The New Match-up Chart

[SheerMadness]

Noob King we've played like 5 games in the past year and a half.

And I don't remember you beating me with Link.

Either way we haven't really played in forever. You can't keep referencing our year and a half old games.

If you wanna see how you really do vs me get on and play. That's what I've done with battle cattle and wotg the past couple weeks. They both had some weird dream that they were really good vs me. But their dream didn't match reality.

 

[The Star King]

Well you never change the way you play so I'm gonna assume my games against you from a year ago are still valid

 

[SheerMadness]

Time to bring back the 10 fox/yoshi challenges.

 

[ballin4life]

Because Yoshi is good at chasing them down and can death combo them from virtually anywhere on the stage.

C'mon now, you're saying this crap too?

 

[The Star King]

It's true >_> I don't say these things lightly like some other people. You know me, everything I say is based off of EXPERIENCE

 

[Yobolight]

It's true >_> I don't say these things lightly like some other people. You know me, everything I say is based off of EXPERIENCE

Same

10sames

 

[The Star King]

lol. We don't know what sort of experince YOU have though.

 

[Frogles]

his matchup chart isn't that bad though. he has to be OK at the very least.

also kirby >> luigi. @_@

 

[WOTG]

Yawn. Sheer, what people like you have to understand is...

Spoiler

I'm the best in the world.

 

[Battlecow]

Noob King we've played like 5 games in the past year and a half.

And I don't remember you beating me with Link.

Either way we haven't really played in forever. You can't keep referencing our year and a half old games.

If you wanna see how you really do vs me get on and play. That's what I've done with battle cattle and wotg the past couple weeks. They both had some weird dream that they were really good vs me. But their dream didn't match reality.

lulz

I love it when you act like I don't take 7 of 8 games from your fox

we should do a 10-anything challenge and see how that goes

his matchup chart isn't that bad though. he has to be OK at the very least.

also kirby >> luigi. @_@

His MU chart is weirdly good

I think it's probably coincidence/reading the actual MU chart and then just changing the things that he feels strongly about.

I doubt very much if he's OK

 

[prisonchild]

his matchup chart isn't that bad though. he has to be OK at the very least.

also kirby >> luigi. @_@

i don't think kirby's advantage is that large to be honest, it's definitely kirby > luigi but not kirby >> luigi. iirc there's like three matchups in the whole chart that are >> and i don't think luigi vs kirby is one of them.

luigi generally does better against lighter characters (relies on low % kills with upb), the main thing holding him back is lack of approach (and lack of speed) but i wouldn't say that kirby's defenses are nearly impassable for luigi.


there are definitely worse matchups for luigi

 

[clubbadubba]

dude, kirby's defenses are the most impassable in the game (disagree with that if you want, but at the very least he is top tier in defense) what are you talking about. Luigi = worst approach, kirby = best defense. If luigi has to approach he is ****ed in this matchup. Fortunately he doesn't have to because he has cool fireballs. I'd agree this is > for kirby, but if we used the >, >>, >>> scale like we should (when is more differential ever a bad thing? Worst case scenario we get it wrong but by less than we would have before) then it would be a >> matchup.

Also, back to the numbers at one point we had the 55/45 thing and I think we took it all the way to 75/25 (or maybe 70/30) by multiples of 5, which was 4 to 5 degrees of difference. I liked that.

 

[prisonchild]

dude, kirby's defenses are the most impassable in the game (disagree with that if you want, but at the very least he is top tier in defense) what are you talking about. Luigi = worst approach, kirby = best defense. If luigi has to approach he is ****ed in this matchup. Fortunately he doesn't have to because he has cool fireballs. I'd agree this is > for kirby, but if we used the >, >>, >>> scale like we should (when is more differential ever a bad thing? Worst case scenario we get it wrong but by less than we would have before) then it would be a >> matchup.

Also, back to the numbers at one point we had the 55/45 thing and I think we took it all the way to 75/25 (or maybe 70/30) by multiples of 5, which was 4 to 5 degrees of difference. I liked that.

i agree that on a scale of >, >>, >>> the matchup would be kirby >> luigi, but with the two >> system i think it's only kirby > luigi.

 

[Yobolight]

lol. We don't know what sort of experince YOU have though.

I don't know what kind of experience you have either, to be fair.

 

[kys]

He has a reputable community from all around the country to back him up.

You have a small group of friends you've played locally with.

That's the point.

 

[The Star King]

His MU chart is weirdly good

I think it's probably coincidence/reading the actual MU chart and then just changing the things that he feels strongly about.

I doubt very much if he's OK

Wut, his matchup chart wasn't god-awful, but I wouldn't go so as far as "weirdly good". But I should have known you'd agree with his scrubby opinions

iirc there's like three matchups in the whole chart that are >>

There were a lot more I think. If not then there should be more.

clubba was summing up the MU pretty well, until when he decided to be a dirk and said that it's > (because of crappy fireballs? r u serious). Even with just a two >> system (why would we use that?), I'd say it's Kirby >> Luigi.

I don't know what kind of experience you have either, to be fair.

Well, it doesn't really matter that you don't. The point was that this forum knows what kind of experience I have. I play online and st00f, you don't. edit: ninja'd by kys

 

[clubbadubba]

i only hesitate to say kirby >> luigi (in the >, >> scale) because I don't think its on the same level as some of the more horrible match-ups in the game, like say, luigi >> jiggs

 

[Yobolight]

Wut, his matchup chart wasn't god-awful, but I wouldn't go so as far as "weirdly good". But I should have known you'd agree with his scrubby opinions

It was weirdly good because it was a more accurate match up chart than the joke that is posted as the official one.
Kirby > Ness? LOL. That match up is a freaking >>

Well, it doesn't really matter that you don't. The point was that this forum knows what kind of experience I have. I play online and st00f, you don't. edit: ninja'd by kys

Lol.

 

[prisonchild]

what are some points for it being kirby >> luigi?

 

[Frogles]

mainly the fact that he can't approach kirby at all, with anything. luigi just has a bad approach due to slow air movement and a really high short hop. i don't think i have to tell you how good kirbys defense is.

luigi can't do defense that well either in this matchup. all of kirbys attacks start quickly and have massive hitboxes. combine this with his good air movement and he doesn't really have a problem approaching a slow char like luigi. fireballs don't really help, as i'm pretty sure kirby can duck under em. pretty much all of kirbys moves eat fireball anyway (they also eat the rest of luigis attacks).

 

[The Star King]

What Frogles said. And saying that Luigi can force Kirby to approach with fireballs is meh because Kirby can still poke at Luigi with short hop bairs

Spoiler

like with Puff nairs

and it's super safe, and will force Luigi to shield or get hit or jump over or whatever. Forcing interaction, basically. Way more dangerous than fireballs that move slowly, can be eaten easily, have a laggy animation, and have little reward, so it can be done if Luigi refuses to approach and spams fireballs and Kirby will still have a large advantage.

It was weirdly good because it was a more accurate match up chart than the joke that is posted as the official one.
Kirby > Ness? LOL. That match up is a freaking >>

Yeah that chart is awful but that doesn't mean yours is "weirdly good". Look what you've done Battlecow, now he's gonna think his chart is boss even more than he already did.

Lol.

Lol.

 

[prisonchild]

i thought those were all points for it being kirby > luigi :| i guess it depends on how severe you think those factors are, and i don't think they're insurmountable. you guys make it seem like the matchup is broken

 

[The Star King]

i thought those were all points for it being kirby > luigi :|

Wut? And yeah it's pretty bad.

 

[Frogles]

i thought those were all points for it being kirby > luigi :| i guess it depends on how severe you think those factors are, and i don't think they're insurmountable. you guys make it seem like the matchup is broken

if luigi can't do defense well and he can't approach at all, then what the **** can he do in this matchup that makes it kirby>luigi?

 

[Izuhu]

Kirby >> Luigi or Kirby +2 or +3 against Luigi (w/e system you guys plan to use)

(Don't matter the stage) Luigi is gonna get ***** tryna approach those feets.

Spoiler

Those ****ing feets

 

[prisonchild]

if luigi can't do defense well and he can't approach at all, then what the **** can he do in this matchup that makes it kirby>luigi?

luigi's real kryptonite is speed (falcon/fox). lighter, floatier characters are more his domain. luigi's defense against kirby is more mediocre than bad, as his floatiness keeps aerial options open for him. punishment isn't as bad either because of luigi's floatiness. also i like to think there's more than two parts to a game of smash. what about edgegame? call me crazy but i think luigi has an advantage here.

i agree that even when luigi plays a defensive game he has a disadvantage against kirby, but imo if two players of equal skill played kirby would 2-3 stock on average as opposed to 4-5 which (to me) would be kirby >> luigi

 

[Frogles]

i think jigglypuff is pretty much his only domain (samus >= luigi ). kirby isn't really floaty anyway, just light. while he dies to up b at like 25% (maybe less), his stupid hitboxes and speed make it waaaay harder for luigi to get that(or basically anything) compared to jiggs. i don't know what the hell you mean by keeping his aerial options open, but i'll agree that punishment is less severe at LOW percentages. i don't think it matters much since kirby can EASILY open him up again.

really, REALLY disagree on edgegame. kirby multiple jumps beats anyone off edge hard except for maybe pika. he doesn't even need to go off edge to get luigi with his super-disjointed dtilt.

 

[ballin4life]

It's true >_> I don't say these things lightly like some other people. You know me, everything I say is based off of EXPERIENCE

I must have missed all the z2d combos in e.g. this match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-NBcRxEOwY

 

[WOTG]

You all are n00bs, Kirby vs Luigi isn't that bad for Luigi at all

 

[Izuhu]

Well good luck getting footjobs by Kirby, 24/7, day and night, non stop with no piss and **** breaks inbetween

 

[WOTG]

I'm a witness to Killer doing really well against MATTS! kirby, and even I have. I also do pretty ok against Boom's kirby by standards.

Most people only think it's so bad cuz you don't know how to play the match-up.

 

[Frogles]

i do pretty well against matts kirby with ness.

guess it isn't the worst matchup in the game. you only think its so bad cuz you don't know how to play it.

 

[clubbadubba]

there is no match-up where highest level players of equal skill consistently end up with 4-5 stocks left in a 5 stock match

 

[Battlecow]

That has never been what the +1/+2 system has meant. Ever. Don't start this again.

 

[Fish641]

the thing is no one knows that the +/- system or the ratio system even means, so rating them like this is laughably pointless.

Standardize your scales, people.

 

[asianaussie]

large advantage
advantage
small advantage
even

seriously

 

[cmu6eh]

What would the list look like if every level were set up like classic mushroom kingdom, ie move the vertical death boundaries so that they lined up with each stages' ledges?

 

[clubbadubba]

What would the list look like if every level were set up like classic mushroom kingdom, ie move the vertical death boundaries so that they lined up with each stages' ledges?

OH MY GOD, would ness be better than pikachu?

 

[reed302]

thats very nice game tell me who is the winner

 

[TANK64]

C'mon now, you're saying this crap too?

It's true...

Spoiler

Not that I take part in these discussions.