The New Match-up Chart

[Izuhu]

DK's up-b can counter DJC when he's is under pressure.
DK got that gay grab. Not mention Cargo stalling for days.

 

[The Star King]

Yoshi > DK

 

[Yobolight]

This should be the chart IMHO.

Rat = Kirby
Rat > Fox
Rat > Doug
Rat > Mario
Rat > Yoshi
Rat > DK
Rat > Jiggly
Rat >> Ness
Rat >> Link
Rat >> Luigi
Rat >> Samus

Kirby > Fox
Kirby > Mario
Kirby > Doug
Kirby > Yoshi
Kirby >> DK
Kirby > Jiggly
Kirby >> Ness
Kirby >> Link
Kirby > Luigi
Kirby >> Samus

Fox = Doug
Fox > Mario
Fox > Yoshi
Fox > DK
Fox >> Jiggly
Fox > Ness
Fox >> Link
Fox >> Luigi
Fox >> Samus

Doug = Mario
Doug > Yoshi
Doug >> DK
Doug = Jiggly
Doug = Ness
Doug >> Link
Doug > Luigi
Doug > Samus

Mario = Yoshi
Mario > DK
Mario >> Jiggly
Mario >/>> Ness
Mario > Link
Mario > Luigi
Mario >> Samus

Yoshi > DK
Yoshi = Jiggly
Yoshi < Ness
Yoshi > Link
Yoshi > Luigi
Yoshi > Samus

DK > Jiggly
DK = Ness
DK >> Link
DK = Luigi
DK > Samus

Jiggly > Ness
Jiggly > Link
Jiggly << Luigi
Jiggly < Samus

Ness > Link
Ness > Luigi
Ness > Samus

Link > Luigi
Link > Samus

Luigi = Samus

 

[WOTG]

This should be the chart IMHO.

Rat = Kirby
Rat > Fox
Rat > Doug
Rat > Mario
Rat > Yoshi
Rat > DK
Rat > Jiggly
Rat >> Ness
Rat >> Link
Rat >> Luigi
Rat >> Samus

Kirby > Fox
Kirby > Mario
Kirby > Doug
Kirby > Yoshi
Kirby >> DK
Kirby > Jiggly
Kirby >> Ness
Kirby >> Link
Kirby > Luigi
Kirby >> Samus

Fox = Doug
Fox > Mario
Fox > Yoshi
Fox > DK
Fox >> Jiggly
Fox > Ness
Fox >> Link
Fox >> Luigi
Fox >> Samus

Doug = Mario
Doug > Yoshi
Doug << DK
Doug = Jiggly
Doug = Ness
Doug >> Link
Doug > Luigi
Doug > Samus

Mario = Yoshi
Mario > DK
Mario >> Jiggly
Mario >/>> Ness
Mario > Link
Mario > Luigi
Mario >> Samus

Yoshi > DK
Yoshi = Jiggly
Yoshi < Ness
Yoshi > Link
Yoshi > Luigi
Yoshi > Samus

DK > Jiggly
DK = Ness
DK >> Link
DK = Luigi
DK > Samus

Jiggly > Ness
Jiggly > Link
Jiggly << Luigi
Jiggly < Samus

Ness > Link
Ness > Luigi
Ness > Samus

Link > Luigi
Link > Samus

Luigi = Samus

Stopped reading after I saw this

Guess I can add more explanation on why I think Yoshi > DK
Only counter DK has against Yoshi is his Up B, but a good Yoshi can get passed this, and severely punish DK. The punish game is like the Link-Falcon MU. Link has to accumulate multiple hits, while for Falcon all it takes is one hit. For Yoshi all it takes is one hit, while DK has to accumulate multiple hits most the time. Yoshi also has the approach advantage; his djc allows him to cover range beyond DK's approach, and if timed right can get through DK's defense, including Up B. A good Yoshi's defense can completely counter DK's approach with a simple parry > punish... Did I also mention that it's easy for Yoshi to shieldbreak?

 

[Yobolight]

Stopped reading after I saw this

Why?

I think I am going to make a thread proving them all

 

[WOTG]

Anyone with common sense knows Falcon > DK

That's an obvious one like Luigi > Jiggs

Oh and sure man, go ahead.

 

[kys]

Get online please.

 

[Yobolight]

Anyone with common sense knows Falcon > DK

That's an obvious one like Luigi > Jiggs

Oh and sure man, go ahead.

Sorry that was an error

Edit: Fixed it

 

[prisonchild]

pikachu=kirby? kirby is outclassed in pretty much every way in this MU

 

[Yobolight]

pikachu=kirby? kirby is outclassed in pretty much every way in this MU

I knew this one was controversial. It leans Pikachu certainly, but I think Kirby does well here.

 

[Battlecow]

What stage/stage list are you using for that chart?

 

[Yobolight]

What stage/stage list are you using for that chart?

DL, Hyrule, KJ. With strategic Banning assumed (eg. Link doesn't get to play Hyrule).

 

[WOTG]

Guess I can add more explanation on why I think Yoshi > DK
Only counter DK has against Yoshi is his Up B, but a good Yoshi can get passed this, and severely punish DK. The punish game is like the Link-Falcon MU. Link has to accumulate multiple hits, while for Falcon all it takes is one hit. For Yoshi all it takes is one hit, while DK has to accumulate multiple hits most the time. Yoshi also has the approach advantage; his djc allows him to cover range beyond DK's approach, and if timed right can get through DK's defense, including Up B. A good Yoshi's defense can completely counter DK's approach with a simple parry > punish... Did I also mention that it's easy for Yoshi to shieldbreak?

Anyone willing to challenge me on Yoshi > DK? Or am I right?

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

I'd agree that Yoshi probably has an advantage on DL vs DK. You forgot to mention that it's hard for DK to gimp Yoshi

 

[Battlecow]

DK = Yoshi

I can't "prove" it though.

 

[WOTG]

I'd agree that Yoshi probably has an advantage on DL vs DK. You forgot to mention that it's hard for DK to gimp Yoshi

I think it's about the same on both stages. I didn't mention gimping, because it's pretty much hard for every character to gimp Yoshi.

DK = Yoshi

I can't "prove" it though.

I'm right. :D

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

yoshi > dk

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

but one of dk's main strengths is gimping, so take that away and it makes the matchup even worse

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Yoshi is bad vs grab-based characters (lolCF/DK) due to having a bad roll, a bad tech roll, havng somewhat bad OoS options, and having a terrible grab himself

I personally dislike the Yoshi vs. DK matchup (it's actually my least favorite low tier matchup,) I think it's barely in DK's favor though I could potentially see it as being even.

 

[WOTG]

Don't listen to Koro

 

[Izuhu]

Yoshi is bad vs grab-based characters (lolCF/DK) due to having a bad roll, a bad tech roll, havng somewhat bad OoS options, and having a terrible grab himself

I personally dislike the Yoshi vs. DK matchup (it's actually my least favorite low tier matchup,) I think it's barely in DK's favor though I could potentially see it as being even.

Wut?

I can agree with the with him having bad rolling and a terrible grab. But Yoshi's Up-smash OoS is way too good. And he can tech chase DK with DJC mix-ups.

EDIT: I also think a (CF/DK) MU is kinda hard, but I wouldn't say Yoshi is "that" bad in this MU. I mean he's considered bad in this MU compared to other MUs. And I I agree with you, that this matchup is more in DK's favor but only barely. Yoshi can get gimped real easily if you play him wrong, but thats only if you play him wrong. You gotta balance out aggro and defense, because being too aggressive (against good DKs) can get you gimped.

I think its Yoshi ≤ DK

 

[clubbadubba]

But Yoshi's Up-smash OoS is way too good

its just too slow. i guess if falcon usmash's ur shield from behind you, otherwise its just too slow

 

[SheerMadness]

I think Koro thinks about Yoshi match ups in terms of his 2006 Yoshi or something.

Get with the times man it's 2012 lol.

I'm not sure why rolling vs anyone would be a solid strategy? Also DK can't really tech chase Yoshi's tech rolls. He's too slow.

I'm not sure why Yoshi having a bad grab matters in any match up lol? It's not like his grab sets up combos or anything.

Yoshi has some of the best OOS options in the game in upsmash and parry. If you're stuck in shield with Yoshi, let go completely then start tapping z and jumping and there will be a decent change you'll parry whatever they're doing and escape safely.

Lol good ole Koro.

 

[The Star King]

Don't listen to Koro

This.

Yoshi > DK. Yoshi just punishes DK way harder than the other way around. DK can't really combo Yoshi much at all until mid-high percents, and that's only on platforms or **** tent. DK can't edgeguard him well either if he doesn't have a fully charged punch. Meanwhile Yoshi can dair DK's recovery and it usually works - or grab, or djc counter nair (yeah, that works, but I can't find the video where I learned the latter from - I think it was Japanese, with maybe Prince as Yoshi?). DK does have some stuff like the f-throw -> up-b gimp, but if the Yoshi can break out of DK's fthrow fast like a lot of people can then DK can't do anything about it.

Of course it's not all about combos and edeguards (hi ballin ) but DK doesn't strike me as having any particularly strong neutral game stuff to make up for the punishment disparity in this MU. Koro saying Yoshi has a bad shield... not really, and anyways I can't think of situations where this would matter. DK will just be aerialing -> grabbing shields or not punishing them at all - he doesn't really have any shield pressure used at all like a few characters in this game, i.e. Samus. But I guess this is coming from the guy who forgot Yoshi can jump out of shield so I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt.

I haven't played Boomfan's DK in this matchup. I played Isai's though and I did way better than I should have (yeah I know fake smash etc.)

Izuhu you think everyone beats Yoshi? >_>

 

[Izuhu]

Izuhu you think everyone beats Yoshi? >_>

wut?
no, I never said that. Why do you I think I mained Yoshi. He ****ing *****!

¬_¬"

 

[The Star King]

I asked because I thought you said Link beats Yoshi, and now this. But I looked again and you actually just put Link above Yoshi on a tier list. But still. I think you're underrating him in this MU.

 

[asianaussie]

link totally beats yoshi

pivot hookshot gets things done

 

[RickySSB]

link totally beats yoshi

pivot hookshot gets things done

No


Link vs Yoshi isn't good for Link. You haven't played good Yoshis then

 

[prisonchild]

when somebody says something like 'pivot hookshots get things done' i think they are being sarcastic

 

[ballin4life]

This.

Yoshi > DK. Yoshi just punishes DK way harder than the other way around. DK can't really combo Yoshi much at all until mid-high percents, and that's only on platforms or **** tent. DK can't edgeguard him well either if he doesn't have a fully charged punch. Meanwhile Yoshi can dair DK's recovery and it usually works - or grab, or djc counter nair (yeah, that works, but I can't find the video where I learned the latter from - I think it was Japanese, with maybe Prince as Yoshi?). DK does have some stuff like the f-throw -> up-b gimp, but if the Yoshi can break out of DK's fthrow fast like a lot of people can then DK can't do anything about it.

Of course it's not all about combos and edeguards (hi ballin ) but DK doesn't strike me as having any particularly strong neutral game stuff to make up for the punishment disparity in this MU. Koro saying Yoshi has a bad shield... not really, and anyways I can't think of situations where this would matter. DK will just be aerialing -> grabbing shields or not punishing them at all - he doesn't really have any shield pressure used at all like a few characters in this game, i.e. Samus. But I guess this is coming from the guy who forgot Yoshi can jump out of shield so I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt.

I haven't played Boomfan's DK in this matchup. I played Isai's though and I did way better than I should have (yeah I know fake smash etc.)

Izuhu you think everyone beats Yoshi? >_>

thumbs up for linking a video in your argument

 

[WOTG]

I think Yoshi has the advantage on DL but not anything significant. On Hyrule, Link might actually be better.

 

[B Link]

yoshi > link

doesn't matter what stage

 

[Izuhu]

Link has a "very slight" advantage on Hyrule just for the fact that there's more space for him to move around, giving him the opportunity to out space Yoshi with projectiles.

For the Yoshi vs Link MU on DL I'm convinced that its Yoshi > Link

 

[asianaussie]

yoshi +2/+3 link on DL
link +1/+2 yoshi on hyrule

circle camping too stronk

 

[The Star King]

So you think the stage makes a difference of like 4 points?

Yoshi is one of the best characters at dealing projectile camping with pure chase-down, simply because he has top tier mobility. As well as the fact that he can combo Link extremely hard once he lands an aerial, which at least partly makes up for Link chipping away with projectiles (you know, what makes Link not good in the first place despite his top-tier neutral game). But of course Link still has the neutral game advantage. I think it's pretty even on Hyrule, maybe +1 Link.

thumbs up for linking a video in your argument

I was gonna do another one for djc counter nair edgeguard because I'm betting that sounds fishy if you haven't ever seen it (which is likely because I only saw like one guy use it). But like I said I couldn't find the video

 

[asianaussie]

i do indeed think the stage makes a difference of something like 4 points

 

[The Star King]

Well, I don't. Maybe like 2 or 3 points at best.

Against Yoshi, I am of the opinion that Link and Fox gain less of an advantage from Hyrule than they do against most characters (relative to the match-up on Dreamland). That is, they gain less "points". Because Yoshi is good at chasing them down and can death combo them from virtually anywhere on the stage. As opposed to, say, Samus, who suffers on Hyrule because she gets less edgeguard opportunities from random bairs and ****, so she's forced to chip away at Fox/Link because she can't combo. And she sucks at chasing them down. So basically, she struggles to get a first hit and THEN only gets like a 10-20% reward when she finally succeeds.

 

[asianaussie]

i just think yoshi vs link on DL is *** for link...

 

[The Star King]

Maybe. I do pretty good as Link vs Sheer's Yoshi but I do well vs him with like every character I try so yeah, also he hates Link or something?

 

[asianaussie]

i used to do alright with pete's yoshi on DL but that was because i abused the crap out of his DJC patterns and he doesn't parry much

you get one-touched by yoshi just as much as by falcon