The New Tier List

[Olikus]

The fact that Samus can pretty much only ever be defensive IMO puts her on the bottom.
Link may suck at approaching too, but his projectiles also double in the purpose of defending against opponents, and allowing him to approach. Samus doesn't really have anything like that.
She also lacks any potential for long combos.

Even if samus isnt the most aggressive player and lacks the sickest combos, makes her diferent to play rather than automaticly worst caracther imo. Sure combos, are so inportant in this game, so that makes her one of the worst caracthers just that point. But you have to play diferent and smart in an other way. If she needs to wait and punish rather than attack, attack and attack thats just another way of being good.

when you are at the highest level of play, mindgames and spacing is the biggest thing that makes a different between players, since on that level all have excellent tech skills. And with perfect spacing and clever mindgames, samus can be a beast.

You can be aggressive as Samus, just not on Hyrule.


On another topic : Fox and Kirby should be together in S tiers, and Pikachu should have his own SS tiers.

Agree.

Pikachu is too much better than fox to bee in the same tier. And now that kongo and dreamland gets neutral and not only hyrule, fox is not in a tier over kirby any longer imo.

 

[ciaza]

when you are at the highest level of play, mindgames and spacing is the biggest thing that makes a different between players, since on that level all have excellent tech skills. And with perfect spacing and clever mindgames, samus can be a beast.

At high level play perfect spacing and mindgames makes anyone a beast, not just Samus. This puts Samus on the same level as any other character, but then you have to deduct the fact that she cannot combo and generally has to maintain a defensive style of play.

To re-iterate my earlier point this isn't to say she's bad, you're right when you say that the game is mostly about who can space better, but you have to factor in everything when making a tier list.

 

[TANK64]

What Mahie said (in his 2nd line).

 

[blaze3927]

At high level play perfect spacing and mindgames makes anyone a beast, not just Samus. This puts Samus on the same level as any other character, but then you have to deduct the fact that she cannot combo and generally has to maintain a defensive style of play.

^^100this
10 char

@ mahie 2nd line.

pikachu on dreamland in his own tier, probably, but i cant see it being that good of a matchup on hyrule vs fox.

 

[Olikus]

^^100this
10 char

@ mahie 2nd line.

pikachu on dreamland in his own tier, probably, but i cant see it being that good of a matchup on hyrule vs fox.

Well lets put the 3 neutrals. Dreamland pikachu has massive advantage over fox. On kongo advantage. On hyrule, pretty even. And if we allso add peach, pika has a huge advantage.

I would say Pika is in his own tier.

And at the samus discussion. I dont see playing defensive as something that makes her worse. Its just another aprochig. The fact that she cant combo well is ofc a big downside , but DK is probalby the next worst caracther on combos but he is still in mid tier. So that in itself isnt a good enough argument alone.

 

[Mahie]

^^100this
10 char

@ mahie 2nd line.

pikachu on dreamland in his own tier, probably, but i cant see it being that good of a matchup on hyrule vs fox.

Take into account that the Pikachu vs Fox matchup is only ONE of the several match ups for each of those characters. Their position in the tiers list is irrelevant ( or rather, it is relevant, but not completely dependent) to how well they do against each other.
And I still believe Pikachu has the advantage on Hyrule, although it's a slight one, and that it might be a little easier for Fox on Kongo Jungle. This is probably biased though.

 

[t3h Icy]

It doesn't matter how good Samus is, she's still the worst character.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

At high level play perfect spacing and mindgames makes anyone a beast, not just Samus. This puts Samus on the same level as any other character, but then you have to deduct the fact that she cannot combo and generally has to maintain a defensive style of play.

To re-iterate my earlier point this isn't to say she's bad, you're right when you say that the game is mostly about who can space better, but you have to factor in everything when making a tier list.

Perhaps, but what I'm trying to say is that it is MUCH easier to space with samus than it is with a lot of the rest of the cast. I find that this counts for a lot, as nobody has PERFECT spacing; people mess up. I find it's much harder to mess up with samus, which means that people won't be able to get inside as much to actually perform combos on her. The other characters will just find themselves getting frustrated and accumulate percent while constantly getting denied the approach.

But then this could just be me getting butthurt about losing to a really good samus, who knows?

 

[The Star King]

If you are good enough, you can dodge links projectiles all day.

Maybe if the Link is bad, and doesn't know how to create openings with his projectiles. And you gain no advantage from "dodging them all day" and only risk getting hit, so why would you do it unless you were trying to time them out (LOL @ timing Link out)?

 

[ciaza]

And at the samus discussion. I dont see playing defensive as something that makes her worse. Its just another aprochig. The fact that she cant combo well is ofc a big downside , but DK is probalby the next worst caracther on combos but he is still in mid tier. So that in itself isnt a good enough argument alone.

Defensive play doesn't make her worse, in fact it's the opposite, it's her best playstyle.

DK has insanely good grabs which can make him a gimping master. He also has a few combos, most notably plat drop uair>uair. Granted he doesn't have as much as other characters but still much much more than Samus.

Perhaps, but what I'm trying to say is that it is MUCH easier to space with samus than it is with a lot of the rest of the cast. I find that this counts for a lot, as nobody has PERFECT spacing; people mess up. I find it's much harder to mess up with samus, which means that people won't be able to get inside as much to actually perform combos on her. The other characters will just find themselves getting frustrated and accumulate percent while constantly getting denied the approach.

But then this could just be me getting butthurt about losing to a really good samus, who knows?

I'd agree that Samus is easier to space with and there is less chance of messing up. The problem is that at higher level play, it's expected that the characters are being played by high-level players that can space the character to a good degree too. I can't see say a Link getting always denied the approach by Samus.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Defensive play doesn't make her worse, in fact it's the opposite, it's her best playstyle.

DK has insanely good grabs which can make him a gimping master. He also has a few combos, most notably plat drop uair>uair. Granted he doesn't have as much as other characters but still much much more than Samus.



I'd agree that Samus is easier to space with and there is less chance of messing up. The problem is that at higher level play, it's expected that the characters are being played by high-level player that can space the character to a good degree too. I can't see say a Link getting always denied the approach by Samus.

I see much more samus players "comboing"with dairs than I see DKs comboing with uairs around platforms.

I can't see the link getting denied constantly either, no samus will be able to dodge his irritating projectiles all day. DK, ness, jigglypuff and luigi have much more trouble than him anyway, and are much more likely to be denied.

 

[asianaussie]

You can't say 'I don't see this often therefore the argument is weak' when it comes to a tier list.

Point is, DK has very decent U-Air plat drop combos, while Samus has D-Air techchasing. Dk can do D-Airs > Down-B techchases too.

 

[DMoogle]

I rarely see DK's u-air chain used either. I probably see more Samus f-air chains than DK u-air chains.

This tier list is supposed to be based on a certain level of play. If that level of play doesn't use a certain strategy much, then that strategy shouldn't have much weight on it.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

You can't say 'I don't see this often therefore the argument is weak' when it comes to a tier list.

Point is, DK has very decent U-Air plat drop combos, while Samus has D-Air techchasing. Dk can do D-Airs > Down-B techchases too.

Well, where do you draw the line on what should be included in the tier discussion? I don't think that really difficult and incredibly situational combos should be.

 

[asianaussie]

Whenever I play two people in Aus they can consistently get these U-Air combos on me whenever they land such an U-Air. They aren't situational like drop cancels (which I can actually see Samus mains, among others, using on Peach's), and since DK's U-Air is so huge you can legitimately get it on Dreamland, at the very least.

If there is a good option for a character against another, then it should be considered in the matchup, and hence the tiering.

 

[NixxxoN]

Maybe if the Link is bad, and doesn't know how to create openings with his projectiles. And you gain no advantage from "dodging them all day" and only risk getting hit, so why would you do it unless you were trying to time them out (LOL @ timing Link out)?

Link may get frustrated, then he may approach you more directly and stop spamming his cr@p, and you can bait him and hit him.
Well in fact i hate to see someone running around hyrule and spam stuff so i everytime i see someone do it, i try to nullify this "strategy" in any way i can, and not running directly into his stuff.

 

[ciaza]

Well, where do you draw the line on what should be included in the tier discussion? I don't think that really difficult and incredibly situational combos should be.

Really difficult? Hardly, with a bit a of practice. aa's covered situational and the rest of it.

 

[Olikus]

Not sure where this is going but I never meant that Samus is close in DKs level. DK is ofc much better. I just compared them since the only strong argument i've got so far for samus being bottom is that she cant combo very well. And then I used Dk as an example since he cant combo well either compared to the rest of the cast. And I didnt need to say his strenght since you all summon it up nicely.

See what I did there? So bottom line, even if the lack of combo brings you down in this game you need to take other things in consideration when your making a tier list.

Just checked the match up chart. Why is juigglypuff green an not blue(the easiest) against luigi? I thought that was like the worst balanced matchup.

 

[ciaza]

See what I did there?

No.

Noone is saying that combos alone are used in making the tier list. EVERY factor pertaining to the character is looked at. If what you are implying is that we have to look at the player controlling the character when determining the match-up then you're wrong. However I don't want to assume that you are.

Jigglypuff v. Luigi is considered one of the worst match-up's in the game but the match-up chart hasn't been updated in yonks. What is your justification for Jigglypuff being "green" and not "blue" anyway?

 

[Olikus]

No.

Noone is saying that combos alone are used in making the tier list. EVERY factor pertaining to the character is looked at. If what you are implying is that we have to look at the player controlling the character when determining the match-up then you're wrong. However I don't want to assume that you are.

Jigglypuff v. Luigi is considered one of the worst match-up's in the game but the match-up chart hasn't been updated in yonks. What is your justification for Jigglypuff being "green" and not "blue" anyway?

No im not saying that the player controlling the caracther determining the match up chart. Not sure why you drew that conclusion, but then I perhaps didnt make myself clear.


@ jigglypuf vs luigi. I meant why isnt it blue for luigi instead of green. Not the opposite. Like, there are a lot of match up that are blue for some, and then I find it rare that jigglypuff isnt blue for luigi, since I mean, and have heard by many here on this boards that that is one of the worst matchup in the game. But if the matchup chart is old, thats maybe why.

 

[ciaza]

Then what is your case for why Samus should be higher?

 

[BRLNK88]

Speaking of match-ups, I honestly think Fox vs. Link should be green instead of blue. Blue pretty much implies really bad to horrible, and it definitely isn't horrible if the Link plays smart, which any high level Link player will.
With Pikachu, Link's gimping ability is negated by Pikachu's recovery, and Pikachu can basically spike him sideways. Fox however is both easily gimped and comboed by Link, thanks to his predictable recovery and falling speed. He beats Link offensively for sure, but if forced into mistakes Link can really **** Fox up, and quickly.

 

[asianaussie]

Yeah...Fox pressures Link's shield so well it's actually really depressing. You have essentially zero safe out of shield options against a good Fox. Your ability to force approaches is negated by shines and lasers, and then ridiculous stuff like U-Tilt beating D-Air and half his moves coming out faster than you can jump come into play. Sure, you can get some U-Tilt/boomerang juggle on, but that doesn't stop the fact that Fox can pewpew all day and completely beats you in speed.

I'd say that's his worst matchup, edging out Pika

Spoiler

and Link dittos

very slightly because playing campers is not only incredibly difficult, but also very unenjoyable.

 

[DMoogle]

Fox vs. Link is a TERRIBLE matchup for Link, and I love playing matchups that are bad for Link. I'll take playing against Falcon or Pika instead of Fox any day.

 

[The Star King]

Puff vs. Luigi is bad, but I don't think it's one of the worst match-ups in the game :S

 

[BRLNK88]

eh... I think I'm just biased watching Isai's Link fight foxes... but obviously Isai just breaks the tier list.

 

[Olikus]

Puff vs. Luigi is bad, but I don't think it's one of the worst match-ups in the game :S

Well maybe I got too carried away by saying that. But since there are a descent number of blue matchups I felt that jigglypuff was that for luigi, but I guess there are worse matchups.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Fox vs. Link is a TERRIBLE matchup for Link, and I love playing matchups that are bad for Link. I'll take playing against Falcon or Pika instead of Fox any day.

Yes, that's really exciting Pika, Falcon and Fox, even Fox can get to be really annoying though, but still a challenge.

 

[DMoogle]

eh... I think I'm just biased watching Isai's Link fight foxes... but obviously Isai just breaks the tier list.

Probably. But even still, there's a video of Isai's Link losing to Sensei's Fox.

 

[Mew2King]

kirby is pretty cheap that's why i use him lol

but i don't think at TOP level play he's as good as fox is. He just takes like no skill to use

Did you know Fox's Fair either trades with or goes through Kirby's Bair (and all of Kirby's other moves except for up tilt). So the Fox player can spam lasers a lot, forcing kirby to approach. Then he can SH fair spam so unless the kirby does some amazing pivot up tilt approaches somehow he has a hard time getting in, and that's what I think top level probably is in that MU /theory

 

[NixxxoN]

Probably. But even still, there's a video of Isai's Link losing to Sensei's Fox.

There's also vids of his Link losing quite clearly to Johnny's Fox.

kirby is pretty cheap that's why i use him lol

but i don't think at TOP level play he's as good as fox is. He just takes like no skill to use

Did you know Fox's Fair either trades with or goes through Kirby's Bair (and all of Kirby's other moves except for up tilt). So the Fox player can spam lasers a lot, forcing kirby to approach. Then he can SH fair spam so unless the kirby does some amazing pivot up tilt approaches somehow he has a hard time getting in, and that's what I think top level probably is in that MU /theory

Kirby can duck/fly/use/rock/roll to dodge laser spamming, and then bait you into a utilt->whatever combo of death. Fox requires so much skill compared to kirby that makes him automatically less good than him IMO.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

let me guess:

they spam dair alot and expect you to run into them.

in a fair chance, you do on accident, they try to uair juggle you, they might succeed, but they fail at the up b finish, and then you severely punish them.

also, jiggly>1/2luigi

jiggly is a slighty better version of luigi, hell, both of them are floaty too.

the only reason i give jiggly the upper hand is because jiggly has better gimping abilities then luigi and rest is still stronger then up b.

also, jiggly's uair>luigi's uair.

ninja edit: jesus chris where'd kuz and korrupshen's post go.
double edit: maybe i was on a older page and i saw it thinking that it was the latest one.
triple edit: yeah, that's probably it.

 

[th3kuzinator]

looooool

so wait are you saying jiggs > luigi?!

wat

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

^^^ lol
That even reading it is funny.

Also, I think Luigi uair is slightly better than Jiggs uair.

 

[DMoogle]

Luigi's u-air is WAY WAY better than Jigg's u-air. Jigg's rest may be stronger than Luigi's up-B, but Luigi's up-B will generally kill Jiggs at a lower percent than her rest will kill Luigi.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

OPNIONS.JPG

i was just factoring one specific, i know if it really came down to it, luigi would beat jiggly, but jiggly is more fun to use.

if you want me to get more technical and more advanced with my explaining then:
here.

Jiggly's uair is stronger then Luigi's uair, and 2 well placed uair's to a rest is pretty much unstoppable, however, that goes for the same with luigi, and you get more hits with luigi's and, better range and whatnot.

Luigi's uair is not as strong as Jiggly's, but is a better juggler, thus giving luigi the upper advantage for that.


now, jiggly and luigi in a matchup, however, luigi would probably beat jiggly.

jiggly could get uair chained easily just as easily as luigi could get uair chained by jiggly, however..

luigi, as A$ said, can kill jiggly faster then luigi can..HOWEVER

if the jiggly is smart enough, he can easily beat a luigi, he/she just needs to learn to read luigi players and it's a fairly easy win DEPENDING how good you are with jiggly.

i just said jiggly>(1/2)luigi because jiggly has more options and is a better gimper then luigi so yeah my opnion is final.

(everything else A$ said.)

jiggly is a slighty better version of luigi, hell, both of them are floaty too.

okay this part is just blatantly stupid, i should watch what i say.

 

[Olikus]

OPNIONS.JPG

if the jiggly is smart enough, he can easily beat a luigi, he/she just needs to learn to read luigi players and it's a fairly easy win DEPENDING how good you are with jiggly.

Well that point cant be considered in a matchup discussion, because you can just say the oposite thing. If a luigi is smart enough he can easily beat the jigglypuff allso. If the jigglypuff player is much better than the luigi player sure he/she/it will win. But the match up list is for people on a high close level.

And if the players are in a close high level, luigi>puff.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

well alright.

if it was a even matchup of skill a luigi would probably beat a jiggly but that doesn't mean jiggly is completely out of the loop and it's a total annhilation.

i mean, really.. i'm pretty sure even at even levels a jiggly should figure out what a luigi is gonna do. :sigh:

 

[Olikus]

well alright.

if it was a even matchup of skill a luigi would probably beat a jiggly but that doesn't mean jiggly is completely out of the loop and it's a total annhilation.

i mean, really.. i'm pretty sure even at even levels a jiggly should figure out what a luigi is gonna do. :sigh:

I see your point, its not that the match up list is the answer on every outcome of a match. Every caracther can beat every carcather on the same skill player level. So a jigglypuff can beat a luigi player on the same level. Its just that luigi should have the best chance of winning after the speaker says GO!

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

if the jiggly is smart enough, he can easily beat a luigi, he/she just needs to learn to read luigi players and it's a fairly easy win DEPENDING how good you are with jiggly.

Matchups are based on characters, not on an specific player's skills, think of it as if there're two players with the same level playing against each other.