The New Tier List

[dandan]

the tier list is for 1v1s only, with high level of play in mind.
some of the stages are broken, they create situations that will break the matches. yoshi island with clouds, get a kirby to jump up and down on the right hand most cloud. why would someone want to approach, stuck, and so on.

are you saying jigs rest is underpowered?

samus having the best air attacks is just showing a lack of undertanding, to be honest. bair is awesome, and used to ko. but many other chars have better ones. you do not consider ones that combo, as samus's dont and there are many more considerations i will not get into now.

 

[BestSamusEver]

Well, I suppose if one is playing with people that absolutely HAVE to camp on the cloud...

It's relatively hard to hit (for me, and admittedly, I don't know any serious Jiggly players) , and if you miss it's probably the most catastrophic miss in the game. Leaves you completely open to attack. (Regarding Jiggly's rest) I don't think it's underpowered as much as it would take a great deal of practice to learn how to hit it consistently.

I feel that Samus' arial attacks are perfect for combo-ing if one can set them up correctly. Now, I will admit, given the fact that it's 1v1 that brings her stock down considerably and does take away a lot of her advantages.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Spoiler

Now I kind of have an idea of what debaters may think of me in the PG sometimes... A really bad joke and probably trolling even agains myself, an infraction for this wouldn't be something to complain about.

 

[dandan]

again, the tier list was made with high level of play in mind, and as such, saying something takes a great deal of practice is not really taken into account.
moreover, learning to combo into jigs rest is really simple, to be honest.
this tier list takes yoshi's parries into account, and not a lot of people can do them consistently.

samus's aerials do not combo into each other, they just don't. take the most simple of examples, falcon uair. he can chain them for long combos on most chars, and then finish with upb, samus does not have anything like that. to combo with samus you pretty much need a wall.
now, that does not mean samus is not viable, it just means that overall, she has disadvantages compared to the rest of the chars.

now, i don't mean to be rude, but i seriously doubt you are the best samus ever, but if you want to see a really good samus (probably the best in the world) you should watch jousuke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7jRYmlFnlU
enjoy.

 

[ballin4life]

Yeah, see that's what I suspected but I wasn't sure.

Does no one play 4 man brawl?

We might play it, but we don't take it seriously.

The reason is that it doesn't always show who is the best due to the possibility of collusion. Player A might be the best player, but lose every match since B,C, and D gang up on him, knowing that he is the best.

Well, I suppose if one is playing with people that absolutely HAVE to camp on the cloud...

It's relatively hard to hit (for me, and admittedly, I don't know any serious Jiggly players) , and if you miss it's probably the most catastrophic miss in the game. Leaves you completely open to attack. (Regarding Jiggly's rest) I don't think it's underpowered as much as it would take a great deal of practice to learn how to hit it consistently.

I feel that Samus' arial attacks are perfect for combo-ing if one can set them up correctly. Now, I will admit, given the fact that it's 1v1 that brings her stock down considerably and does take away a lot of her advantages.

Plenty of people are good enough to hit with Jiggs's rest all the time.

I'd recommend watching videos of good players and checking out the stickied threads in this forum for more info on high level play.

Samus's aerials don't combo well at all - you know if you go into training mode there is a combo meter? Try to do a combo of more than 4 hits with Samus, and you'll find it's quite difficult. Again, you can watch crazy videos of people doing training mode combos too.

Overall, check out the stickies, and watch videos of good players like Isai, SuPeRbOoM, and the other people in the smash Index sticky and the Smash Videos subforum.


@ dandan - Samus videos aren't exactly the best for showing someone what high level play is like ... it's hard to recognize when someone is good from videos ... I'd shoot for something with more combos in it

@ 3mmanu3lrc - honestly I don't think you're the greatest debater, but you're not terrible ... and at the least you are respectful to all posters. Also I cut you some slack since I think you are posting in a second language (I assume your first language is Spanish, being from the Dominican Republic).

 

[dandan]

i just gave an example for a samus player, as i think the one asking the questions here is.
also, i think you can tell jousuke is good from vids.
moreover, combos as you know, are not the difficult part, the most important thing, imo, is spacing, but that is something a starting player cannot appreciate fully.

 

[BestSamusEver]

samus's aerials do not combo into each other, they just don't. take the most simple of examples, falcon uair. he can chain them for long combos on most chars, and then finish with upb, samus does not have anything like that. to combo with samus you pretty much need a wall.
now, that does not mean samus is not viable, it just means that overall, she has disadvantages compared to the rest of the chars.

now, i don't mean to be rude, but i seriously doubt you are the best samus ever, but if you want to see a really good samus (probably the best in the world) you should watch jousuke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7jRYmlFnlU
enjoy.

OK, I see that I define combos differently than other people do. I consider any move that sets up another move to be a combo if both moves are pulled off. Not only those which show up as a combo on Training.

That guy looks pretty awesome. I don't know if he's better or not based on the video's, I'd have to play him, but he plays Samus better than anyone I've ever played with.

LOL, I don't think it's rude. With a name that says "Best_Ever" I expect a LOT of people to dispute it.

 

[dandan]

to be brutally honest, just by your questions and remarks, the best ever tag is not really appropriate.
i would suggest trying online play, just to get a feel to some of the players skill levels.
sure, you will be hampered and not as good as you are on the console, but you will be able to witness first hand whether or not you are the best.

i really wish there was a recording of your play we could see for ourselves. i know you cannot completely judge a player's level from a video, but you can try and assess a general level.

 

[BestSamusEver]

Player A might be the best player, but lose every match since B,C, and D gang up on him, knowing that he is the best.

Oh... =(

I thought mutual respect for the game might discount that....

I must be so monumentally naive... probably due to my never playing games online...

Plenty of people are good enough to hit with Jiggs's rest all the time.

I'm gonna need to look at more videos, my friends and I have been under the impression for over 10 years that Jiggly was just not a viable option... I've never seen anyone pick her not as a joke...

Samus's aerials don't combo well at all - you know if you go into training mode there is a combo meter? Try to do a combo of more than 4 hits with Samus, and you'll find it's quite difficult.

OK, yeah. You're right.

My ignorance is getting the better of me...

 

[BestSamusEver]

on the name and my ignorance: I play with a pretty small, tight-knit, group of guys (and girls!) that all bought the game when it first came out. Naturally, they all got their "main" characters pretty quickly, and we all loved Link, so everything seemed cool.

Except for me. I kind of just used everyone, mainly Cap Falcon, and I used to get beat ALL THE TIME!!! But then I picked Samus one time and instantly fell in love, and I used her ever since. And right after that I started getting pretty good, and for a while I ruled among my friends. And none of them used Samus. Also, my smasher friends and I have never personally played with people who were better than us, and usually we would destroy people who came in, and so we kind of had an inside joke that we were the only good smashers in the world, which is where the name comes from...

I am shockingly ignorant about some things in the game though. For instance, before yesterday I had no idea what DJCing was. I saw a video and my first thought was: "hax" and then I tried it out on training and was like WTF? I've never seen that before in my life! Still can't really do it all that well and so I don't see the use of it too much but I'll have to see. But it's stuff like that that makes me wonder. I was positive that I'd used every move in the game like 10,000x, but there you go. Something I didn't even know existed and it's considered a huge part of the game... =(

 

[NovaSmash]

thats pretty bad that u played for 10 years and never knew wat djc was and that u dont see much use for it. You should download the emu and play online, i bet you will gain more skill in a month online than you have in 10 years on console.

 

[jahnybrovo21]

Why Is Donkey KONg So low???

 

[Battlecow]

Hey dude (Bestsamusever)- you seem like a nice, thoughtful guy, who loves the same game we do, so I'm going to ask you to trust me on something-

We get people in here all the time saying "I'm very good/the best" or "_____ is the best character/better than you give him credit for." You've been playing the game a long time (longer than I have), but unfortunately, playing solely with a small group of friends leads to inbred playstyles. If you played, as I and the others on this forum have, with a diverse and large group of elite smashers, you'd quickly learn that there are a number of techniques, situations, and whatnots that are virtually impossible to discover with only a few smashers. So the tl;dr on that is- We know what we're talking about. We really do. Samus and Link are balls. Jiggs isn't superbad because comboing into rest is quick and easy on most characters, and you really won't miss much at all if you're good.

On the stages- You could include every stage in the game, and Samus would still be #12. We choose not to play certain stages because they lead inevitably to "dirty" matches- that is, matches where instead of playing the game in its purest form, you're exploiting the stage gimmicks over and over again or else getting messed up by them- spending time dealing with things other than your opponent(s), in other words. That being said, playing on "neutral" stages has brought our games to the point where we'd wreck on the other stages too, should we deign to play on them.

As for the Free-for-alls- there's no way that smash is "meant" to be played; Sakurai allowed it to be customizable so that we the players could choose the best way to play. Following your logic, items would be allowed as well- and I hope that you see the folly in that option. So yeah, FFA's will end up with campfests and whatnot if people are really trying. They're good for laughs, but not the true test of skill that a 1v1 is. We do play a lot of serious 2v2 teams matches, by the way.

Oh and WOW at 10,000 hours. If that's true, you've spent like 2.3 hours a day for the last 12 years playing smash. Sir, I salute you; I probably haven't chalked up more than 1500 myself.

Why Is Donkey KONg So low???

Because he's slow and easy to combo and has a lackluster "approach" (that is, it's hard to get into grabbin' range using him) and he's kind of easy to edgeguard and doesn't have many combos.

 

[BestSamusEver]

thats pretty bad that u played for 10 years and never knew wat djc was and that u dont see much use for it. You should download the emu and play online, i bet you will gain more skill in a month online than you have in 10 years on console.

I honestly never would have figured out DJCing myself. For one, I don't button-mash and I suspect that may have been where it was first found to even be an option. For another, I don;'t use Ness all THAT often and when I did I thought his jump was another advantage he had. I don't see much use for it because I've never used it before and am not very good at hitting it. I tried using it on a match with a buddy (he was using link) and he destroyed me by dodging and bombing me.

I don't do emulators, I'm kind of a purist, and I'm not too into online play.

I would LOVE to play some of you on a console though, and we can see who needs to learn what.

 

[Battlecow]

I honestly never would have figured out DJCing myself. For one, I don't button-mash and I suspect that may have been where it was first found to even be an option. For another, I don;'t use Ness all THAT often and when I did I thought his jump was another advantage he had. I don't see much use for it because I've never used it before and am not very good at hitting it. I tried using it on a match with a buddy (he was using link) and he destroyed me by dodging and bombing me.

I don't do emulators, I'm kind of a purist, and I'm not too into online play.

I would LOVE to play some of you on a console though, and we can see who needs to learn what.

Where do you live, bro? Not to come over all creeperish. Also, at responding to Nova's post and not mine... *sniff*... that post was a labor of love.

 

[BestSamusEver]

You've been playing the game a long time (longer than I have), but unfortunately, playing solely with a small group of friends leads to inbred playstyles.

Oh yeah, I know that. It's one of the main issues I've been having lately, we all know eachothers styles and tendencies REALLY well and so matches tend to get pretty intense but we don't learn much more than we already know.

As for the Free-for-alls- there's no way that smash is "meant" to be played; Sakurai allowed it to be customizable so that we the players could choose the best way to play. Following your logic, items would be allowed as well- and I hope that you see the folly in that option.

I don't discount the idea of 1v1s or No Items (we usually play No Items), but I do think that completely ignoring the FFA and items is really missing a big part of the game. I recognize that a lot of people may try to be unfair in those situations, but that, again, is probably why I don't play a lot of online. It's easy to prevent that with a close group of friends on a console, you can either gang up on the offender or you can "shame" them into playing right. Online is different I guess, I didn't really think about that.

Oh and WOW at 10,000 hours. If that's true, you've spent like 2.3 hours a day for the last 12 years playing smash.

Most of it was when I was younger, my brothers and I would play for like ten hours a day, just trying every different game type we could come up with.

I'm a total dork... XD

oh sorry, i didn't know I should put both replies in one post. I do appreciate your response though, and the time it took.

I live in So Cali, LOL at creeper.

 

[NovaSmash]

I honestly never would have figured out DJCing myself. For one, I don't button-mash and I suspect that may have been where it was first found to even be an option. For another, I don;'t use Ness all THAT often and when I did I thought his jump was another advantage he had. I don't see much use for it because I've never used it before and am not very good at hitting it. I tried using it on a match with a buddy (he was using link) and he destroyed me by dodging and bombing me.

I don't do emulators, I'm kind of a purist, and I'm not too into online play.

I would LOVE to play some of you on a console though, and we can see who needs to learn what.

yoshi can djc too, go to the video section and the thread titled ness and watch his vids. You can play online with a n64 controller if you wanted, it sounds like you're afraid to go online and find out how good you really are.

Also, Cali has a lot of console players

 

[BestSamusEver]

You can play online with a n64 controller if you wanted

You can? o.0 Dude I am BEHIND the times...

it sounds like you're afraid to go online and find out how good you really are.

LOL, I am a bit! Don't be too harsh though, I've been the best at Super Smash for so long I don't want to lose my position (even if it's only in my own head) so quickly.

Plus, I don't know if my current comp could take it, its a Mac (does that make a difference?)

I'm gonna have to try to get more involved in the smashing community. I never knew the game still drew attention, I thought it was all about COD and HALO these days. I never knew there was a place where I could share my love of Smash 64 ("the true test of video gaming" as my friends used to call it).

 

[Battlecow]

yoshi can djc too, go to the video section and the thread titled ness and watch his vids. You can play online with a n64 controller if you wanted, it sounds like you're afraid to go online and find out how good you really are.

Be nice nova.

And Samus, Socal is a pretty happenin' place, smash-wise- you should check out the player contact sticky to find some guys from the forum who live near you and play a few matches with them.

 

[The Star King]

Thought he was trolling at first, since he was using every classic scrub argument in the book, but then he kind of conceded and stuff so I guess not.

I'll let others elaborate.

Maybe I will when I'm bored.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ok, I skipped almost every post there. I'll just state my opinions... but they may have already been stated.

As far as the tier list goes, it was created by everyone here, and is basically a collective agreement between everyone. Some people have a few disagreements (like Puff/Ness, Link/Luigi, Fox/Kirby), but overall, people agree with that list. It is based on a very high level of skill, where all humanly possible techniques are being used. It is based on 1v1 matches, where both players know the matchup, and are of equal high level skill.

As far as the banned stages go, each stage is banned for a reason. Would you like to play on Mushroom Kingdom against a player who just waited on the far right side and did nothing except back throw you off the stage? Or play against a Fox player who hides in the lower tunnel on the left side and spam lazers? It shows no player skill, and in fact, basically proves who can play the lamest working strategy. All the other stages have a similar reason for being banned.

If possible, the best way for us to show our side (and for you to show your side) is for you to download an emulator and play online against us. That way, you can show us why you think Link and Samus are the best characters, and we can show you that DJC vastly improves Ness and Yoshi's abilities.

 

[Sangoku]

It's like Plato's allegory of the cave.

Most players are in the cave and won't believe what the real world is.

And having played a long time doesn't help. I've never discovered z-cancel or double jump cancel alone.

I really suggest you play some good people either online or offline and you will see ^^.

 

[ballin4life]

There are a lot of Socal players ... and Norcal too if you are ever going to be up there.

 

[sharksquail]

Plus, I don't know if my current comp could take it, its a Mac (does that make a difference?)

It does. to play online you will have to bootcamp and install windows. but your comp is probably fine to run pj64, so do it and come play online with us.

 

[Mahie]

You can? o.0 Dude I am BEHIND the times...


LOL, I am a bit! Don't be too harsh though, I've been the best at Super Smash for so long I don't want to lose my position (even if it's only in my own head) so quickly.

Plus, I don't know if my current comp could take it, its a Mac (does that make a difference?)

I'm gonna have to try to get more involved in the smashing community. I never knew the game still drew attention, I thought it was all about COD and HALO these days. I never knew there was a place where I could share my love of Smash 64 ("the true test of video gaming" as my friends used to call it).

You should try to be just a little bit more modest, or the fall will hurt. A lot. Unless you're really good at trolling and you're actually not the one you pretend, I foresee a lot of 5 stocking.

 

[NixxxoN]

You should try to be just a little bit more modest, or the fall will hurt. A lot. Unless you're really good at trolling and you're actually not the one you pretend, I foresee a lot of 5 stocking.

Its only a game mahie. And the guy is only someone who discovered online play

 

[Surri-Sama]

You should try to be just a little bit more modest, or the fall will hurt. A lot. Unless you're really good at trolling and you're actually not the one you pretend, I foresee a lot of 5 stocking.

for most of us there really isn't a fall...at least not one that hurts in any real way. you make smash64 sound like pole vaulting....now that hurts if you make a mistake!

 

[NixxxoN]

for most of us there really isn't a fall...at least not one that hurts in any real way. you make smash64 sound like pole vaulting....now that hurts if you make a mistake!

You mean, like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf66r0nQa0Y

LOL

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

You mean, like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf66r0nQa0Y

LOL

I don't know if you're serious, but...
Oh man. lol

 

[Mahie]

Its only a game mahie. And the guy is only someone who discovered online play

Yeah I guess it sounded wayy cockier than what I meant it to be. I just meant to say that it was common sense that he wouldn't beat a community well installed just like that, and that if he took any kind of pride in being the best he should reconsider, and be a little more modest. I didnt say I would beat him myself or anything... I don't know how to explain it, but I didn't want to be rude or mean.

 

[t3h Icy]

I also thought it'd be fun to see how wool handles fire.

 

[The Star King]

Cool creation.

Fox > Puff :D

I summon ballin4life.

 

[Battlecow]

Grrrr Weegee>>Jiggs.

Does anyone NOT agree with that?

 

[The Star King]

I kind of disagree but I haven't played the match-up enough to really justify that.

 

[ciaza]

I would argue Luigi>Jiggs on Dreamland (Jiggs can air camp to some degree and has a better chance of getting some easy bthrow gimps)

Luigi>>Jiggs on Hyrule (Weegee is harder to gimp and if he lands a grab at like >40% in the tent Jiggs is gone.)

 

[dock]

Your tier list reads like a third-rate romance novel written by a hapless amateur on some combination of amphetamines and PCP.

 

[ciaza]

I am liking dock's posts and his similes.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

I would argue Luigi>Jiggs on Dreamland (Jiggs can air camp to some degree and has a better chance of getting some easy bthrow gimps)

Luigi>>Jiggs on Hyrule (Weegee is harder to gimp and if he lands a grab at like >40% in the tent Jiggs is gone.)

I'd say for DL Luigi > Jiggs, the platforms may screw the combos some times, but it may also be the ticket to a flawless victory.
Hyrule: Luigi >> Jiggs, getting grabbed in the tent would cost Jiggs a stock at any % in most of the cases.

And absolutely: Fox >> Jiggs

 

[The Star King]

Dock should post more often.

Fox > Jiggs.

 

[AtotheZ]

DK=Pikachu