use because humans are not perfect...

I reckon Fox vs. Samus is worse than Pikachu vs. Samus, on Hyrule at least.

I agree with this.

IDK Fox's lasers pwn Samus but at least Samus has a chance with gimps ... against Pika it's like wtf are you going to do?

at samus having a chance against fox: This would only work if samus was wearing the dark suit on kongo jungle...

overall, as a samus mainer, i would say that id rather face a pikachu than a fox any day. fox's speed and lasers are samus' weakness. while against a pikachu, who has a slower reaction time than samus, I feel a bit better about the odds.

 

[Surri-Sama]

overall, as a samus mainer, i would say that id rather face a pikachu than a fox any day. fox's speed and lasers are samus' weakness. while against a pikachu, who has a slower reaction time than samus, I feel a bit better about the odds.

I'll fix this come Genesis

 

[DMoogle]

If both characters are played at a high level (let's assume at the perfect level which by the way will NEVER happen) you would see moves being used that people would normally not use because humans are not perfect...

I agree, but what's your point?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

pika could win vs samus if he used uair only...>_>

 

[NixxxoN]

ness at low level is mainly grab and run out and try to dair, and that works surprisingly well versus people who cannot space really well.
the problem of beginners is that they cannot punish really well, amongst other things.

True that...
Ness dair doesnt need z-cancel and thats a huge advantage at low level play, where no one can z-cancel. He has a very quick roll and nubs roll all the time thanks to the "how to play" turorial. Also, at low level there's no edgeguard aswell, so yess ness might be top tier at low levels
However kirby is still clearly higher than ness lol

 

[BRLNK88]

True that...
Ness dair doesnt need z-cancel and thats a huge advantage at low level play, where no one can z-cancel. He has a very quick roll and nubs roll all the time thanks to the "how to play" turorial. Also, at low level there's no edgeguard aswell, so yess ness might be top tier at low levels
However kirby is still clearly higher than ness lol

nubs also don't know how to punish when you screw up, thus I'm thinking characters with good, easy kill moves would do well *cough* Kirby *cough*. I see tons of Links also do well at low level.
Other thing is when nubs try to edgeguard there's a high chance they screw it up, in the case of Ness, get hit by his body when he PK Thunders on to the stage and end up dying.

 

[BestSamusEver]

I know I'm gonna regret this but:

I have serious issues with that list. Most of them I will elaborate on in detail later, but for now:

Seems VERY biased

Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy

Any list that doesn't have Jiggly at the bottom is inherently flawed.

Samus is a skill character. Pikachu is a noob cannon. One is not necessarily better than the other.

I am totally biased too, but it's my opinion and I'm keeping it.

 

[sharksquail]

misread this part. disregard.

read this thread then come back and try too reason with us.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241670

 

[DMoogle]

I have serious issues with that list. Most of them I will elaborate on in detail later, but for now:

If you're going to disagree with a general consensus without having an established reputation (which you can obtain by posting or playing many of the members of the community), then it is IMPERATIVE to elaborate if you want to be taken seriously and avoid being ridiculed.

Seems VERY biased

How so? Link is second from very bottom, even though he's quite possibly the most popular character to play.

Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy

Given that this tier list is based on a specific level of play, that's almost impossible to avoid. Still, can you back that up with evidence?

Any list that doesn't have Jiggly at the bottom is inherently flawed.

How so?

Samus is a skill character. Pikachu is a noob cannon.

I disagree. As far as difficulty in using goes (which is not what this tier list measures, or else Yoshi would be at the bottom), I would put Samus in mid-tier and Pikachu as mid-easy tier.

One is not necessarily better than the other.

Of course not. However, as it turns out, Pikachu IS much better than Samus at the level of play that this tier list is based off of.

I am totally biased too

Probably, but it's important to be as objective as possible when evaluating something for the community.

, but it's my opinion and I'm keeping it.

Hmmm, now that's just stubborn. IMO, when new evidence is brought to light, then it's important to re-evaluate one's own opinions, and adjust accordingly.

 

[ballin4life]

A$ channeling Sklansky and busting out Bayes' Theorem

Also here's the real tier list based entirely on who I am good with

Top:
Fox

Mid:
Falcon
Pikachu
Kirby

Low:
Yoshi
Ness
DK

Bottom:
Jigglypuff
Mario
Luigi
Samus
Link

 

[th3kuzinator]

Thats good stuff. Submit that to the BRoom for consideration.

Yoshi should be higher imo

 

[ballin4life]

Back Room is too busy talking about our epic 72 team tier list ... still debating whether Kirby/Fox or Pika/Falcon is better in A tier.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

@ballin That's what BestSamusEver should've had done instead, post his own tier based on his skills.

 

[BRLNK88]

A$ channeling Sklansky and busting out Bayes' Theorem

Also here's the real tier list based entirely on who I am good with

Top:
Fox

Mid:
Falcon
Pikachu
Kirby

Low:
Yoshi
Ness
DK

Bottom:
Jigglypuff
Mario
Luigi
Samus
Link

lol, this would be my list:

Top:
Kirby
Link

High:
Falcon

Mid:
Luigi
Samus
Fox

Bottom:
Mario
DK
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Ness

 

[t3h Icy]

Here's mine based on the frequency and coolness of hats.

Top
Falcon
Mario
Luigi

High
Ness
Link
Samus
Fox

Middle
Kirby

Lower
Pikachu
Jigglypuff

Bottom
Yoshi
DK

 

[Blue Yoshi]

My online (no shorthop):

S: Jigglypuff

A: Pikachu, Falcon, Samus

B: Kirby, Ness (though for some reason people say my Ness is one of my best even though I can't djc on keyboard...)

C: Yoshi, Link,

D: DK, Fox

E: Mario, Luigi (lol no shorthop Luigi)

 

[asianaussie]

this thread is going nowhere

These are the best characters based on the 5 hours of 200% bumpers very high 30 stock ffa matches I had today

Overwhelming God Tier
Black DK
Orange Fox
Blue DK
Blue Hat Pika
Tan Weegee

Remainder Tier
Basically everything not mentioned above
Dark Samus

Samus has no kill moves in 200% FFA Tier
Normal Samus
Green Samus
Pink Samus

 

[ballin4life]

DK is super cheap in 200%. UpB automatic kill

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah but still, blue dk can lose to a good orange fox. So you should have precised that black dk is cheap.

Also a real non-biased tier list should have ness, jiggly and luigi at the top. Ness recovery is really good once mastered and jiggly and luigi have special attacks that can kill all the cast.

 

[asianaussie]

DK is super cheap in 200%. UpB automatic kill

Actually, not on Hyrule. Use Down-B or throws instead. Some interesting things I found about 200%:

Yoshi U-Tilt KOs if you are standing on a Dreamland platform
Electrode explosion at 0% is not an instant kill on most characters
Fire Fox is still weak as hell
Pikachu can still do retardedly good chains with U-Tilt and U-Air
Falcon punch at 0% is not an instant kill unless you're on Dreamland or near a blast line...wtf
Mario/Luigi D-Airs become Kirby D-Air :\
Kirby's U-Air...lol

 

[The Star King]

Back Room is too busy talking about our epic 72 team tier list ... still debating whether Kirby/Fox or Pika/Falcon is better in A tier.

Lol what a troll