The New Tier List

[bearer_of_the_triforce]

Lol, my little brother just got Smashbros 64 off wii shop channel, and he's addicted to it... XD

I gotta admit, the gameplay is, for some strange reason, a lot more fun than brawl and melee. (I guess the later versions are maor competitive, which I'm fine with)

 

[Blue Yoshi]

There is a good competitive scene for smash 64 as well. It's just... it's overshadowed by the others that many people don't even know of it. But you are completely right. The gameplay is a lot more fun than brawl and melee.

 

[Battlecow]

Glad you like it.

It's competitive too, though. Fr srs.

 

[ofizzy]

agree with this thread

 

[NixxxoN]

And in the end this is a game... Its cool if a game is competitive, but in my opinion, the most important is that it has to be FUN and then competitive as a secondary thing.

 

[ballin4life]

competitive = fun

 

[NixxxoN]

competitive = fun

No, thats relative.
A competitive game can be fun or not, and a game can be fun regardless of being competitive or not

 

[Battlecow]

Games don't have to be competitive to be fun.

Although I've never really liked a noncompetitive game for its own sake, and I gather that most males wouldn't.

 

[blaze3927]

each to their own

i play smash for the fun and competitive aspect, but mostly for the amazing/wtf/trollface and otherwise cool moments i and other people achieve from being good at the game.

 

[NixxxoN]

Games don't have to be competitive to be fun.

Although I've never really liked a noncompetitive game for its own sake, and I gather that most males wouldn't.

Mario Kart series for example, I've never considered them competitive games, as you can get skilled but there is too much of a random/luck factor, but they are still really fun.

And also, chess is really competitive, but really really boring for my taste, and...

Spoiler

brawl too LOL

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I play 64 because of Planet Zebes. It is simply the best stage ever, and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

 

[Battlecow]

>_____________________________________________________________>

That is my reaction to you.

Anyone who agrees with you is wrong.

Why would you like Zebes

 

[NixxxoN]

Zebes is a fun stage if you dont mind the match result, and its a good stage in general with the lava gamshark code on

 

[ballin4life]

No, thats relative.
A competitive game can be fun or not, and a game can be fun regardless of being competitive or not

A competitive multiplayer game will always be more fun than a noncompetitive multiplayer game.

The example of chess is a good one to bring up, but I wouldn't put that as chess not being fun, it's that chess takes a lot of commitment (memorizing openings, etc) before you are actually playing the competitive, fun game.

Games don't have to be competitive to be fun.

Although I've never really liked a noncompetitive game for its own sake, and I gather that most males wouldn't.

Sorry, competitive => fun.

I mean, I like single player games too.

But most every non coop multiplayer game that I like is competitive. Except mario party.

 

[Wenbobular]

There is a good competitive scene for smash 64 as well. It's just... it's overshadowed by the others that many people don't even know of it. But you are completely right. The gameplay is a lot more fun than brawl and melee.

I think Melee is a lot more fun than 64 >_<
You get so much more freedom of movement

No arguments about Brawl though ¬.¬

 

[Battlecow]

Sorry, competitive => fun.

I mean, I like single player games too.

But most every non coop multiplayer game that I like is competitive. Except mario party.

Competitive=fun MOST OF THE TIME, FOR MOST PEOPLE is what you're saying. I agree.

 

[Ocean]

I'm pretty sure he knows that it's subjective.

 

[Battlecow]

He seems to be maybe possibly arguing otherwise.

Dunno how serious he is.

I think there is a (somewhat bad) argument to be made for its objectivity; keep in mind that this is the guy who thinks Jigglypuff>Fox.

 

[StretchNutz]

If you are relatively skilled and intend to play against peers then I think competitive = fun. That's why "war" stopped being a fun card game when I turned 5.

But if this is some sort of community argument, it's a stupid one.
1.Play games you like
2.Get good at them
3.Beat your friends
4.????
5.Post played-out memes on smashboards
6.Everybody has fun

 

[Battlecow]

Not so much a "community" argument as a "Nixxxon vs. the community" argument

And I never get to post played out memes. Every time I do people start complaining about how old they are. As if memes had a time limitation!

 

[ballin4life]

He seems to be maybe possibly arguing otherwise.

Dunno how serious he is.

I suppose I'm mostly talking about myself, but I think you're kinda weird if you disagree with me.

Here is what I really think. All else equal, more competitive is more fun.

I think there is a (somewhat bad) argument to be made for its objectivity; keep in mind that this is the guy who thinks Jigglypuff>Fox.

shhhh ... don't tell anyone ... but I might exaggerate my opinion to get more attention and replies from people

Spoiler

It's obviously Jiggs>>Fox

 

[NixxxoN]

I suppose I'm mostly talking about myself, but I think you're kinda weird if you disagree with me.

Here is what I really think. All else equal, more competitive is more fun.

Its relative, it depends of each one's taste. Some people like the more competitive games and some people don't. Some people take games so seriosuly and some people take them as only an entertaiment tool to have some fun, then games like mario kart are not very competitive and have a random/luck part, that can make everybody "half happy", the pro-competitive ones and the not pro-competitive ones.

 

[Sangoku]

NixxxoN why do you keep going back to that discussion? >_>

We all know you don't like the competitive aspect and that's why you don't play with us, no need to try to convince others they're wrong in being competitive.

 

[NixxxoN]

NixxxoN why do you keep going back to that discussion? >_>

We all know you don't like the competitive aspect and that's why you don't play with us, no need to try to convince others they're wrong in being competitive.

What? Im not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong... Im just saying that competitive = fun is not right, its relative. Not competitive can be fun too, its all about preferences.
And its not true tht i dont like the competitive aspect of SSB64 but I do believe that in a certain competitive level, this game becomes boring and not very fun, but maybe thats just me.

 

[t3h Icy]

I like Falcon.

 

[ballin4life]

Its relative, it depends of each one's taste. Some people like the more competitive games and some people don't. Some people take games so seriosuly and some people take them as only an entertaiment tool to have some fun, then games like mario kart are not very competitive and have a random/luck part, that can make everybody "half happy", the pro-competitive ones and the not pro-competitive ones.

Obviously it depends on one's preferences. I'm saying you have weird preferences if you disagree with me.

No one likes playing perfectly yet losing when an opponent happens to get a blue shell with a quarter lap to go.

 

[NixxxoN]

Obviously it depends on one's preferences. I'm saying you have weird preferences if you disagree with me.

No one likes playing perfectly yet losing when an opponent happens to get a blue shell with a quarter lap to go.

That doesnt happen that often, and if you play so "perfectly", then you would be able to win even if your opponent throws you a blue shell.... and you'll get your piece of luck later in another race surely.
You are basically talking on the point of view of a pretentius competitive player who wants to win all the time by taking it so seriously, but what about those who dont care about being so competitive, and just wanna have some fun and still want to have some chance? In the end games are supposed to entertain, and its good if they entertain the most people possible... the more competitive ones, and the not so competitive ones.

 

[ballin4life]

The fun comes from competition.

When I play Mario Party, I try to win. There is no "I don't care about being so competitive". The point of the game is to try to win.

 

[NixxxoN]

The fun comes from competition.

When I play Mario Party, I try to win. There is no "I don't care about being so competitive". The point of the game is to try to win.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, so you might try to enjoy games without this "i only have fun if i win" attitude.

 

[ballin4life]

Did I say I only have fun if I win?

I only have fun if I TRY to win.

That's why there is no point in playing a game like the card game War. Because you can't do anything to try to win.

 

[NixxxoN]

Did you change the argument there a bit? Of course people in general try to win, i was pointing out that not everyone HATES losing and some people can enjoy playing games without winning or needing to win.

 

[SilentSlayers]

I agree with Ballin', and I really like his point/analogy about the card game "War". If you can't try to win at a game, it isn't a game for me, that's for sure.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

You guys have seriously not played competitive war before

Anyways, being serious:

Is it not possible that you may both be right? Yes, playing a game competitively is fun. However, playing to win isn't everything. I've played games with random games with people where we just go for the flashiest things possible, and all the shenanigans we can do (e.g. jab kill on a recovering Jigglypuff, eating Ness's PK Thunder with a Kirby PK Fire, saving a 200+ percent Fox at the very bottom of Sector Z using dair-uair combo, resulting in suicide but saving the other guy, terrible DI resulting in a 0-999% combo, ending with a stupid move KO or Falcon punch, etc). We don't care who wins, and the result doesn't matter. We're still having fun making stupid combos that would be completely pointless in a match. Then again, sometimes we play this not trying to win variant competitively, where we each try to top the other guy's flashy thing or shenanigan with a better one.

But basically, I agree that (for the most part) competitive leads to having fun, but that's not the only way to have fun. Just fooling around with a game can be fun too.

Using War as an analogy is not exactly accurate, as there is no skill involved, and it just involves flipping cards non-stop... and the most excitement you can get from a game of war comes if you flip the same card like 5 times straight...

Don't know if that's what Nixxxon was saying or not, but that's what I think at least...

 

[NixxxoN]

Yup i dont know about that war game but it seems that its a terrible example.

Speaking of card games, most of them have the random/luck factor, that means they suck because you can lose by bad luck, even if you "play perfectly"?

 

[Battlecow]

Give yourself enough time and you'll win in the long run if you do play better than them.

 

[ballin4life]

Did you change the argument there a bit? Of course people in general try to win, i was pointing out that not everyone HATES losing and some people can enjoy playing games without winning or needing to win.

No. I specifically used the phrase "try to win".

You guys have seriously not played competitive war before

Anyways, being serious:

Is it not possible that you may both be right? Yes, playing a game competitively is fun. However, playing to win isn't everything. I've played games with random games with people where we just go for the flashiest things possible, and all the shenanigans we can do (e.g. jab kill on a recovering Jigglypuff, eating Ness's PK Thunder with a Kirby PK Fire, saving a 200+ percent Fox at the very bottom of Sector Z using dair-uair combo, resulting in suicide but saving the other guy, terrible DI resulting in a 0-999% combo, ending with a stupid move KO or Falcon punch, etc). We don't care who wins, and the result doesn't matter. We're still having fun making stupid combos that would be completely pointless in a match. Then again, sometimes we play this not trying to win variant competitively, where we each try to top the other guy's flashy thing or shenanigan with a better one.

But basically, I agree that (for the most part) competitive leads to having fun, but that's not the only way to have fun. Just fooling around with a game can be fun too.

Using War as an analogy is not exactly accurate, as there is no skill involved, and it just involves flipping cards non-stop... and the most excitement you can get from a game of war comes if you flip the same card like 5 times straight...

Don't know if that's what Nixxxon was saying or not, but that's what I think at least...

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win.html

Anyway, you are still competing, although the rules for determining the winner may not be the same as the usual rules.

Yup i dont know about that war game but it seems that its a terrible example.

Speaking of card games, most of them have the random/luck factor, that means they suck because you can lose by bad luck, even if you "play perfectly"?

Card games do have a lot of BS luck elements. But some of them manage to be good despite that, specifically if you play enough games.

 

[ciaza]

EDIT: nvm I have uni I don't want to get caught up in this >.<

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ballin, in my example, we are not competing the same way. In fact, we aren't competing at all. We don't care who wins, the stock count doesn't change anything (aside from I usually change my character every game). Essencially, we could instead put the time limit to infinite and when we get bored, turn off the game without looking at the scores at the end.

I agree with you that competitiveness leads to fun, but all I'm saying is that it's not the only way to have fun.

 

[The Star King]

In a shocking turn of events, I'm going to have to agree with NixxxoN here.

Plenty of people don't have fun with something being competitive, especially girls. Don't make generalizations based on your own personal preferences. And no, ballin, it's not weird. I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who think you're "weird" for playing a video game competitively. This is coming from someone who probably puts more effort into this game competitively than most people here, and enjoys competition above anything else.

Also agree 100% with Blue Yoshi.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

If a game doesn't have a competitive element to it, I get bored fairly quickly, eg. 1p games.