The New Tier List

[Surri-Sama]

I would say pika's worst matchup is fox on hyrule.

This is how i feel.

 

[Olikus]

I'm a Falcon main and I don't feel dreamland's boost is so significant. Falcon gets easily gimped. But maybe I'm not good enough to judge...

I would say pika's worst matchup is fox on hyrule, because fox can always run away and there is the tent (aka fox's playground).
And obviously fox doesn't suffer too much from his poor recovery.

I still think its his best stage by far even if he can get gimped. Because of his onstage boost.

Pikas worst matchup is probably fox on hyrule yeah. But not impossible for pika at all.

That dirty rat!

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

This is how i feel.

What I believe also, I believe this is Pikachu's only even matchup

Spoiler

Hey look Pikachu is just like MK

 

[ballin4life]

I'm a Falcon main and I don't feel dreamland's boost is so significant. Falcon gets easily gimped. But maybe I'm not good enough to judge...

I would say pika's worst matchup is fox on hyrule, because fox can always run away and there is the tent (aka fox's playground).
And obviously fox doesn't suffer too much from his poor recovery.

In Pika vs Fox, Pika is better in the tent area. I mean, they are both really good, but Pika is better.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

^^^ This
That's why he's in that place in the tier list.

But it doesn't mean this is not true.

What I believe also, I believe this is Pikachu's only even matchup

 

[Olikus]

fox vs pika on hyrule is pretty even but i still think pika has the advantage.

 

[Sangoku]

Did I say fox had the advantage? =p

I only said it was the worst for pikachu.

Concerning the tent I thought fox's boost was slightly bigger than pika's. I guess I was wrong ^^.

 

[NixxxoN]

Pika has such a good aerial movement that you can dodge any projectile without trouble... the "run away to the tent and shoot lasers" thing simply doesnt work

 

[AtotheZ]

Why do people consider pika v samus such a bad matchup?

 

[t3h Icy]

Matchups are based on characters, not on an specific player's skills, think of it as if there're two players with the same level playing against each other.

It amazes me how many people don't understand this.

 

[ballin4life]

Why do people consider pika v samus such a bad matchup?

Pikachu can actually edgeguard Samus pretty well. Samus can't gimp Pika. Pika has the speed advantage. Pika can sometimes combo Samus with uairs (better than most characters can combo against Samus).

 

[Gammelnorsk]

if pika spams double uair with short hops it makes it really annoying for samus lol

u can get stuck in ur shield and it sucks even more if they can di ur up b

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Samus simply doesn't have a chance against S tiers.

 

[DMoogle]

Samus simply doesn't have a chance against S tiers.

I've beaten people around my skill level (which I think is arguably the skill level this tier is based on) with Samus before vs. their S tier characters.

The chance of winning is low, but it's definitely there.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

It amazes me how many people don't understand this.

it just doesn't work like that though. if two players are of the same skill level, characters who are easier to play with will be played better by the person in question, because they will make fewer mistakes. fox vs mario with players of equal skill will go as follows: as soon as fox makes any sort of mistake, which is much more likely than the mario making a mistake, he will be comboed to oblivion or gimped. Yet we all accept that mario is a worse character than fox. This whole "players of equal skill" is all subject to to one's own interpretation in my opinion.

 

[Mahie]

I've beaten people around my skill level (which I think is arguably the skill level this tier is based on) with Samus before vs. their S tier characters.

The chance of winning is low, but it's definitely there.

I agree, and that's even more true against Fox than it is against Pikachu. Even in 1-9 match-ups you're supposed to have a winning rate of 10%. That's far from non-existent.

 

[Mahie]

it just doesn't work like that though. if two players are of the same skill level, characters who are easier to play with will be played better by the person in question, because they will make fewer mistakes. fox vs mario with players of equal skill will go as follows: as soon as fox makes any sort of mistake, which is much more likely than the mario making a mistake, he will be comboed to oblivion or gimped. Yet we all accept that mario is a worse character than fox. This whole "players of equal skill" is all subject to to one's own interpretation in my opinion.

You have to take into account than if the Fox isn't perfect and makes errors, the Mario won't punish perfectly each error. That's what "Equal skill" mean.

 

[The Star King]

it just doesn't work like that though. if two players are of the same skill level, characters who are easier to play with will be played better by the person in question, because they will make fewer mistakes. fox vs mario with players of equal skill will go as follows: as soon as fox makes any sort of mistake, which is much more likely than the mario making a mistake, he will be comboed to oblivion or gimped. Yet we all accept that mario is a worse character than fox. This whole "players of equal skill" is all subject to to one's own interpretation in my opinion.

Equal skill at a high level, not just equal skill. The "easier to play" factor applies much more to medium/low levels of play (and I think Fox is easier than Mario anyways lol)

I agree, and that's even more true against Fox than it is against Pikachu. Even in 1-9 match-ups you're supposed to have a winning rate of 10%. That's far from non-existent.

I don't think that's how ratios work, but the match-up ratios that smashers like to use are super vague and arbitrary anyways.

 

[Mahie]

I don't think that's how ratios work, but the match-up ratios that smashers like to use are super vague and arbitrary anyways.

Well I suppose that a 4-6 Matchups means that for 10 matches, one will win 4 and the other one will win 6.

Or at least I've always read it that way.

 

[The Star King]

That seems to be the popular opinion, but I've never really liked that. To me that implies that the outcome of Smash64 matches in general have high variance. I don't think the outcome of games in 64 are that random. IMO, if, for example, two equally skilled players fight each other in a match-up where one has a large advantage, the one with the advantage will win every time, just maybe not by much. What if an equally skilled Pikachu and Kirby fight, and Fox barely wins every time? It's an 100-0 match-up, even though the victories were slight.

I like the >> thing a lot more than ratios. In my mind, a > means that character will win by one stock on average, a >> means two stocks on average, etc.

 

[Mahie]

That seems to be the popular opinion, but I've never really liked that. To me that implies that the outcome of Smash64 matches in general have high variance. I don't think the outcome of games in 64 are that random. IMO, if, for example, two equally skilled players fight each other in a match-up where one has a large advantage, the one with the advantage will win every time, just maybe not by much. What if an equally skilled Pikachu and Kirby fight, and Fox barely wins every time? It's an 100-0 match-up, even though the victories were slight.

I like the >> thing a lot more than ratios. In my mind, a > means that character will win by one stock on average, a >> means two stocks on average, etc.

That makes no sense because some match ups would be impossible to win, and there are no such match ups. Also, it makes sense that randomness is involved when it's two equally skilled players. If skill is not an issue, then it has to be luck.

 

[ballin4life]

It depends on what you mean by randomness. It doesn't necessarily have to mean something outside of the players themselves. For example, one of the "random" factors that might make the disadvantaged character win is if the opponent happens to have a bad day.

 

[asianaussie]

It's the relative chance that a high-level player using that character has to beat an equally skilled player using the other character.

In a coin flip, it's 50/50 heads/tails, but that doesn't mean out of ten flips you get 5 heads. It's basically the overall advantage/disadvantage a character naturally has.

 

[DMoogle]

That seems to be the popular opinion, but I've never really liked that. To me that implies that the outcome of Smash64 matches in general have high variance. I don't think the outcome of games in 64 are that random. IMO, if, for example, two equally skilled players fight each other in a match-up where one has a large advantage, the one with the advantage will win every time, just maybe not by much. What if an equally skilled Pikachu and Kirby fight, and Fox barely wins every time? It's an 100-0 match-up, even though the victories were slight.

Hmmm, how about 60:40 isn't win match:lose match, but (simplified) 3 stocks for every 2 stocks? That sounds more accurate.

Then we need to find out standard deviation. Ness and Falcon match-up standard deviation for the win!

 

[Battlecow]

So are we gonna change the weegee-jiggs matchup to >>?

 

[Olikus]

So are we gonna change the weegee-jiggs matchup to >>?

YES!

At least I think so, when you see how many that are >, weggee-jiggs is a safe >>.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

You have to take into account than if the Fox isn't perfect and makes errors, the Mario won't punish perfectly each error. That's what "Equal skill" mean.

True enough, but what if it is easier to screw up with a character than it is to screw up with another in the punishment? I'm not saying that they will succeed 100% of the time, but can you see what I'm saying?

Also, about people not screwing up at a higher level of play, I don't believe that's true. Mistakes are, most of the time, forced by an opponent. If the person you are playing with is even with you in skill, then you will be forcing each other into making a lot of mistakes. When you are playing with a character who is easier to play with you might not be making as many mistakes, as there is much less that can go wrong.

 

[The Star King]

That makes no sense because some match ups would be impossible to win, and there are no such match ups. Also, it makes sense that randomness is involved when it's two equally skilled players. If skill is not an issue, then it has to be luck.

Um, no? If you're playing a match-up at a disadvantage, you have to make up for it with better skill/knowledge, not depend on luck, LOL.

 

[SilentSlayers]

Semi-off topic, but I seem to ALWAYS agree with what The Star King says. 99.99% of his posts are exactly what's on my mind, so I never have to post LOL.

 

[th3kuzinator]

King Star can read minds, its why hes in A-Tier.

Luigi >> Jiggs please

Fox = Pika on Hyrule imo.

 

[Mahie]

Um, no? If you're playing a match-up at a disadvantage, you have to make up for it with better skill/knowledge, not depend on luck, LOL.

You can't make up for it with better skill if the assumption is that both have the very same skill. That's just not how it works.

 

[ciaza]

I have to agree with Mahie. In theory, a jiggs who beats a fox would have to be called luck if both players are of the same skill.

 

[Mahie]

I have to agree with Mahie. In theory, a jiggs who beats a fox would have to be called luck if both players are of the same skill.

Yeah. That's why I think the X - Y Matchup means that there is an X winning rate and and Y losing rate for the character.

 

[ciaza]

That's how I've always thought of it when reading the chart too, I think aa summed it up best though.

 

[The Star King]

Semi-off topic, but I seem to ALWAYS agree with what The Star King says. 99.99% of his posts are exactly what's on my mind, so I never have to post LOL.

And here I thought I have strange opinions.

You can't make up for it with better skill if the assumption is that both have the very same skill. That's just not how it works.

Yeah, I know. But my problem with your post was that you said "some match-ups would be impossible". No, because you can make up for the disadvantage with skill/knowledge, so it's not impossible. Yes, if two players with equal skill played each other, and if one of them had a significant match-up advantage, that player should win pretty consistently. What's wrong with that? It doesn't make the match-up impossible >_>

I have to agree with Mahie. In theory, a jiggs who beats a fox would have to be called luck if both players are of the same skill.

Except it wouldn't happen unless the Fox is inconsistent.

I don't think luck is as big of a factor in competitive play as you guys seem to do >_>

 

[Mahie]

And here I thought I have strange opinions.



Yeah, I know. But my problem with your post was that you said "some match-ups would be impossible". No, because you can make up for the disadvantage with skill/knowledge, so it's not impossible. Yes, if two players with equal skill played each other, and if one of them had a significant match-up advantage, that player should win pretty consistently. What's wrong with that? It doesn't make the match-up impossible >_>



Except it wouldn't happen unless the Fox is inconsistent.

I don't think luck is as big of a factor in competitive play as you guys seem to do >_>

I said that some match-ups would be impossible with your theory of " > means you win with 1 stock and >> means you win with 2 stocks", but that's only because I didn't read carefully enough, as you did mention " on average". I still don't agree but it makes much more sense. So my bad about the "impossible match-ups".

You can be lucky if the opponent makes an error (That you didn't deliberately provoke) . That's luck. So obviously, Luck is a factor. You can also be lucky with tornadoes, and get a kill out of a set-up that wouldn't allow a finisher usually.

Luck isn't as important in SSB64 as it is in the other smash games but it's still there in my opinion. I'm not even taking into account the external factors : pad breaking mid-game, sudden pain, etc. Those are based upon luck as well.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Luigi >> Jiggs please

Fox = Pika on Hyrule imo.

I agree with that, even tier is not stage based, but wtf.

 

[ballin4life]

You guys are confusing luck with variance.

If I am slightly better than player X, that doesn't mean that I beat player X every time. It means that I beat him on average more than he beats me. This is true of all games. Sometimes we have good games where we may beat someone who is better, and sometimes we have bad games where we may lose to someone worse. This isn't luck, or at least not luck caused by the game.

Also Jiggs > Fox, so a jiggs beating a fox is not luck at all

 

[ciaza]

You guys are confusing luck with variance.

If I am slightly better than player X, that doesn't mean that I beat player X every time. It means that I beat him on average more than he beats me. This is true of all games. Sometimes we have good games where we may beat someone who is better, and sometimes we have bad games where we may lose to someone worse. This isn't luck, or at least not luck caused by the game.

I think I get it now. Good thing we have at least one Maths buff on the forums lol.

Also Jiggs > Fox, so a jiggs beating a fox is not luck at all

MADNESS

 

[Frogles]

Luigi >> Jiggs please

yes

Fox = Pika on Hyrule imo.

NO. chance of being gimped is lower on hyrule but its still there and pika still has his crazy aerial speed, stupid hitboxes, huge grab, and he can up b across the stage to escape a chain.