The New Tier List

[th3kuzinator]

^^

this game is SKILL LEVEL not CHARACTER LEVEL. However when discussing individual character's ranking you need to assume they are the same skill level or else you are not correctly comparing the characters. A good jiggs can beat a bad luigi, no duh, but luigi will **** jiggs if at the same level. Luigi >> Jiggs.

Luigi's u-air is WAY WAY better than Jigg's u-air. Jigg's rest may be stronger than Luigi's up-B, but Luigi's up-B will generally kill Jiggs at a lower percent than her rest will kill Luigi.

This. Also, thought rest may have more knockback, most of it is horizontal. Luigi's fire punch is strictly vertical and will kill Jiggs and around 31% which is absolutely ridiculous since it combos so well out of uair chairs or sh dair ff uair. Any good player can simply mash the up button to jump out of Jigg's fthrow and can only be rest combos by a few utilts to rest starting at above 40%ish (if you want to have hope killing him anyway).

Even if jiggs is faster than luigi in the air, its very hard to combo into rest w/o a utilt as timing a uair at a weird angle is tough and weak fairs are terrible approaches. Even then rest wont kill luigi most of the time while one small mistake and jiggs is being uair combod into fire punch.

Soup, you are not considering that Jiggs cannnot usually fthrow to uair chain luigi and somehow have the preconception that jiggs' uair is better than luigis. The latter is simply untrue.

As for gimping, its not that easy to gimp luigi. Jiggs dsmash is good but not unbeatable. Jiggs on the other hand, once off the stage is very easily predicted.

tl;dr? Luigi >> Jiggs. This has nothing to do with how fun the character is, I am talking strictly matchup because I think this is what we are debating.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

this game is SKILL LEVEL not CHARACTER LEVEL. However when discussing individual character's ranking you need to assume they are the same skill level or else you are not correctly comparing the characters. A good jiggs can beat a bad luigi, no duh, but luigi will **** jiggs if at the same level. Luigi >> Jiggs.

I think that's what I said.

 

[Mahie]

The " ^^" probably meant he agreed with your post.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Ik, I was agreeing with you.

mahie would ninja me

good **** mahie

 

[Mahie]

I like being a ninja.


Back to m2k's post, I think a Fox would lose even if both hits trade. The end of the Fair might have the same priority, but it'll only graze the Kirby, meaning he'll be able to attack faster than the Fox'll be able to recover, on a trade. The way to prevent that for Fox would be to Fair low to the ground and cancel it as soon as the strong hitbox is over, but then Kirby can just Fsmash through it, in my opinion.

 

[BRLNK88]

I have no experience with that match-up, but I feel like Jiggs is better at actually starting combos, thus giving her the upper hand. Luigi's short-hop, aerial priority and air speed are terrible.
Granted, neither character needs more than a 4 or 5 hit combo to finish the other off.

 

[ballin4life]

Jiggs doesn't combo Luigi for **** that's one of the problems. Fthrow doesn't work. Uairs are super situational. Jiggs's only combo is drill utilt rest - but even utilts send Luigi fairly high so you can't link too many of them, and Luigi is relatively heavy for a floaty so rest won't always kill.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

I didn't know that meaning for "^^"
Never mind then. xD

 

[NixxxoN]

Luigi is just perfect for killing jiggs:

-Jiggs very light and dies fast
-Luigi has three quick upwards finishers that can kill jiggs at very low %
-Luigi's moveset/weight is perfect for comboing jiggs
-Jiggs has trouble comboing Luigi
-If jiggs misses a rest, she's dead, unlike luigi. She is also dead when shield breaked
-(maybe i miss something more)

In general its IMO one of the 3 worst matchups in the game

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

That's not only your opinion, but mine too.
Also I'd say that Luigi's reaction time is slightly faster than Jiggs.

 

[Olikus]

It would be closer if it wasnt for jigglypuff unbelievable ability of dying at low percent. If she just have some percent luigi has so many posibilities for going for the kill. I really think the match up chart need to be updated. Its not as easy for DK against jigglypuff as it is for luigi against jigglypuff(both green).

jigglypuff against luigi is at least one of the 10 worst match up. Maybe even worse.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I have no experience with that match-up

no offense, but this is why you are off-base.

 

[BRLNK88]

no offense, but this is why you are off-base.

I know, but nothing wrong with stating what I observe, I may not have played the match-up, but I've SEEN it played.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It would be closer if it wasnt for jigglypuff unbelievable ability of dying at low percent. If she just have some percent luigi has so many posibilities for going for the kill. I really think the match up chart need to be updated. Its not as easy for DK against jigglypuff as it is for luigi against jigglypuff(both green).

jigglypuff against luigi is at least one of the 10 worst match up. Maybe even worse.

I consider it the worst along with Pikachu vs. Samus

 

[ciaza]

I reckon Fox vs. Samus is worse than Pikachu vs. Samus, on Hyrule at least.

 

[ballin4life]

IDK Fox's lasers pwn Samus but at least Samus has a chance with gimps ... against Pika it's like wtf are you going to do?

 

[Olikus]

Pika against link on DL is pretty horrible. Grab, throw out, oh no!

 

[NixxxoN]

It would be closer if it wasnt for jigglypuff unbelievable ability of dying at low percent. If she just have some percent luigi has so many posibilities for going for the kill. I really think the match up chart need to be updated. Its not as easy for DK against jigglypuff as it is for luigi against jigglypuff(both green).

jigglypuff against luigi is at least one of the 10 worst match up. Maybe even worse.

Jiggs can combo DK much easier than she can with Luigi, but still, DK still does very good with that high range, also we've got a combo that can make DK kill jiggs insanely easily and fast... Make 12-15% damage, cargo grab-> jump-> fthrow -> giant punch -> jiggs dead on all stages except Sector Z
and I'd say top 10 worst matchups is not enough, try top 3

 

[DMoogle]

Most one-sided match-ups IMO (not necessarily in order):
Pika vs. Link
Luigi vs. Jiggly
Fox vs. Link

Falcon vs. Link
Pika vs. Samus

 

[Battlecow]

Most one-sided match-ups IMO (not necessarily in order):
Pika vs. Link
Luigi vs. Jiggly
Fox vs. Link

Falcon vs. Link
Pika vs. Samus

I more or less agree with the first three, although I might throw fox vs samus in there and move Luigi/Jiggly to #4.

 

[DMoogle]

I was thinking about that. I've definitely fought Foxes before that made my Samus feel helpless, but I don't really feel the other way around that often.

Conclusion: My Fox sucks.

 

[SilentSlayers]

Good conclusion bro.

 

[Frogles]

fox vs samus is definitely there. she can't really do much about fox's lasers and speedy aerials.

i'd also throw ness vs kirby on there and ness vs pika. kirby because hes a real ***** on stage and outranges the crap out of ness with every attack and pika because his ********* cant be gimped.

 

[Olikus]

okay so the majority here allso thinks jiggly is blue for luigi then.(means luigi>>puff) Time to update the matchup chart, and then maybe allso the tier list if it gets very effected by the changes.

 

[The Star King]

IDK Fox's lasers pwn Samus but at least Samus has a chance with gimps ... against Pika it's like wtf are you going to do?

Like every avid Samus player I know says Fox is worse :/

 

[HellxBound]

I've heard pika vs falcon on dream is an even matchup, why is this? I would have thought the sheer gimpability of falcon would have swung it somewhat in pika's favour.

 

[ciaza]

I agree with Frogles especially on Kirby vs. Ness. Get in a solid dair>bair for approach, knock in some utilts and finish however you want (reverse weak bair>firnal cutter, etc), or at the very least knock them off the stage and gimp.

I've heard pika vs falcon on dream is an even matchup, why is this? I would have thought the sheer gimpability of falcon would have swung it somewhat in pika's favour.

Who did you hear this from? Generally falcon can get an advantage on Dreamland against anyone since platforms help him to combo but I'd definitely say Pika>Falcon on Dreamland (anywhere for that matter).

 

[HellxBound]

I can't even remember where I've heard it, it might have actually been in this thread. I think it was in the context of "Pika has only a couple of even matchups, fox on hyrule and falcon on dreamland being the main ones".

 

[BRLNK88]

Most one-sided match-ups IMO (not necessarily in order):
Pika vs. Link
Luigi vs. Jiggly
Fox vs. Link

Falcon vs. Link
Pika vs. Samus

Falcon vs. Link is bad, but it's not one sided.
Maybe on Dreamland.

On the subject of Dreamland and Link, its a shame that it's such a bad stage for him cuz he can do some amazing combos with the platforms.

 

[Sangoku]

I feel that concerning link's matchups, if the link player is better, they aren't so bad. I know matchups are for even skilled players, what I meant is that the "matchup gap" is well compensated by skill. Which doesn't seem to be the case with other matchups (such as luigi-jiggly).
Anyone else had that impression or am I just saying rubbish?

 

[asianaussie]

you can beat luigi as jiggs if you're a lot better than them

luigi isn't immune to u-tilt rest or a lot of jiggs' silly stuff

 

[Sangoku]

I know but what I meant is that it's easier to compensate a hard link matchup with difference of skills.

Anyway I guess that is just my random feeling.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

Like every avid Samus player I know says Fox is worse :/

as an avid samus player i think pikachu is worse

 

[Olikus]

I can't even remember where I've heard it, it might have actually been in this thread. I think it was in the context of "Pika has only a couple of even matchups, fox on hyrule and falcon on dreamland being the main ones".

Even if dreamland is pikachus personal playground, I would say it is the stage were falcon gets the best chance against pika. Since he allso gets a boost on that stage. So falcon on dreamland is one of the hardest matchups for pika. Still pikachu has the advantage imo.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

I reckon Fox vs. Samus is worse than Pikachu vs. Samus, on Hyrule at least.

^^^ This.

Also, I'd say:
Pika vs Link
Luigi vs Jiggly
Fox vs Samus

 

[ciaza]

Falcon getting a boost on Dreamland is arguable. I mean sure his offensive abilities get amplified but his ability to get gimped are increased a lot too. Best evinced in the 12 char battle with something like 1 stock Isai Pika vs. 4 stock Falcon Boom. But obviously using malva as a source is questionable lol.

 

[Olikus]

Falcon getting a boost on Dreamland is arguable. I mean sure his offensive abilities get amplified but his ability to get gimped are increased a lot too. Best evinced in the 12 char battle with something like 1 stock Isai Pika vs. 4 stock Falcon Boom. But obviously using malva as a source is questionable lol.

You mean falcon dont get a boost on Dreamland, or falcon dont get a boost vs pikachu on dreamland?

If you mean the first I dont agree. Sure he can get gimped, but Dreamland is still falcons best stage by far. It seems as the developers had falcon in mind while they creeated that stage.

If you mean that falcon not getting a boost on DL vs Pikachu its another story. I dont think another stage is better for falcon facing pika but the word boost was maybe a too hard word, since pikachu isnt really in danger in any matchup on any stage. But if you still should say which matchup is the hardest for pikachu(doesnt really matter if its hard or not) I would say falcon on DL is one of the least easiest for pikachu.

 

[ciaza]

Falcon gets a boost on Dreamland against most characters, especially the ones that can't gimp him easily.

I would also argue that a Pikachu should be dominating a falcon of the same skill level on Dreamland. Hit one Bthrow, hell even a Fthrow will do, and gimp in any way you want from there. Pikachu also has a number of easy aerial combos to perform on Falcon.

Granted Falcon can combo Pika well on the stage, but my vote is 100% for Pika>Falcon on Dreamland.

 

[Olikus]

Well as I said Pikachu hasn't really very big troubles against anyone at anystage. Some of the reasons I think he should be in his own tier, but thats another discussion. But with danger to repeat myself too many times. If you should make a list over the matchup pikachu has least easiest time with(dont need to be hard) I would say one of them is falcon on dreamland.

 

[Sangoku]

I'm a Falcon main and I don't feel dreamland's boost is so significant. Falcon gets easily gimped. But maybe I'm not good enough to judge...

I would say pika's worst matchup is fox on hyrule, because fox can always run away and there is the tent (aka fox's playground).
And obviously fox doesn't suffer too much from his poor recovery.