The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[IC3R]

lol

I figured that the DRAWP Recovery would be rather unorthodox, but it's still pretty **** cool, am I right?

Hmm, so Norfair really gives Ganon that much of an advantage, eh? I'll be sure to list it as such...

 

[hyperstation]

Alright, closing arguments.

First, props to IC3R for a great write-up. I don't give a sh*t about what numbers you chose as that is obviously the least important part to me. I don't care if an opponent comes into my match-up thinking it's 80-20 or 50-50...the point is, if they don't know how to handle the match-up, they're gonna eat boot. So that's why I'm impressed with your write-up: because it has the information that a lot of Kirby's clearly didn't know before this discussion (not a dis, so don't read it like one).

Props to Asdioh for being one of the only other Kirby mains who was trying to contribute consistently and without bias. You guys could learn something from him. In general, "I'm gonna add "Character X" to the list of Characters not to do discussions with" is NOT a helpful comment as some of you said and supported.

And everyone should read the green post made by dabuz a couple pages back. This guy has not only played one of the best Ganon's around, but he explains in detail how both Kirby and Ganon are going to have to change their playstyles to accommodate the moveset of their opponent. Instead of making comments about how the green text or the length of his sentences bothers you, disregarding any of the content of his writing, GO LEARN SOMETHING. Seriously, good post, dabuz.

Finally, because I saw it brought up and I f*cking wrote this sh*t, I'll mention Buffered Dash Canceling (BDC). I'm a serious contributor to advancing Ganon's metagame. See my thread, DAD's SMASH LAB on the Ganon boards to see what I've been cooking up. BDCing isn't worth mentioning in any argument in specific because it's not a technique that's going to affect the opponent (such as chainchoking) so much as it affects the Ganon. It's one of many techniques I've developed for Ganon which increases his mobility. The reason I mention it after saying it's probably not worth mentioning (besides giving myself some shameless plugging) is because BDCing, in addition to several other techniques I and others have developed, makes Ganon's mobility greater and more versatile. I encourage you guys to check out my thread which I linked to before and check out my youtube page at www.youtube.com/ganonDAD . Visiting my page in addition to checking out some vids of top tier Ganons (Kosk, Zeonstar, Ray Kalm, etc) will help you understand your opponent better, because as it stands, I think a bunch of you are gravely misinformed and think fighting a Ganon in 2009 is the same as it was on launch week nearly a year ago. A LOOOT has changed.

Cheers, Kirby mains. If any of you need your mind changed about just how hard it can be to fight Ganon, PM me and I'll meet you online.

<3 DAD

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Im sure the lag would be more hard to fight than ganon lol


MK next plz

 

[hyperstation]

Im sure the lag would be more hard to fight than ganon lol


MK next plz

Oh COME ON, man. Grow up and actually contribute something to this conversation. You've been such a waste of space during the whole debate and you just can't help yourself, even in the end. It's hilarious that you think lag is one sided, also. At last I checked, Ganon has wifi lag pretty much built into half of his moveset OFFLINE. Wifi is HELL, alright, but the use for it is to learn a match-up and then apply that knowledge to offline matches.

 

[IC3R]

I don't care if an opponent comes into my match-up thinking it's 80-20 or 50-50...the point is, if they don't know how to handle the match-up, they're gonna eat boot.

Amen.

So that's why I'm impressed with your write-up: because it has the information that a lot of Kirby's clearly didn't know before this discussion (not a dis, so don't read it like one).

It helps when you play as Ganon as well :3

 

[fromundaman]

@From: Yea i read it...did you?

If you read it, how did you miss my name showing up on every page of it?

Im sure the lag would be more hard to fight than ganon lol

Ganon suffers from lag a LOT more than Kirby...

Seriously, you should just stop. All you do is troll, and when you DO give info, it's info that has already been shown to be wrong.

Kirby beats Ganondorf. Who cares if Koskinator beat someone online.

65-35 Kirby

Weren't you one of the ones saying that Suspect and Gonzo would show Ganons how one sided the matchup is via Wifi battles?


Jesus Kirbies... Stop with the Marth Board syndrome.



Anyway, as Scribble said, the RPG outranges Kirby's grab with roughly the same speed, and it's not at all hard to use...

IC3R, your write-up is good. I'd add that both Usmash and Dtilt have IASA frames, as does Ganon's spotdodge (I believe, but I could be wrong.), and I think his jab as well.
Oh, and NEVER try to Bair stagespike a Ganon on the edge. Ledge hopped Dair will beat it every time.
Also, are the orange stages the ones we shouldn't pick? If so then good, if not then ouch, wrong, as those are great Ganon stages.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

If you read it, how did you miss my name showing up on every page of it?



Ganon suffers from lag a LOT more than Kirby...

Seriously, you should just stop. All you do is troll, and when you DO give info, it's info that has already been shown to be wrong.



Weren't you one of the ones saying that Suspect and Gonzo would show Ganons how one sided the matchup is via Wifi battles?


Jesus Kirbies... Stop with the Marth Board syndrome.

That post had nothing to do with you, wtf are you talking about.


what was wrong about me info?

Gonzo got beat they didnt beat/nor play me yet

 

[hyperstation]

IC3R, your write-up is good. I'd add that both Usmash and Dtilt have IASA frames, as does Ganon's spotdodge (I believe, but I could be wrong.), and I think his jab as well.
Oh, and NEVER try to Bair stagespike a Ganon on the edge. Ledge hopped Dair will beat it every time.
Also, are the orange stages the ones we shouldn't pick? If so then good, if not then ouch, wrong, as those are great Ganon stages.

You're right about Spot Dodge. Check out my video on Buffered Dash Canceling to see how you might use those IASA frames to ****. You can slide moves forward out of the Spot Dodge because the IASA frames occur during the forward most part of his dodge. That is, you interrupt Ganon's animation during his forward most stance and can segue into moves that carry the momentum forward, ESPECIALLY FTilt. Opponent sees a Spot Dodge and either rushes in or shield drops to punish it then eats an FTilt with added range due to the momentum carried Out of Spot Dodge. I have a whole freaking moveset I'm developing out of spot dodge right now, so watch for that video to drop. I mean...Spot dodge is going to be a very scary prospect for opponents of Ganon in the near future. It's getting WEIRD.

 

[IC3R]

I'm guessing that U-Smash should get an honorable mention in the "Watch out for" section? I'd think so. Also adding the part about IASA frames.

Also, DAD, would that be Demonic Step -> F-Tilt?

I want to make sure all of my information is accurate.

 

[Lord Viper]

Norfair is one of Ganondorf's best stages, so it'd be unwise to counterpick it against him (no matter how good Kirby is on there).

☆ That is true, this stage helps alot of characters with low jumping power or Up-B's that's hard to grab the edge with. Zero Suit Samus or Samus case, they can tehter recover on six part's of the stage. ☆

 

[hyperstation]

I'm guessing that U-Smash should get an honorable mention in the "Watch out for" section? I'd think so. Also adding the part about IASA frames.

Also, DAD, would that be Demonic Step -> F-Tilt?

No. Not at all. However, I've found the holy grail. I've been developing a whole demonic moveset, but the thing is...you only use HALF of the demonic step. The whole spin is just a novelty, but HALF of the spin, which pivots you and slides you sets up for crazy mindgames like SD->pivot->iDA. I get kills this way all the time now, and the range is HUGE.

Using the IASA frames of SD is different though. You interrupt the SD at it's forward most point with your buffered move and if you're holding forward during it, you'll get a slide. FTilt is the easiest and thus most effective, but you can get extra range on Jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, Dsmash and others. It's pretty dope, especially for Ftilt, because I've found that Ftilt so often is just barely out of reach of where I need it to be, and it's almost always fresh for super low percentage kills/gimps.

 

[cba]

ok, something else to keep in mind is that ganon had double dair to upsmash combo at low percents for easy 60% on kirby, so thats somethign else to watch out for,

and a1lion, most ganons expect fsmash at decent percents and will space you so good luck getting in that fsmash, sure, if you hit ganon is good at gone at decent percents but trust me, thats hard to do,

im actually gonna change my mind to 55-45 on this matchup, because when i played zeonstar it was ridiculously close but i see how good ganons can do in this matchup, mainly because ganons has great OOS options and a gquick jab makes getting grabs on ganon when they get used to it hard to do


(and yesh, this is not green text for once, happy...)

fixed.
Oh em gee
all i added was a "/", for you dumbaszes without the quotes.

 

[IC3R]

Ah, okay DAD.

That certainly does sound dangerous and pretty dope. Seriously, at the rate you guys discover techniques, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ganondorf in E-Tier in five to six months.

Name for the SD -> IASA'd F-Tilt: The "Sparta Slide"

 

[~Gonzo~]

don't uall have a thread for that stuff, not to be rude, just organized

 

[SheerMadness]

Weren't you one of the ones saying that Suspect and Gonzo would show Ganons how one sided the matchup is via Wifi battles?

Hell no I didn't. Why on earth would I care about people playing online?

Kirby is a much better overall character than Ganondorf I don't see how any can disagree with that.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I think it was that A1ion guy that said that, he brought up something about crew battling, me and gonzo taking on the entire ganon board via wifi. I said i dont play wifi anymore but was willing to do it just to shut this **** up as long as the connection was good.

And to answer what sheer said, I dont see how people can think that either but they main ganon so of course they are gonna be on the defensive, blinded by the obvious.

 

[Asdioh]

Kirby is a much better overall character than Ganondorf I don't see how any can disagree with that.

How do you know? From the way I see it, Ganondorf has a decent chance against some of the best characters (like Snake) but with a totally different playstyle than Kirby.

But it doesn't matter; we're discussing the specific Kirby vs. Ganondorf matchup.

55-45 Kirby's favor is a scary thought for me, because I came into this thinking it would be 65-35 minimum, but if top level Ganons are as different as it sounds, then maybe it's true.

And all this AT discussion on the past page went over my head XD darn acronyms.

I wish Kirby had some useful ATs.... >_>
He literally has almost nothing of use. Sure there are some minor things, but most of them are totally impractical. It sounds like Ganondorf actually has useful stuff though.

 

[fromundaman]

Hell no I didn't. Why on earth would I care about people playing online?

Kirby is a much better overall character than Ganondorf I don't see how any can disagree with that.

Sorry, my mistake then.

Also, yes, yes he is. However, we are not discussing them in an overall sense, and in this particular matchup, they come pretty close. See the last few pages of the discussion (you know, the ones where people actually presented information rather than just 'lulzganonsucks').

One last thing, As hard as it can be, if you're careless and/or recovering from below, Ganon actually does have tools to edgeguard Kirby (Nothing like how well Kirby can potentially edgeguard Ganon, but they're still quite effective).

 

[IC3R]

Okay, yeah. Sorry about the previous page or so, I got a little excited *grabs tissue*

Can we pretty much say that the vs. Ganon match-up has pretty much been concluded (other than an actual ratio)?

I can definitly see this match-up being (Kirby) 55 :: 45 (Ganondorf). It would be more extreme if it weren't for all of Ganon's priority and ATs

 

[hyperstation]

don't uall have a thread for that stuff, not to be rude, just organized

I'm not sure at whom this is directed nor what the purpose of asking it is, but we're actually quite organized.

Start at Swoops Guide on Murdering Sh*t, Gleam's Compact List of Ganon Techs, and Ray Kalm's Q&A Thread.

Then move on to Ray Kalm's Match-up thread because the way in which you play Ganon changes radically depending on who you're fighting.

Finally, take a look at threads like mine, DAD's SMASH LAB, and other metagame advancement threads like Chainchoking, Reverse Pivot Grabbing, Flipman, Z1gman Comboing, Flight of Ganon, etc.

I'll see you in a few weeks once a few of you decide you want to play Ganon. There's a lot of info out there.

How do you know? From the way I see it, Ganondorf has a decent chance against some of the best characters (like Snake) but with a totally different playstyle than Kirby.

But it doesn't matter; we're discussing the specific Kirby vs. Ganondorf matchup.

55-45 Kirby's favor is a scary thought for me, because I came into this thinking it would be 65-35 minimum, but if top level Ganons are as different as it sounds, then maybe it's true.

And all this AT discussion on the past page went over my head XD darn acronyms.

I wish Kirby had some useful ATs.... >_>
He literally has almost nothing of use. Sure there are some minor things, but most of them are totally impractical. It sounds like Ganondorf actually has useful stuff though.

Well, it's nice to see you came around. To be fair, a lot of these ATs aren't at their optimal peak yet. A handful of them that I discovered I'm not really sure if anyone else is using yet, but what's exciting about Ganon's metagame is that it has SO much crazy sh*t happening and everyone is working on different things. 2009 has been a crazy year for Ganon so far. Ganon in '09...YES WE CAN.

Okay, yeah. Sorry about the previous page or so, I got a little excited *grabs tissue*

Can we pretty much say that the vs. Ganon match-up has pretty much been concluded (other than an actual ratio)?

I can definitly see this match-up being (Kirby) 55 :: 45 (Ganondorf). It would be more extreme if it weren't for all of Ganon's priority and ATs

Sounds about right. I'll settle for anything in between 60-40 and 50-50, wherever you guys want it. I don't care about the scores as the information is far more important, and you've done a good job summarizing it, IC3R.

<3 DAD

PS- I think Kirby's a dope character, so if anything I said in defense of Ganon lead you to believe otherwise, that's not the case. I just had to come in here and set the record straight about my boy Ganon before things got too out of hand.

 

[A1lion835]

I also agree with 55:45 kirby. When I came in here, I'm thinking "lulz kirby always wins ganon sucks", but you guys have a surprising amount of stuff... it seems like we're gonna be alternating the **** a lot in this (we're gonna **** you with grabs, you're gonna **** us with more stuff than I care to write...)

Also, can you work on an AT that makes the bathroom run even more awesome?

 

[hyperstation]

Also, can you work on an AT that makes the bathroom run even more awesome?

I'm on it.

 

[A1lion835]

I'm on it.

When do you think it'll be ready?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

pm's please

 

[A1lion835]

pm's please

What? You want us to pm you?...

 

[SmileyStation]

55:45 sounds good to me.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Geez, I'm such a humble Ganny lol

Anyways, IC3R, nice summary, I believe that sums it up nicely. I don't mind Frigate but I can understand where that comes from. So it's 55-45 then? That or 60-40 sounds good.

And Asdioh, it's been too long. I have gone through many Ganon changes and also placed 3rd at a tourney I went to. I wantsa Brawl lol. But I've stopped Wifi due to the button lag I was actually trying out Kirby cause of your style lol. It was fine but I couldn't hang with the puffball so I went to Lucas.

But yeah, that's all.

Edit: I leave you with this: TurkeyDorf

 

[IC3R]

Why, thank you, Sergeant! *salutes*

So far, A1lion835, Asidoh, SmileyStation, and myself say the ratio should be 55 :: 45, in Kirby's favor. DAD says he'll settle for anything in between 60 :: 40 and 50 :: 50. Practically five votes.

There's still a lot of people who can get their two cents in, so I'll give it about a day. Around this time tomorrow, I will: finalize the match-up ratio; make any other necessary edits to my summary; and send it to Maestro via PM so he can update the OP.

Get the word in, people! Next candidate for discussion:

That sound good?

 

[A1lion835]

*realizes he barely has matchup experience against anyone, but brawls a lot*

 

[Lord Viper]

Get the word in, people! Next candidate for discussion:

That sound good?

☆ Yea, we need to redo Wario because the Wario boards got him and Kirby even, and we have Wario as our disadvantage??? ☆

 

[MK26]

Ic3r, i love you no homo
It'll be homo if you do all the summaries from pika to ZSS

In other news, ZSS is done. I'll give ganon one more day before we move on to another character. Who'll it be? (not wario,i want to get through all the matchups before revisiting old ones, and either way wario is an agreed neutral)

 

[~Gonzo~]

eh my final verdict, anyone who has dared to use ganon in tourney has never beaten me. and i never won by less than two stocks. But the same guy switches to marth and i'm focued on every single percent and hit. That shows me that if in a neutral matchup we are dead even and i can two stock the same guys main which he admitted then i seriously this matchup is 60-40 in favor of kirby, no more, no less.

Thats my matchup experience in plain logic.

 

[Asdioh]

Also, can you work on an AT that makes the bathroom run even more awesome?

Wait, what's this?

And Asdioh, it's been too long. I have gone through many Ganon changes and also placed 3rd at a tourney I went to. I wantsa Brawl lol. But I've stopped Wifi due to the button lag I was actually trying out Kirby cause of your style lol. It was fine but I couldn't hang with the puffball so I went to Lucas.

That's cool. I don't do wifi either due to the fact that I don't have a Wii here at college >_>

but I only live 45 minutes away from home so I go back on some weekends. The problem with that is my computer is here so I can't communicate with people..


Week 1: Snake - Page 1 to page 2

Week 2: Marth - page 3 to page 13

Week 3: Matchup Review - page 13 to page 18

Week 4: Game & Watch - Page 18 to page 20

Week 5: King Dedede - Page 20 to page 22 and Matchup Thread Export

Week 6: Yoshi - Page 22 to page 23

Week 7: Diddy Kong - Page 23 to page 25 and Matchup Thread Export

Week 8: Pikachu - Page 25 to page 27

Week 9: Falco - Page 27 to page 30

Week 10: Lucario - Page 30 to page 32

Week 11: Toon Link - Page 32 to page 33

Week 12: Wario - Page 33 to page 35

Week 13: Wolf - Page 35 to page 38

Week 13: Zelda/Sheik - Page 35 to page 38

Week 14: Pit - Page 38 to page 41

Week 14: Lucas - Page 38 to page 41 (may need a revisit later)

Week 15: Pokémon Trainer - Page 41 to page 43

Week 16: Ike - Page 43 to page 53

Week 17a: Fox - Page 53 to page 57

Week 17b: R.O.B. - Page 57 to page 61

Week 18a: Olimar - Page 61 to page 64

Week 18b: Peach - Page 64 to page 43 <--lolwut


Just want you to know that these formats suck for people like myself who have it set to 40 posts per page D:


Are some of these old enough that they need to be revisited?

Anyway, lemme think... I don't see Donkey Kong up there, and that is by no means an easy matchup.


I see Lucas, but not Ness...

I see Bowser and Link haven't been done in a while, and they're both listed as 70-30 Kirby's advantage. I think that is grossly overrated. If you play Sliq's Bowser or Legan's Link like I have, you'll see what I mean.

Jigglypuff?

There's also Ice Climbers...and Metaknight.

...I'm honestly thinking Metaknight needs to be discussed. -_-

 

[Dabuz]

eh my final verdict, anyone who has dared to use ganon in tourney has never beaten me. and i never won by less than two stocks. But the same guy switches to marth and i'm focued on every single percent and hit. That shows me that if in a neutral matchup we are dead even and i can two stock the same guys main which he admitted then i seriously this matchup is 60-40 in favor of kirby, no more, no less.

Thats my matchup experience in plain logic.

ok, and my oli can two stock most mks(SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE) and luigis(big disadvantage) easily, destroy dks( my advantage) yet i can barely beat ddds(which i have good advantage against) so, basically, thats my counter logic, you can be great at one neutral or advantaged matchup yet be horrible at other

 

[Asdioh]

heh, that's true too.

I've never beaten a Diddy Kong (supposed to be 60-40 Kirby's advantage lawl)

I have no trouble against ROB (Kirby's disadvantage, supposedly)

Do a barrel roll (press Z or R twice)


I think we should discuss Captain Falcon and see if they have some crazy unknown ATs that somehow give him an advantage over us :D

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

you obviously have not played a good metaknight. And no disrespect but this is olimar we are talking about...no one really likes to play olimars >_>

EDIT: kirby to diddy should be 45:55 imo

 

[Koskinator]

Asdioh, go on aim kthx.

 

[SaltyKracka]

And let's not forget Salty......?

After all, I was the one who basically began this whole ****storm in order to get you the other G-dorfs here and edumacate y'all.

Nah, but seriously, these last few pages are what a matchup discussion SHOULD be. I'm glad everything got settled down and we agree on the ratio.

 

[Delta Z]

@Suspect: I'm gonna side with the Kirby boards on Diddy. Hiss main threat is his bananas, and since Kirby focuses on his air game and has good mobility in the air the bananas don't really do much. Diddy can combo, but Kirby is floaty, and therefore hard to combo. Kirby can kill earlier than Diddy can.

Anyone said anything about ZSS yet? Paralyzer->Air Hammer = ****.

 

[choice_brawler]

Anyone said anything about ZSS yet? Paralyzer->Air Hammer = ****.

Yea we wrapped up with ZSS...next char as CF sounds fine. I got tons of match up experience against that guy xD.

55-45 sounds about right after looking over all the vids and reading up on what the ganons said. Seriously you ganons seem to be on the rise quickly in 09. I better get in some match up experience before i get ***** by one in a tourney.