The New Match-up Chart

[Olikus]

large advantage
advantage
small advantage
even

seriously

hard time seing anyone disagree with this.

 

[Neon!]

It would be nice if this chart had 7 increments instead of 5, this game is more complex than that and deserves a more accurate rating system. Also, I dont see how link beats DK, yes link wins slightly on hyrule but on dreamland/Kongo he gets destroyed.

I was also wondering if there was an agreed upon "worst" matchup in the game, I was thinking samus vs fox or pika but I'm not sure.

 

[t3h Icy]

....

So umm, this thread is a gajillion years old. There's even a newer one, lol.

But if you guys want to, I don't mind making a fresh thread to do match-up chart stuff again, since most people are awful at these things lol. But if the consensus is to do that, I'd rather make sure we know how we want to do it (stages vs general, increment amounts, etc).

Also, Luigi is terrible vs Kirby.

 

[asianaussie]

link is even with dk on that chart, he blows up dk on hyrule but loses on DL

worst in the game is up for debate, i think fox vs samus on hyrule is pretty terrible, fox vs link as well...maybe link dittos, nobody wins in link dittos

 

[ballin4life]

It would be nice if this chart had 7 increments instead of 5, this game is more complex than that and deserves a more accurate rating system. Also, I dont see how link beats DK, yes link wins slightly on hyrule but on dreamland/Kongo he gets destroyed.

I was also wondering if there was an agreed upon "worst" matchup in the game, I was thinking samus vs fox or pika but I'm not sure.

I thought it was agreed that pika vs samus is not that bad

 

[The Star King]

You thought wrong.

 

[ballin4life]

apparently

 

[Yobolight]

apparently

Go to Apex 2013. I am in love with your technical skill.

Get someone to film and please play with Ness if you beat your opponent handily in the first game, like Firo and Boom did.

 

[WOTG]

Couple additions from me using the (< << <<< method)

Fox > Falcon
DK > Luigi
Link >> Luigi
Ness > Luigi

and umm cant think of anymore right now if i had any

oh yeah, Yoshi vs Fox is probably the most even match up, literally.

 

[Yobolight]

Couple additions from me using the (< << <<< method)

Fox > Falcon
DK > Luigi
Link >> Luigi
Ness > Luigi

and umm cant think of anymore right now if i had any

oh yeah, Yoshi vs Fox is probably the most even match up, literally.

I feel like DK = Luigi.

 

[mikeduncan23]

I feel like DK = Luigi.

I feel like DK=Luigi as well.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why did go so far down in the tier list to the position he's at now?

 

[asianaussie]

because everyone who contributed to the list ****ing hates ness

 

[Battlecow]

Why did go so far down in the tier list to the position he's at now?

ness was only ever considered a good character in that random silly gamefaqs list that no one should ever have looked at ever.

 

[WOTG]

Luigi is good at punishing and edgeguarding DK, but that's about it. Luigi's issue in this match-up is getting passed DK's range and defense. The only issue DK has is edgeguarding Luigi, which is no where as bad as edgeguarding Mario.
It's not a bad match-up for Luigi, but DK has an advantage.

The worst match-up in the game is Samus/Falcon.

 

[ballin4life]

Why did go so far down in the tier list to the position he's at now?

because everyone who contributed to the list ****ing hates ness

quoted for truth

but also (from the Smash Index sticky):

Q: Why is Ness so low on the tier list?

A: Ness dropped because his DJC isn't broken due to bad aerial hitboxes, his approach is piddly due to the same reason, he has mediocre grab range and the attacks with passable hitboxes are the ones that don't see much use for one reason or another. Overshadowing all of this is the worst aspect: his recovery, which is absurdly predictable, slow and edgeguardable to a fault by anyone half-decent.

 

[The Star King]

I feel like DK = Luigi.

I feel like DK=Luigi as well.

No .

 

[WOTG]

Anyone willing to challenge? Am I right? Or are people too lazy to have smash discussions anymore?

And it seems like me and Star King agree on everything.

 

[Izuhu]

Luigi will prevail one day ;-;

 

[The Star King]

And it seems like me and Star King agree on everything.

Nope I also disagree with Falcon Samus being the worst match-up, gg

But anyone who agrees that Luigi vs Puff is not that bad is free to join THE CLUB

 

[mikeduncan23]

Luigi is good at punishing and edgeguarding DK, but that's about it. Luigi's issue in this match-up is getting passed DK's range and defense. The only issue DK has is edgeguarding Luigi, which is no where as bad as edgeguarding Mario.
It's not a bad match-up for Luigi, but DK has an advantage.

The worst match-up in the game is Samus/Falcon.

Thank you for a more than one word detailed explanation. It does seem now thinking about it that Luigi would have a difficult time approaching DK due to his range.

 

[The Star King]

**** you my "no" was hella informative

 

[WOTG]

Nope I also disagree with Falcon Samus being the worst match-up, gg

But anyone who agrees that Luigi vs Puff is not that bad is free to join THE CLUB

What do you think is the worst match-up then? Besides that one it's gotta be Ness/Kirby. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest Fox/Samus is any where near the worse. And it seems like Falcon actually combos/punishes Samus better than Fox does.

 

[Frogles]

falcon punishes like every char better than fox does. fox can just shut her out with lasers. i don't think the matchup would be horrible without lasers.

 

[ballin4life]

What do you think is the worst match-up then? Besides that one it's gotta be Ness/Kirby. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest Fox/Samus is any where near the worse. And it seems like Falcon actually combos/punishes Samus better than Fox does.

i feel like samus is the one character that Fox punishes better than Falcon. Falcon's fthrow and usmash don't really combo too well due to extreme floatiness.

 

[Battlecow]

No experience with fox-samus but I think pika-samus is worse than falcon-samus. Samus can at least edgeguard falcon, and falcon's combos on her aren't devastating or anything. Pika's bread and butter game--hit them with disjointed stuff, toss them off, hit them and then recover from anywhere--seems to lend itself more to fighting samus than falcon's dashdance->grab/usmash->combo. Falcon sort of has to bair a lot in that MU and that's not really what he wants to be doing.

Pika's really good against samus

KEFIT would probably disagree though

Spoiler

/makingfunofkefitwhenItotallystilllosetokabal

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

yoshi = fox? ok wat

 

[Yobolight]

Luigi is good at punishing and edgeguarding DK, but that's about it. Luigi's issue in this match-up is getting passed DK's range and defense. The only issue DK has is edgeguarding Luigi, which is no where as bad as edgeguarding Mario.
It's not a bad match-up for Luigi, but DK has an advantage.

The worst match-up in the game is Samus/Falcon.

If the Luigi plays a radically reactive game, I think the advantages that you grant him are enough to beat DK.

Luigi really punishes edgeguards DK really hard and as you said DK isn't stallar at edgeguarding Luigi.

Hyrule might be a better map for Luigi as long as the Luigi player is cognizant of DK's prowess in the **** tent, but Luigi is actually one of the better characters for in fact getting out of those due to his floatiness and quick up B.

Luigi in the **** tent also is like throw -> up smash -> few uairs -> UpB. DK Dead.

What do you think is the worst match-up then? Besides that one it's gotta be Ness/Kirby.

I got to agree I play this match up a lot as Ness and it is sooooooo hard. A lot of the time I feel like I can't do anything at all and I usually end up circle camping or jumping around on the platforms on Hyrule till the kirby lets me get a sneak attack. Kirby's unlimited jumps and weight really neuter any chance of Ness getting any really substantial combos in.

yoshi = fox? ok wat

Did anyone actually suggest that I can't find it anywhere.

 

[Battlecow]

that's a novel weegee tent combo

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

Samus vs Fox is really really good for Fox

At least for my Fox it is

 

[Yobolight]

that's a novel weegee tent combo

I sense the sarcasm and I know it is basic, but the point of mentioning it is to preempt the the "DK in the **** tent will just throw a lot -> Uair -> Usmash!!!" I just mention the point to express that I think they are pretty even down there.

 

[Battlecow]

No, it seriously is novel. I don't really see weegees go for usmash->uairs->upB in the tent. I wasn't being sarcastic so much as skeptical because I don't think that's at all the most effective way for weegee to go about tent-comboing.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why is worst then ?

 

[asianaussie]

because everyone who contributed to the list ****ing hates luigi except A$ and star king

 

[Seagull Joe]

I've been playing a lot of 64 recently and I co-main /. I also like to davel in . I been watching a lot of Isai/Superboom matches.

I didn't realize rose on the tier list since I last saw it. No surprise with .

Just read about shine canceling and I'll try it out. My brother uses / who I've been playing since 1999 loool. He's another smasher except he quit awhile ago. We're both average/bad lol.

I entered Apex 2012 64 and beat one guy. I didn't enter this year because I'm aiming to take top 17 in Brawl this year (Made it to bracket in 2012, but was so tired and lost to Mr.R and DeLux in bracket so I got 33rd), but I'd like to practice again.

 

[Yobolight]

No, it seriously is novel. I don't really see weegees go for usmash->uairs->upB in the tent. I wasn't being sarcastic so much as skeptical because I don't think that's at all the most effective way for weegee to go about tent-comboing.

That has to be the most basic tent combo for Luigi throw off wall at low damage upsmash to get opponent in the air, proceed to uair until the time is right then upB. Maybe that is just what happens in my circle of play, but I promise your it is legit.

 

[asianaussie]

...why not just throw > rethrow x3/4 > u-air > up-b

far easier and not as percentage dependent as u-smash

 

[WOTG]

Just woke up to see all the commotion, where do I begin....

falcon punishes like every char better than fox does. fox can just shut her out with lasers. i don't think the matchup would be horrible without lasers.

Lasers itself give Fox an advantage over Samus, but it is very possible for Samus to get through them. I've experienced and witnessed enough to figure this MU is really not as bad as most people make it out to be. Reminds me when people acted like Link had no chance against a good Fox, but then you still see people like ISAI beating up good Fox players for the most part. (Not only just using Isai as the source)

i feel like samus is the one character that Fox punishes better than Falcon. Falcon's fthrow and usmash don't really combo too well due to extreme floatiness.

You'd naturally think Fox punishes Samus better than Falcon, because Falcon doesn't combo too well against floaties, but I think Isai's new way of punishing floaties with Falcon has changed the game on that. Falcon usually does finish his punishes on Samus, while Fox typically can't.

yoshi = fox? ok wat

Shocking? I'm assuming you think Fox > Yoshi? The reason I have it even is because Fox has lasers and may have the approach advantage, but against a good Yoshi, parries can disrupt Fox's combos A LOT (Something I noticed when playing parry kings like Sheer, which seems to happen most when I used Fox). Fox usually has to accumulate multiple hits, while for Yoshi all it takes is one hit most the time.

If the Luigi plays a radically reactive game, I think the advantages that you grant him are enough to beat DK.

I'm not completely sure what you mean here by radically reactive. Sounds like just getting the better of the match to get the win. I don't think DK has a total advantage, but definitely the small advantage.

Luigi really punishes edgeguards DK really hard and as you said DK isn't stallar at edgeguarding Luigi.

Luigi is GOOD at edgeguarding DK, but it's not like an OP edgeguard like Kirby/Pika or somethin. DK can typically make it back a lot of the time, like vice versa.

Hyrule might be a better map for Luigi as long as the Luigi player is cognizant of DK's prowess in the **** tent, but Luigi is actually one of the better characters for in fact getting out of those due to his floatiness and quick up B.

I'm actually not really sure about Hyrule, haven't played or witnessed the MU on the stage in recent months/years.

Luigi in the **** tent also is like throw -> up smash -> few uairs -> UpB. DK Dead.

wut that combo doesnt even make sense

 

[TJ.]

That has to be the most basic tent combo for Luigi throw off wall at low damage upsmash to get opponent in the air, proceed to uair until the time is right then upB. Maybe that is just what happens in my circle of play, but I promise your it is legit.

I do something similar with mario when I don't feel like throwing people into walls, but a throw combo is more reliable.

 

[RickySSB]

Samus can handle Fox lasers.