The New Tier List

[Deleted member]

Jigglypuff can 0 to death a number of characters every single time with a single grab

i think only 1 person is capable of doing that everytime though and doesn't represent the current "metagame" simply because people are incapable of using her to her full potential

 

[undyinglight]

I have a quick question. Was this tier list derived entirely from the match-up chart with the exception of Jigglypuff being over Ness?

 

[ballin4life]

Jigglypuff can 0 to death a number of characters every single time with a single grab

i think only 1 person is capable of doing that everytime though and doesn't represent the current "metagame" simply because people are incapable of using her to her full potential

Maybe from 0, but her grab is lame at mid percents versus light characters

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I have a quick question. Was this tier list derived entirely from the match-up chart with the exception of Jigglypuff being over Ness?

it was a combination of the matchup chart and the people who voted/chatted. It was open to virtually anyone who posted. (of course many opinions were swayed by personal beliefs but its an overall good list)

 

[Blue Yoshi]

At the time the tier list was made, Jigglypuff was above Ness. But since the matchup chart, we changed some match-ups, resulting in Ness being over Jiggs (the new tier list-ish). So technically, Ness is above Jiggs in the tier list... but no one has edited any posts to state that.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Maybe from 0, but her grab is lame at mid percents versus light characters

Jiggly sucks against low tier. Also, bthrow ftw.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

very hard but possible to gimp him

There are some even steven matchups, and yet again, the player is more important than the character

I repeat: IMPOSSIBLE to gimp. It just isn't going to happen unless you are much better than your opponent. (which makes the gimp more to do with how well you can read your opponent, and is therefore due to the fact that you are probably better than him/her, and not due to how good the character is)
Pretty much every other character's recovery is ridiculously predictable and abusable.

Also, if you are the same standard as the person you are playing, and he picks pikachu when you pick someone like mario or DK, or pretty much any of the rest of the cast, you are probably going to lose. No ifs, no buts. Pikachu is just plain better than the rest of the characters, and if people can't actually see this, then I feel bad for them.

 

[ballin4life]

Can you define gimp? Because I am getting confused as to what you're saying about gimps.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

Can you define gimp? Because I am getting confused as to what you're saying about gimps.

basicly jumping off after someone or hitting them with a projectile so they fall farther than there recovery will let them get back, works at any percent.

 

[DMoogle]

I define a gimp as basically an easy kill/kill at low percent.

You can gimp Pika with Mario/Luigi with repeated d-airs off the ledge (or with Mario's down-B), or with Ness with 2/mayyyybe 3 d-airs, Kirby can gimp with a fast-falled d-air.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Can you define gimp? Because I am getting confused as to what you're saying about gimps.

I would describe it as killing the character at low percent by getting him off the stage and edgeguarding, making it impossible to reach the stage.

Preferably in the gayest way possible of course.

PS: YES, I have SO much hatred for pikachu. He's like ssbm jigglypuff only gayer, if possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu is gimpable with Fox

next to the edge do a jc shine and immediately run off and shine again

if you are facing a homo pikachu who gimps you i suggest practicing this alot and gimping him back

 

[rpotts]

Pikachu is gimpable with Fox

next to the edge do a jc shine and immediately run off and shine again

if you are facing a homo pikachu who gimps you i suggest practicing this alot and gimping him back

Can't a pika with a dub jump still recover? and doesn't shine send pika too far to get a second shine in without the combo breaking? I'm not sure, I don't have the timing to test it myself.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Pikachu can be gimped. It's harder than the rest of the cast, but definitely possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't a pika with a dub jump still recover? and doesn't shine send pika too far to get a second shine in without the combo breaking? I'm not sure, I don't have the timing to test it myself.

pikachu barely can't make it back


and if you do a clean jc shine and quickly run off and shine again when pikachu is fairly low and still in hitstun the combo won't break

 

[Yonder]

I personally think Luigi should be bumped to the bottom of B tier and Link and Samus share C to themselves, since those two are in their own league of crap.

Or put Link and Samus in D and Luigi in his own C tier

And I think Luigi could move up past DK to 9th, and have Ness go to 8th and Jiggs 7th.

Just my two cents though...

 

[undyinglight]

it was a combination of the matchup chart and the people who voted/chatted. It was open to virtually anyone who posted. (of course many opinions were swayed by personal beliefs but its an overall good list)

Ok thank you for clearing that up. It is a flawed method to just make a tier list based off of a match-up chart. I was a little concerned at first when I saw how similar it was to the match-up chart but as long as you guys took other things into account it is all good.

 

[ballin4life]

Why is it flawed to make a tier list based off a match up chart?

The tier list is basically matchups and then accounts for the importance of each matchup (so having a good matchup vs pika moves you higher than having a good matchup vs samus)

 

[MattNF]

It is a flawed method to just make a tier list based off of a match-up chart.

uh, what

10

 

[asianaussie]

I personally think Luigi should be bumped to the bottom of B tier and Link and Samus share C to themselves, since those two are in their own league of crap.

Or put Link and Samus in D and Luigi in his own C tier

And I think Luigi could move up past DK to 9th, and have Ness go to 8th and Jiggs 7th.

Just my two cents though...

Link can outcamp everyone not named Mario and Fox, and even then Mario can be outcamped on Hyrule. He isn't THAT bad, it just sucks that he can be thrown 2cm from the ledge and not recover.

Aside from Jiggs/Ness, Link and Luigi are the closest in terms of matchup values, so I'm guessing you're either biased towards Luigi or haven't played good Links.

Samus, on the other hand...

 

[Yonder]

so I'm guessing you're either biased towards Luigi or haven't played good Links.

Eh...Ive never seen a good Link and I saw Isai play Luigi really well

 

[rpotts]

Eh...Ive never seen a good Link and I saw Isai play Luigi really well

lol link is one of isai's favorite characters (and if i remember right link is his fav char to ditto) and he is incredible with him. Imo his link is more impressive than his luigi, although it's hard to tell since all his chars are so ****ing unbelievable. Watch his recent matches of link (or any of his matches, really) and you will understand.

 

[Daedatheus]

Watch his recent matches of link (or any of his matches, really) and you will understand.

The 4 matches between Isai's Link and Boom's Falcon are hands-down some of my favourite SSB matches ever.

Yonder, you should watch them.

 

[NovaSmash]

my falcon is top tier

 

[undyinglight]

Why is it flawed to make a tier list based off a match up chart?

The tier list is basically matchups and then accounts for the importance of each matchup (so having a good matchup vs pika moves you higher than having a good matchup vs samus)

uh, what

10

Let me explain what I meant. I have an example from the game Street Fighter 4. Just looking at the match-ups in that game and adding up the numbers from the match-up charts the character Zangief is one of the best in the game. However he has weak matches against the characters of Sagat(one of, if not the most frequently used character in tournaments) and Blanka(another very popular character who you will often run into at tournaments.) So overall Zangief maybe very good against the majority of the cast, however he will often be knocked out by either Sagat or Blanka.

I apologize for not using an example from SSB as I am no expert in SSB. Zangief may not even have a rough equivalent who is in the same boat in SSB, however I state this example only to illustrate the point I am trying to make.

 

[Alphicans]

Sorry, I am not gonna read the thread, but what made ness go from 3rd best to 4th worst? I am new to 64 smash, but I am starting to like it more and more, and I prefer ness over everyone else, and he seems he has the attributes of a solid character.

 

[The Star King]

Let me explain what I meant. I have an example from the game Street Fighter 4. Just looking at the match-ups in that game and adding up the numbers from the match-up charts the character Zangief is one of the best in the game. However he has weak matches against the characters of Sagat(one of, if not the most frequently used character in tournaments) and Blanka(another very popular character who you will often run into at tournaments.) So overall Zangief maybe very good against the majority of the cast, however he will often be knocked out by either Sagat or Blanka.

I apologize for not using an example from SSB as I am no expert in SSB. Zangief may not even have a rough equivalent who is in the same boat in SSB, however I state this example only to illustrate the point I am trying to make.

There isn't really a good example in Smash64, but in Melee, if you add up the values from the matchup chart, Sheik is technically the best character in the game. However, she is above Fox mostly because she ***** the low tiers harder, which are pretty much a non-factor. If you look at Sheik's counters, such as Fox and Falco, they are very common, so Sheik suffers.

A perfect tier list would be: How good the matchups are multiplied by the frequency of the character in tournaments.

 

[asianaussie]

Sorry, I am not gonna read the thread, but what made ness go from 3rd best to 4th worst? I am new to 64 smash, but I am starting to like it more and more, and I prefer ness over everyone else, and he seems he has the attributes of a solid character.

We seriously need an FAQ thread for questions like this.

Ness seems solid, but good players will never let him recover - his recovery is slow, easy to edgeguard and very predictable. His DJC gives him a little sphere of priority...and that's about it.

Bait out an U-Tilt and you can take advantage of the lag. His grabs remain powerful, and his spike is, in terms of sheer knockback, the best in-game. His projectiles are nigh useless and his smashes are basically edgeguard/mindgame only. He was severely overestimated in the first tier list, where grabs/spikes were valued far more than they are now.

I merely covered the basic groundwork - there are lots more things that bumped him down. Don't let this discourage you - Ness is still very viable competitively, you just have to be a bit more careful than if you were playing, say, Pika.

 

[ballin4life]

Let me explain what I meant. I have an example from the game Street Fighter 4. Just looking at the match-ups in that game and adding up the numbers from the match-up charts the character Zangief is one of the best in the game. However he has weak matches against the characters of Sagat(one of, if not the most frequently used character in tournaments) and Blanka(another very popular character who you will often run into at tournaments.) So overall Zangief maybe very good against the majority of the cast, however he will often be knocked out by either Sagat or Blanka.

I apologize for not using an example from SSB as I am no expert in SSB. Zangief may not even have a rough equivalent who is in the same boat in SSB, however I state this example only to illustrate the point I am trying to make.

The tier list made is based on matchup numbers compensated for matchup importance. Basically, a good matchup versus the best character is worth more than a good matchup versus the worst character. A bit more of the math is explained in the first post of the original matchup thread here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241670

 

[Kefit]

Pika can also be gimped by stuff like DK down-b into giant punch and Jiggly combos. Maybe not as eminently "gimpy" as off the edge gimps, but they accomplish the same thing - low percent kills resulting from a single hit that don't require a great deal of skill to pull off.

 

[The Star King]

Way to restate my post Ballin =/

I find it difficult to define gimps, but I wouldn't call down+B -> Giant Punch or Puff combos gimps. I guess... gimps to me are low percent kills that are "anti-climactic", mostly edgeguarding silliness.

I still described it poorly lol >_>

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry, I am not gonna read the thread, but what made ness go from 3rd best to 4th worst? I am new to 64 smash, but I am starting to like it more and more, and I prefer ness over everyone else, and he seems he has the attributes of a solid character.

believe it or not 4th worst in a game like smash 64 is still very solid

thats because every character *****

 

[ballin4life]

Way to restate my post Ballin =/

Huh? You said "a perfect tier list would be matchups multiplied by tournament frequency"

I said "the tier list that we have is matchups multiplied by the tier placing of the other character"

If anything I was restating my own post (#578)

 

[t3h Icy]

For those mentioning that Ness and Jigglypuff have swapped ranks since this topic was made, do note that the chart is still being edited (slightly and slowly), and as soon as there's another update, the ranks will switch back seeing that Ness' match-ups are looking to drop.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

I personally think Luigi should be bumped to the bottom of B tier and Link and Samus share C to themselves, since those two are in their own league of crap.

Link can outcamp everyone not named Mario and Fox, and even then Mario can be outcamped on Hyrule. He isn't THAT bad, it just sucks that he can be thrown 2cm from the ledge and not recover.

Aside from Jiggs/Ness, Link and Luigi are the closest in terms of matchup values, so I'm guessing you're either biased towards Luigi or haven't played good Links.

Samus, on the other hand...

wow, no love for samus. i cant wait to record some matches and put them up so inexperienced players could stop posting stoopid things like these

 

[DMoogle]

wow, no love for samus. i cant wait to record some matches and put them up so inexperienced players could stop posting stoopid things like these

Do you ever use Samus vs. me? I can't remember, and I always forget to ask...

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Do you ever use Samus vs. me? I can't remember, and I always forget to ask...

no. i dont play online, only console. i just never got into it. but my samus is pretty good, for a level 5B person

im gonna be goin up to that tourney in washington next month, and i think jel said we'll be recording, so expect some pretty cool videos soon and a movement by samus up the tier list

 

[DMoogle]

Whoops, sorry, mixed you up with someone else.

 

[The Star King]

Wow you're optimistic, do you seriously think you're SO AMAZING that Samus will move up in the tier list? Really? That good?

Good luck beating any competent Fox or Pika with Samus, it's pretty much impossible unless you are a much better player, in which case you will probably do much better with different characters.

 

[SheerMadness]

Too bad Darth Rancorous didn't get to play me when he was in Orlando. It would have been fun to see how he dealt with Yoshi being able to parry all of Samus' approaches.