The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[SaltyKracka]

lol, does that mean I (and now you) am one of the few that went into the Ganon matchup discussion and actually read what they wrote? That's why I know what this whole "chainchoking" business is about.

I've never really played a great Ganon though...everytime I get matched up against him, I just see one big, moving target. And that needs to change

edit: good post Dabuz.
After reading all your green, and looking at my own post, the colors are funky @_@

Argh, Dabuz, stop posting like that. It hurts my eyes and mind when I try to comprehend.

Also, Asdioh, I would've been glad to play you on Wifi, if you had your Wii.

Either way, I'd be perfectly glad to give any Kirby some Ganon experience online.

 

[MK26]

[/COLOR="Lime"][/FONT="Courier New"]
I have fought a really good Ganon before (Zeonstar, he's ridiculous with Ganon) and I'd say this matchup is 60-40 Kirby. Even though Kirby has great grab combos and such, he'll have to rely on b-air alot because Ganon outranges Kirby on the ground.

Ganon's specials have great ground priority that completely wreck Kirby on the ground, so it's easier to rack damage with aerials. Obviously Ganon's a heavy, so don't expect to kill him early unless you gimp/kirbycide him.

However, Ganon can kill Kirby at 100% easily, and, if they are smart with spacing and punishing, they will often be able to thunderstomp or u-air your approach.

Ganon can't do much to Kirby while in the air. As Kirby you have two options: aggressive air barrage vs. defensive bait-and-punish. Another thing I find annoys Ganons is spamming up-B.

The main trouble you'll be having is Ganon's kill power: he can kill you in the early 60s, and most of the time you'll be dead by 100. You won't be killing good Ganons until ridiculous percents if they have good DI and use fast-falled u-airs to momentum cancel, unless you get an early f.o.p.; a good Ganon will often know this info and try to counter your tactics, making it hard to kill him while if he gets a few good hits you're done.

tl;dr: Kirby can easily rack damage on Ganon and he can't do much until you want to kill him (because he can play defensive and not worry about getting comboed). Most of the time you will die going for the kill if you don't go about it smartly. Imo, the matchup is 60-40 in Kirby's adv

World's longest Fix'd

 

[MK26]

Either way, I'd be perfectly glad to give any Kirby some Ganon experience online.

I would, if my brothers hadn't commandeered my Wii while I was out.

EDIT: dammit double post

DOUBLEEDIT: i hide my sig in shame

 

[momochuu]

Green walls of text...are painful. @_@


Muy painful.

 

[IC3R]

Kirby vs. Ganon Summary

Okay, here's the basic jist of it (now with depth!)::

Character: [Ganondorf]

Difficulty rating: 55 :: 45, in Kirby's favor

Overview:
The Great King of Evil, Ganondorf, has returned from Melee! With an updated look, a decloned moveset, and more power than one man should be trusted with (even by godesses), the Dark Lord is ready to put the smackdown on those who contest him. In his arsenal are many moves of varying speed, all with tons of range and power. Ganondorf also possesses some of the most technical prowess in the cast, and when combined with disjointed hitboxes on many of his moves, Ganon generally plays a good defensive game, and aggresive playstyles are viable as well. Baiting-and-Punishing is his speciality. Confront with caution...

Pros+Cons-:

• Amazing level of power
• Many of his moves have decent range and priority
• Quick Tilts and Jab, an amazing Dash Attack, as well as a few aerials
• He is a heavyweight character - Difficult to KO
• He has one of the strongest spikes in the game
• Flame Choke and Techchasing
• Certain Advanced Techniques allow for better mobility
• Aerial Flame Choke Kamikaze = Coolest way to die

• 
  Large target, easy to hit and combo
  [*]Many moves are laggy, and are easily punished
  [*]Slow running speed and aerial mobility
  [*]Pretty poor recovery
  [*]Approaches are somewhat limited
  [*]Major weakness to projectiles (even crappy ones)

Watch out for:
Flame Choke - Counts as a Grab, so it can't be shielded. Allows for tech-chasing and even has four follow-up moves (not including itself, which is called ChainChoking): Jab, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, and Dash Attack. Sadly, Kirby can be hit with all four, as long as the attacks are buffered properly.

Dash Attack - Another one of Ganon's good moves. The Instant Dash Attack is a force to be reckoned with; fast and powerful, able to kill Kirby easily around 100%. An excellent Flame Choke follow-through, granted it gets buffered correctly. Kirby is actually small enough that if he DIs properly during the Meteor frames of the Choke, the Dash Attack won't make contact; however, there are still many follow-up options for Ganon, and Kirby doesn't like any of them. On a lighter note: surprisingly, Kirby can clank this attack with his U-Tilt!

F-Tilt - This move is fast and powerful, and can outprioritize Kirby's B-Air when correctly spaced. Oddly enough, Ganon's spot-dodge has IASA frames, and a slide that comes with it. Combined with the speed, power, and priority of the F-Tilt, this makes for a dangerous combination. F-Tilt is also another good Flame Choke follow-up.

D-Tilt - It is Ganon's farthest-reaching ground attack (execpt for U-Tilt, but that's hardly used at all). It's quick compared to his other moves (10 frames), has decent priority, it can poke under shields, provide a follow-up to Flame Choke, and just proves itself to be a reliable attack altogether. The IASA frames on this move don't help with that matter, either.

U-Smash - Ganon's fastest Smash, and one of his better edgeguarding moves, thanks to the disjointed hitbox. It's similar to Snake's U-Tilt, minus the broken-ness. This move has a sweetspot that has an insane amount of knockback. Ganon's U-Smash also has IASA frames.

U-Air - Ganon's fastest and easily best aerial move, this is his main weapon when he is below Kirby. Not only is it strong, but it has semi-spike frames near the end of the move, often referred to as "Tipman Spike". Ganon's Uair is also good for covering retreats, and even outprioritizes some of Kirby's aerial attacks. This is an excellent edge-guarding attack as well, and can also "combo" into (as long as it's buffered correctly) a Reversed D-Tilt.

D-Air "Stomp" - This is one of the strongest Meteors in the game, and can actually combo into itself or a U-Smash. This attack can also beat out Kirby's U-Air. The Stomp is key to "Thunderstorming", an excellent spacing technique.

How to win:
Use speed to your advantage - Capitalize on Kirby's quick tilts, aerials, and his quick evasion tactics.

Abuse Ganon's weight and size - Grab combos work well at low percents, or any string of quick moves will put Ganon on edge.

Get Ganon in the air - Ganon does not like to get juggled or Fence-of- Pained. Ganon's overall air game is horrid, and should be capitalized on.

Throw in a Final Cutter or two - This will keep Ganon on his toes, since he doesn't really like projectiles (even crappy ones).

Spit or Swallow?:
Spitting Ganon out seems to be the best way to go. His Warlock Punch is a horrible move, and he can hit you right after you Swallow him anyway. Kirby does NOT like to get hit by Ganondorf.

What NOT to do:
Get overly cocky - Rushing into battle thinking "lol ganonz r gun looz 2 kirbeh" is going to get you Grabbed, B-Throwed, F-Smashed offstage, and Stomped into the abyss.

Sandbag the match - Don't you DARE underestimate Ganondorf; he specializes in waiting for you to screw up, and then hitting you hard. REAL hard.

Get Choked - Chainchoking was recently discovered, and Ganon loves it. Ganon also has FOUR follow-up options.

Spam Final Cutter - Even if Ganon doesn't like projectiles, he'll just powershield through Kirby's, and proceed to ****.

Stages (in order of priority):
Rainbow Cruise - It happens to be one of Ganon's worst stages anyway, and Kirby generally likes stages that move and transform.

Port Town Aero Drive - Backup counterpick, in case the Ganon player bans Rainbow Cruise. Be sure not to get spiked into the road.

Frigate Orpheon - Ganon's poor recovery combined with a transforming stage (that's even missing a ledge in one transformation) makes for good counterpicking for Kirby.

Pirate Ship - One of Kirby's worst stages, despite it being a "transforming stage". Ganon spikes lightweights through the water, and he can survive the many hazards that trouble the stage. In fact, scratch it right off the bat.

Norfair - This is also a great Ganon stage. The multiple ledges help with Ganon's sub-par recovery, and he does quite well once he has control of the middle platform at the bottom. He's tall enough to hit characters from underneath, and he hits them hard.

NOTE: If you want an interesting match, go to Brinstar; both characters do very well there. Good neutral stage.

Synopsis:
Like most large and heavy characters, Ganondorf gets juggled by Kirby rather effectively. Kirby will be able to rack up a good bit of damage, but will often have trouble going for an outright kill. He will have to rely on gimps and aerial pressure for KO's most of the time.

Ganon is one of the better Bait-and-Punish characters, probably second to Marth, so be cautious while approaching. He also has his Thunderstorm technique and retreating U-Airs to put some space between himself and Kirby. Chainchoking is always a threat, as well all four of the follow-up attacks, since they can kill Kirby when he's in the 100-150% range.

Just play smart, and the victory can indeed be yours.


Major contributors: IC3R, hyperstation (a.k.a. DAD), dabuz, fromundaman, Asdioh

Summary complete and finalized.


-IC3R, Official Star Warrior

 

[CO18]

Doesn't matter, Online or Offline kosk would **** you just saying. He just got 2nd at last tourney he went to, basically considered best ganon.
Just in general most people haven't played good ganons/alot of characters so their matchup charts become based off theory and hear-say but when it comes down to it, its much different than it appears.
However, I know kosk and know how good he is so Ive also come to realize ganon is a much better character then people give him credit for and can be troublesome.
Im not saying ganon has adv or anything, just I knew you were all wrong thinking kirby ***** ganon.
Ganons side b tech chasing/ to dtilt does rack up alot of dmg on kirby and his up air can compete with/beat with kirby's aerials.
Not to mention he has like 6 kill moves that will kill kirby at like 80 or lower.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

^balls much?

yea

@From: Yea i read it...did you?

 

[SaltyKracka]

^balls much?

yea

@From: Yea i read it...did you?

^brain much?

No.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Man i swear you are the most ignorant poster ever

im the trolliest

but you are just ignorant, you are so blind by you "ego" that you just post whatever even tho it makes no since. Starting with all the dumb stuff you say about kirbys matchups because this isn't the first time you came in here. It started with Ike IIRC

 

[Divilenta]

Just for the record...those of you who think that Lv 9 CPUs against each other is a good thing, you're dead wrong. The CPUs are often gross misrepresentations of their human counterparts. Oh, and Ganon is one of the worst of them. If the tier list was based off of Lv 9 CPUs, C. Falcon would be Mid tier at least.

Oh, and I know I'd get ***** by any Ganon or Kirby in this discussion, so that was just my 2 cents.

 

[momochuu]

Y'know. I think we should move past this character and pretend the Ganon boards don't exist. This is getting pretty annoying.

 

[IC3R]

Anyway, straying away again.....

Are there any comments on the Match-up "table" I did? I play Ganon as a tertiary character, so I have a little bit of experience and knowledge of tactics...Not only that, but I read through tons of discussions and moveset analyses, especially Ganondorf's. Kirby doesn't have many special things going for him like Ganon.

And try to minimize the flames and trolling, guys. Kirby is not amused...


(-_-);

 

[SaltyKracka]

Man i swear you are the most ignorant poster ever

im the trolliest

but you are just ignorant, you are so blind by you "ego" that you just post whatever even tho it makes no since. Starting with all the dumb stuff you say about kirbys matchups because this isn't the first time you came in here. It started with Ike IIRC

I'm the most ignorant? That's a laugh. For one thing, your grammar and spelling are atrocious. For another, you haven't contributed to this discussion at all. I was here for Ike, and I'm here for Ganondorf, and I'm trying to help you guys understand the matchup. Unfortunately, there are "people" such as you here. Now I'm going to go on posting with the people who are actually doing something worthwhile. You can go sit over in the corner and fap to your ego alone.

IC3R, that's a wonderful summary of Ganondorf, as far as the basics go. There's one thing you should probably change, though. Instead of watching out for Ganondorf's jab, the thing that a Kirby should most definitely watch out for his Dash Attack, especially the instant version. It's one of Ganon's best vertically killing moves, and can be used out of Choke for a guaranteed kill at about 100% or so.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I'm the most ignorant? That's a laugh. For one thing, your grammar and spelling are atrocious. For another, you haven't contributed to this discussion at all. I was here for Ike, and I'm here for Ganondorf, and I'm trying to help you guys understand the matchup. Unfortunately, there are "people" such as you here. Now I'm going to go on posting with the people who are actually doing something worthwhile. You can go sit over in the corner and fap to your ego alone.

1st of all this is the interwebz not english class.

You want my input also

ok


Kirbys grabs work well on ganon. Especially his grab combos

Ganon is easy to gimp...Especially with kirby. WoP and Dair

Ganon is slow

Kirby can duck under most his attacks.

Now what does ganon have on kirby?

murderchoke >_>

and that does not even work all the time so i wouldn't call it reliable.

 

[IC3R]

IC3R, that's a wonderful summary of Ganondorf, as the basics go. There's one thing you should probably change, though. Instead of watching out for Ganondorf's jab, the thing that a Kirby should most definitely watch out for his Dash Attack, especially the instant version. It's one of Ganon's best vertically killing moves, and can be used out of Choke for a guaranteed kill at about 100% or so.

Bah, how'd I forget the Instant Dash Attack >_<

I'll add it now...

Dash Attack - Another one of Ganon's good moves. The Instant Dash Attack is a force to be reckoned with; fast and powerful, able to kill Kirby easily around 100%. An excellent Flame Choke follow-through, granted it gets buffered correctly.

SaltyKracka, do you think that the Buffered Dash Cancel is worth mentioning?

 

[cba]

Kosk would destroy most kirbies.

On a side note Snakeee beat chudat in like 100 million money matches or something.

When Chudat also came down to florida, he lost a money match to our best Zero suit (Nick Riddle) who is obviously not as skilled as chudat.
Snakeee also said Zero suit DEFINITLEY wins this matchup but hes not exactly sure the amount right now.
Even chillin plans on using Zero suit specifically for kirby because hes been having more success vs chudat with zss then with snake.

Thank you.
______

 

[Divilenta]

Oh, and I say drop the discussion, and put the matchup as 50:50. Why? Because since nobody has ever played a decent Ganondorf or vice versa, it's considered an even matchup. OR you could say N/A.

 

[SheerMadness]

Kirby beats Ganondorf. Who cares if Koskinator beat someone online.

65-35 Kirby

 

[TP]

For Ganon, the Buffered Dash Cancel is not really worth mentioning. Only a couple Ganons actually use it. I'm not saying it is bad, but it isn't something you are likely to encounter or need to prepare for.

Divilenta, you are wrong. Sorry. Matchup threads are inherently biased and imperfect, but they can still give a pretty good indication of how things should go.

One last thing for Ganon: Do not underestimate the Utilt. I generally land about 1 per set because NOBODY realizes how good it is. It isn't good, but it isn't horrible. Seriously, every Brawl player should spend 3 minutes using the Utilt and bask in its awesome range and lack of endlag and edgeguarding capabilities. Go try it.

 

[Asdioh]

Has pretty poor recovery - Again, there are ATs that fix this problem
Exponentially increasing landing lag - Landing Lag increases with falling distance

Those are the only things I don't understand in there.

Other than that, great post, IC3R.

Suspect is best left ignored.

Doesn't matter, Online or Offline kosk would **** you just saying. He just got 2nd at last tourney he went to, basically considered best ganon.

I got 3rd last tourney I went to, losing only to AlphaZealot and Quivo (though I sent Quivo to loser's bracket in winner's semis)

That doesn't prove anything at all, I'm just proud that I placed high for once :D


And can any Ganondorf explain that... what's it called... "reverse pivot grab" or something, that supposedly increases Ganondorf's standing grab range? It sounds kinda impractical, but I was told there's an entire thread dedicated to it in the Ganon boards and I didn't see it when I looked, maybe it had a different name...

 

[SaltyKracka]

Kirby beats Ganondorf. Who cares if Koskinator beat someone online.

65-35 Kirby

I can't tell if you're joking or just really THAT stupid. Ah, the difficulties of tone on forums.

 

[Divilenta]

Divilenta, you are wrong. Sorry. Matchup threads are inherently biased and imperfect, but they can still give a pretty good indication of how things should go.

One last thing for Ganon: Do not underestimate the Utilt. I generally land about 1 per set because NOBODY realizes how good it is. It isn't good, but it isn't horrible. Seriously, every Brawl player should spend 3 minutes using the Utilt and bask in its awesome range and lack of endlag and edgeguarding capabilities. Go try it.

Okay then. I wasn't planning on staying in the discussion long anyway.

And, yes, I'm trying to use it more. :D

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Im best left ignored yet im one of the better kirby's posting here....wow. Also knowing i have played Texas' best ganon.

Ok everyone ignore what i said about the matchup and listen to people less experienced than me...who have been playing the game much longer.

 

[IC3R]

For Ganon, the Buffered Dash Cancel is not really worth mentioning. Only a couple Ganons actually use it. I'm not saying it is bad, but it isn't something you are likely to encounter or need to prepare for.

One last thing for Ganon: Do not underestimate the Utilt. I generally land about 1 per set because NOBODY realizes how good it is. It isn't good, but it isn't horrible. Seriously, every Brawl player should spend 3 minutes using the Utilt and bask in its awesome range and lack of endlag and edgeguarding capabilities. Go try it.

Actually, U-Tilt makes for an interesting edgeguarding move. You get sucked up and KOed at like 40%!

 

[DLA]

Those are the only things I don't understand in there.

Other than that, great post, IC3R.

Suspect is best left ignored.

I got 3rd last tourney I went to, losing only to AlphaZealot and Quivo (though I sent Quivo to loser's bracket in winner's semis)

That doesn't prove anything at all, I'm just proud that I placed high for once :D


And can any Ganondorf explain that... what's it called... "reverse pivot grab" or something, that supposedly increases Ganondorf's standing grab range? It sounds kinda impractical, but I was told there's an entire thread dedicated to it in the Ganon boards and I didn't see it when I looked, maybe it had a different name...

The reverse pivot grab is performed by dashing away from the opponent and grabbing in the opponent's direction as fast as you can. If done correctly, Ganon will just spin and do a reverse grab that has HUGE range, instead of the laggy dash grab. The reverse pivot grab is a bit slower than the regular grab but has a range rivaling DDD's or DK's.

The problem is, it's difficult to do this tech without dashing backwards a bit instead of just spinning around and grabbing. So what happens is that you dash away from your opponent a bit and end up having the same grab range that you'd usually have, due to the fact that you just moved away from the opponent.

If you can do it correctly, it will really improve your grab game. But I wouldn't call it a necessary technique to having a good Ganon.

 

[SheerMadness]

I can't tell if you're joking or just really THAT stupid. Ah, the difficulties of tone on forums.

LOL OCT 2008 guy calling me stupid.

 

[Asdioh]

I can't tell if you're joking or just really THAT stupid. Ah, the difficulties of tone on forums.

He's skilled, but definitely opinionated.

Sheer, to be honest, you didn't add anything of use. You just said 65-35 in an arrogant kind of way...

Im best left ignored yet im one of the better kirby's posting here....wow. Also knowing i have played Texas' best ganon.

Ok everyone ignore what i said about the matchup and listen to people less experienced than me...who have been playing the game much longer.

Didn't you say something about you being a troll in a previous post? XD


It's just that a lot of the people here (regardless of character) fail at arguing in a non-flammatory way, and they add nothing useful to the discussions besides something along the line of "lol this move ownz you so you can't do anything"






*sleeps*

 

[IC3R]

Asidoh, the Recovery AT I was talking about is the Double-Reversed Aerial Warlock Punch, or DRAWP for short. Sliq has a video on its applications: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6SFekF7q4g

Sometimes it's referred to as Murder Fist Recovery, but I like my acronym more

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

yea i troll but i put my input when needed just like i did when he asked me to..

I have a feeling ill be seeing ganon board again soon, idk if the diddy board did ganon yet >_>

 

[SheerMadness]

Sheer, to be honest, you didn't add anything of use. You just said 65-35 in an arrogant kind of way...

Matchup threads are made for people to express their opinions on the matchup.

I didn't say anything arrogant and I'm not the one calling other people's opinions stupid like a lot of brawl noobs on here do. I simply stated my opinion on the matchup.

Theres way too many people on smashboards who can't keep themselves from bashing an opinion they disagree with. They're in the wrong not me.

Kirby is simply a much better all around character than Ganondorf.

 

[choice_brawler]

Asidoh, the Recovery AT I was talking about is the Double-Reversed Aerial Warlock Punch, or DRAWP for short. Sliq has a video on its applications: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6SFekF7q4g

Sometimes it's referred to as Murder Fist Recovery, but I like my acronym more

Do most ganons make use of the murder fist recovery? I've heard my CF friends say the same about CF's falcon pawnch, but i never see them recover that way...and if so do they normally DI so that the punch is executed off stage or on the stage? The afterlag looks punishable but not if you do as sliq did the time where the punch was just about the edge.

EDIT: i asked them why they never use it, they say no point, CF doesnt get gimped. So should expect ganons to be doing so i guess.

Also: what happened to ZSS? xD

 

[IC3R]

Do most ganons make use of the murder fist recovery?

One would think so, as Ganon has poor horizontal mobility on his own.

Also: what happened to ZSS? xD

We've prety much decided it to be 60 :: 40 in Zamus' favor


EDIT:: I can actually write out the summary for Zamus as well, if MK26 doesn't do it. It seems my one for Ganon is rather popular I'll have to alter the format though...

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

With the reverse pivot grab ganons grab range beats out kirbys. Me and fromundaman did this matchup like 20 times tonight (and will do PLENTY more tomorrow) and i was able to beat out Sh b-air with f-tilt (correctly spaced) also poke with an un-punishable d-tilt (also correctly spaced) U-air beat out anything when i was under him.
I however got ***** by WoP, and u-tilt does clank with dash attack. And he really cant crouch under attacks. The only thing crouch would ever help is to avoid a wiz kick.

 

[IC3R]

Okay, I've updated my Summary post. Here is a direct link to it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6506629&postcount=1245

 

[A1lion835]

Um... about the drawp.

Let's say I fsmash you, angling it down so you go flying horizontally and a little down.

What now?

Even awesomerific DI couldn't get you into the top corner.

I'm not trying to be all "ganon is for scrubz lol". I'm just wondering.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Um... about the drawp.

Let's say I fsmash you, angling it down so you go flying horizontally and a little down.

What now?

Even awesomerific DI couldn't get you into the top corner.

I'm not trying to be all "ganon is for scrubz lol". I'm just wondering.

We don't really use it anyways. It's funny and all, but not very practical.

 

[cba]

the ganon boards make such a great argument. they are pretty solid too.

 

[:034:]

Okay, I have a table-ish thing set up.

How's this for a Kirby vs. Ganon Summary?

I hope I didn't miss anything. If I did, feel free to say so, and make any necessary corrections. It took me a few hours and a lot of thread searching to complete this, so bear with me.

-IC3R

Norfair is one of Ganondorf's best stages, so it'd be unwise to counterpick it against him (no matter how good Kirby is on there).

And yeah, the Warlock Punch recovery trick isn't really that practical. Actually, I've never used it in battle before...

 

[@HomE]

Not to beat a dead horse.... but the Warlock Punch recovery was discovered SOOOO long ago, Its flashy but not practical in a match. i dont think it aids recovery much (if at all) and if you dont do it perfectly.... you die.

long story short, it has nothing to do with Ganon's already very complex metagame...

 

[Dabuz]

ok, something else to keep in mind is that ganon had double dair to upsmash combo at low percents for easy 60% on kirby, so thats somethign else to watch out for,

and a1lion, most ganons expect fsmash at decent percents and will space you so good luck getting in that fsmash, sure, if you hit ganon is good at gone at decent percents but trust me, thats hard to do,

im actually gonna change my mind to 55-45 on this matchup, because when i played zeonstar it was ridiculously close but i see how good ganons can do in this matchup, mainly because ganons has great OOS options and a gquick jab makes getting grabs on ganon when they get used to it hard to do


(and yesh, this is not green text for once, happy...)[COLOR]