The New Match-up Chart

[Superstar]

I agree with Fireblaster. Theory Fighter arguments are really only good for the "feel" of it, and helping people who don't understand the matchup at least have some understanding on a basic level.

 

[t3h Icy]

if one person says something, it does not mean that it is to be changed. It should be discussed first. I suggested Pika > Puff instead of Pika >> Puff so that we could discuss it, have a few people play the matchup, and come with a consensus. Until we decide what the matchup should be, we should keep it to what it was before. Changing after every person says something will result in a terrible chart.

I don't get why icy changes every matchup when some random dude (not everybody) just chimes in and he instantly changes. stupid

I only did that with the initial bunch since I knew there were errors to begin with, and this topic had a bad start, since the final chart had Samus high, Jigglypuff and Kirby low, etc, so I used the first changes to fix that and hopefully boost the incentive to work on it (which it seems to have done). Unless others are blatantly obvious, I'm going to wait for discussion with following match-ups, since a single opinion isn't enough to establish who is more likely to win.

(Tournament Stuff)

Well, I personally would love to partake in tournaments (despite I'm in a level below most of the players here), and I don't see why everyone would be here and not play games in a large competition. Maybe a new online one should be made to see how a turn-out would be. Perhaps some motivation would help.

Regarding the point of a match-up chart, I'm just making it because I like to make stuff like this, and the other two Smash Bros games have one, so I stepped up to make one for this one. Although the difference in character ranks/tier is not nearly as vast as Melee or Brawl's, a chart like this could be a good start for new players to get an idea of how they should counterpick (again, if tournaments become frequent) and how they should play their characters to overcome bad match-ups through reading what some people had to say about them.

There should be a separate Hyrule matchup chart and Dreamland matchup chart. A lot of matchups change dramatically when going between the stages due to the difference in gimping potential, camping space, and platform roofs. Consolidating this info into a single matchup chart doesn't give a very accurate picture of what is going on.

Well if there is enough motivation to go through all that, then I will. For now, I think a single chart will do.

geez, even MK doesn't have matchups that godly.

Pikachu is basically broken, but unlike Meta-Knight, Pikachu takes a decent amount of skill to get good with, rather than hitting B rapidly and tapping down on the C-Stick. Personally, I would say Fox is the best character against Pikachu that isn't another Pikachu.

 

[WOTG]

WOTG's matchups are so wrong and off. Besides the pika one in which Luigi does better against pika than mario does (lol), apparently luigi is even with all the other characters except one?

People should just stop trying to make these charts solely by discussing it. Like me and surri have said before, this is purely theory fighter and accomplishes nothing. Sure, you can make long 8 paragraph essays discussing a single match up instead of just using 3 sentences. But in the end, it doesn't even matter (lol) because it's all just OPINION and the only thing that determines how valid it is depends on how good the player is that formed the opinion. The most valid and accurate way to make a match up chart is for more tournaments to be held so people can play to win more and be more involved. But everyone's too lazy or whatever to host a tournament and actually finish it. The last 4 online tournies I've been in have never finished, how is that possible? Tourney hosts are too lazy to kick and DQ people for being inactive and therefore this doesn't actually finish. How is there supposed to be incentive for competition if any time a good player is about to get recognition for possibly winning a tournament, it doesn't finish and the SSB64 online scene dies a little more?

To agree and to disagree is a wonderful part of a discussion. Justifying your (highlighted in bold) however is not.

I like the entire match-up study. I also think Kefit brought up a neat idea.

 

[P D]

PD does not approve of this.

fox dk and cf = blue all across the board

 

[firo]

There is a definite amount of Ness hatred on these boards, and he is definitely under appreciated in his capabilities. I would certainly give him an even matchup with falcon, and personally I would even give ness a slight advantage here, but that's just me. I feel that Ness here does have the superior approach and can take advantage of falcon's heaviness and combo him much easier than falcon can. If at any point falcon shields, ness can just either shield break or throw him for an easy gimp. I would also give ness the advantage against DK - I don't see any reason why this matchup would be even besides DK's superior throws. Ness can destroy DK with his DJC and easily disrupt his recovery.

Yoshi, too, seems to be a character that Ness should have an advantage over. utilts, uairs, and throws can take out almost all of Yoshi's approach moves.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi combos Jiggly better than most chars I'd say. Fair, nair, and dash attack are all very combo friendly against her.

And Yoshi also ***** her shield. I usually get atleast 1 shield break a game vs jiggly.

I'd say its an even matchup.

 

[Skrlx]

all i can say is play boom or peek's ness and you'll see he is underrated

 

[Blue Yoshi]

PD does not approve of this.

fox dk and cf = blue all across the board

What about the matchups involving two of them? Fox >> DK and DK >> Fox? and CF >> CF?

This thread was fail a long time ago, and the more we've been trying to help it, the more it's failed. Our best method was the 'three matchups at a time', but for some reason, we stopped that (lack of interest?).

Surri, didn't you say you had a plan on doing a matchup chart? Or was that the tier list? I can't remember, and I'm too lazy to search through the posts

 

[Kefit]

all i can say is play boom or peek's ness and you'll see he is underrated

Playing against Boom's Ness is what made me realize how overrated Ness generally is.

Or maybe it just made me realize how unfair Pika vs Ness is.

Maybe both.

 

[MattNF]

all i can say is play boom or peek's ness and you'll see he is underrated

I've played against them, and I still think Ness sucks lol

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Boom himself says Ness sucks

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi combos Jiggly better than most chars I'd say. Fair, nair, and dash attack are all very combo friendly against her.

And Yoshi also ***** her shield. I usually get atleast 1 shield break a game vs jiggly.

I'd say its an even matchup.

I agree except I think Jiggly still has a tiny edge against Yoshi


and Jiggly vs Falcon is very very close, I'd say it is even


Kirby doesn't super own Yoshi either


Link has a mild advantage vs Samus which is bigger on Hyrule, buttpoke (up-air), forward-air, even down-air is better than any of Samus's moves prioritywise except for startup up-b, which can be DI-ed out of semi-reliably.

Link's edgeguard vs Samus is pretty easy also since you just need to throw a bomb on Samus when Samus up-b's the ledge, then follow that up with down-air.

Samus has some moves of her own, but Link gives her a slightly harder time. Samus doesn't have the priority or projectile spamability of Link

 

[ballin4life]

There is a definite amount of Ness hatred on these boards, and he is definitely under appreciated in his capabilities. I would certainly give him an even matchup with falcon, and personally I would even give ness a slight advantage here, but that's just me. I feel that Ness here does have the superior approach and can take advantage of falcon's heaviness and combo him much easier than falcon can. If at any point falcon shields, ness can just either shield break or throw him for an easy gimp. I would also give ness the advantage against DK - I don't see any reason why this matchup would be even besides DK's superior throws. Ness can destroy DK with his DJC and easily disrupt his recovery.

Yoshi, too, seems to be a character that Ness should have an advantage over. utilts, uairs, and throws can take out almost all of Yoshi's approach moves.

Ness has a better approach than falcon????????? What????

 

[Surri-Sama]

Boom himself says Ness sucks

dis r tru fax

kirbeh r teh sux too, DK pwns dem all!

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness is quite average on american version (throw him off and he is dead if you can edgeguard), but on japanese version he is quite good. Better recovery and more powerful attacks.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ness is god

dont hate the playa hate the game!

 

[t3h Icy]

Pikachu > Jigglypuff to Pikachu >> Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Mario = Link to Mario > Link (forgot to change it last time)
Jigglypuff > Yoshi to Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Falcon to Jigglypuff = Falcon
Link = Samus to Link > Samus

What do you think?

Also, to the argument of "less discussing, more playing", me and Firo play a dozen or more games almost every night with varying characters. I just also like discussing it too.

 

[P D]

this is a funny thread you have here

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Why exactly did we bring this up again ...
In my oh so humble opinion I don't really think that tiers matter in this game besides Pika > everyone, Kirby = boring, Fox, Falcon and Mario can duke it out for 3rd, 4th and 5th, Ness sucks, and everyone else is in BELOW THE TOP 5 tier. Except for Samus, who REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks. And Link, whose recovery also REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY sucks.

i would like to see u play my samus and still say she REALLY sucks

Pikachu > Jigglypuff to Pikachu >> Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Mario = Link to Mario > Link (forgot to change it last time)
Jigglypuff > Yoshi to Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Falcon to Jigglypuff = Falcon
Link = Samus to Link > Samus

What do you think?

Also, to the argument of "less discussing, more playing", me and Firo play a dozen or more games almost every night with varying characters. I just also like discussing it too.

being a samus mainer, IN MY OPINION i would have samus>luigi, samus=mario, samus>>dk, samus>link, samus<<falcon, samus=ness, samus>yoshi, samus>kirby, samus<<fox, samus<pika, samus>jiggs. i would be more than happy to discuss any particular matchup and why i think it is right

 

[t3h Icy]

Well, your opinions on Samus conflict with the chart's Luigi, Mario, DK, Link, Kirby, and Yoshi. Mind sharing, especially Kirby and DK?

 

[MattNF]

samus>luigi, samus=mario, samus>>dk, samus>link, samus>kirby

 

[Deleted member]

fthrow -> giant punch
dair -> usmash
backthrow
just about any **** tent combo

all kill at stupidly low percents. DK also has much, much more range and priority against jiggly.

Jiggly can gimp DK easily with backthrow and dair to edgegaurd, but that's about it.

those are all good noob pwning combos but a good jiggly can mash out of forward throw before getting giant punched

landing a down-air on a good jiggly is very hard

neutral air beats out a lot of dk's aerials


Jiggly doesn't need the **** tent to combo Dk to death and if Jiggly gets to a very high percent she becomes a pain to kill

Dk does not super own jigglypuff

 

[WOTG]

I don't think anyone super owns anyone. I think that some characters just have a more difficult time against others.
For example, the most obvious match-up would be jiggz vs luigi. A jiggz player can beat a luigi player, but jiggz is going to have a more difficult time defeating luigi than luigi will vice versa.

 

[Daedatheus]

I don't think anyone super owns anyone.

Pikachu super owns Link. I stand by that

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Well, your opinions on Samus conflict with the chart's Luigi, Mario, DK, Link, Kirby, and Yoshi. Mind sharing, especially Kirby and DK?

i know it does, but when i play smash, this is how i feel about the matchups, again, speakin as a samus mainer. dk is so big and slower than samus that its pretty hard to miss him and as far as kirby goes, kirby tends to float alot, kinda like jiggs, so kirby is also an easy target for samus

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Kirby tends to stand on the ground, face away from you, and spam up-tilt.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Kirby tends to stand on the ground, face away from you, and spam up-tilt.

all of the kirbys ive played are always floatin up in the air, so theyre an easy target for upB or fair or bair. and when they do decide to spam utilt, i just try not to be above them

 

[Daedatheus]

and when they do decide to spam utilt, i just try not to be above them

When they spam utilt, fire fully charged shots at them and/or drop bombs on them

 

[t3h Icy]

Pikachu > Jigglypuff to Pikachu >> Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario = Link to Mario > Link

Are likely to be in when I update it.

Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Jigglypuff > Yoshi to Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Falcon to Jigglypuff = Falcon
Link = Samus to Link > Samus

Need some opinions.

Also the suggestion of Samus > Kirby, might need more discussion to get more of a consensus.

Thoughts?

 

[NixxxoN]

Pika > jiggly
Pikachu > Samus
Mario > Link
Mario > Kirby
Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Jigglypuff = Falcon
Link > Samus
Samus = Kirby

 

[malva00]

why you guys so obsessed with such useless info?

especially from data coming from n00bs

i wouldn't even be able to make a decision on most of the match ups

 

[rpotts]

why you guys so obsessed with such useless info?

especially from data coming from n00bs

i wouldn't even be able to make a decision on most of the match ups

Yeah, i might consider a match up list, but only from info collected from veteran players. Basically isai wins, flawless victory.

/thread

 

[t3h Icy]

If you're referring to me as a noob, I've been here (lurking) for years, and whether or not I'm good, I'm just the chart maker

Otherwise, I'm trying to get some opinions out of the better players.

And yeah, most people are better off playing than discussing, but some players can learn a little bit from it. It's also fun to some people, like me.

 

[malva00]

I wouldn't mind such a topic if someone could explain to me how people can come up with these decisions on advantages when I can't even make a decision on a lot of them. Is it because you need a decision or else you're not satisfied?

I doubt the people here are good enough to come together with accurate answers. Most of the people here come up with their conclusions from online play, which is funny. The chart would be full of EVENS if I made it which would mean "undetermined" to me, not really even.

You would need a lot of good players playing with each other on the n64 for a long time.

You can have discussions about character match ups without trying to have <'s and >'s and ='s attached to them.

 

[t3h Icy]

The decisions are usually decided on when both characters are analyzed on what options they have against another character, and how effective they would be in either doing damage, avoiding taking damage back, and KO/Gimping ability. With the other character's taken into account, you can create "sets" of moves and possibilities that would work.

Take Falcon vs Link for an example. Falcon has speed over Link, while Link has projectiles, which means Falcon has to approach eventually, while Link can camp Falcon until he approaches. From there, Link can do any of his aerials, B-moves, ground moves, etc, but you can cross off many unviable ones, such as Up-B, or Down-Air (this is considering Falcon is low on damage). Of course then, you have to factor in stage settings and such. On Falcon's part, one of the easiest ways for him to rack up damage would be the Fthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> ?, etc. So there's all these possibilities and factors, and how do you decide on a decision like that? Well, through experience, you can pick up on what works and what doesn't (I'm sure you know all about that), and it can help render a decision, or at least an opinion.

But of course, even if we have a perfectly good chart, it's very rare two players are of equal skill levels, and follow through with all the "correct" and "logical" decisions, since you can always counter the opponent, unless something about them is broken. Look at Armada and Mango who are using supposedly worse characters, but wiped out many Top-tier Character users.

And again, I'm hoping some of the veterans add input to help construct the chart. In your opinion, there are a lot of evens, but I'm guessing you're factoring in skill a lot more. If you were in a serious competition against tough opposition and a large sum of money on the line, would you be more inclined to using your Pikachu, or would you still play with "lesser" characters such as Link, Samus and DK? Pikachu has many pros against every character, and that definitely helps a player at winning, but again, skill is more important.

If I could ask you one question Malva00, what would you say is the hardest match-up in the game?

Edit: And even though most of the posts do include >'s, <'s and ='s, there is still discussion nonetheless, especially since there's many disagreements already.

 

[malva00]

lol at your post falcon vs link? what a n00b example

if you read my post you wouldn't say I think there are a lot of evens

too lazy to answer your weird questions

 

[WOTG]

malva00,
I think studying match-ups is more about what character has to be extra more careful against another. When I use someone like Yoshi, I don't have much of a problem against Link, Fox, Falcon, and DK, because I can combo them to h***. As for against lighter characters, I would have to be more careful, because Yoshi can't really juggle them. All I could mainly do is bombard them with timed attacks while I also could rush them off the edge to pull off a spike.
When it comes to something like "super owning" another character, I think thats pushing it too far. Link vs Kirby or Pikachu for example; Kirby and Pikachu are not going to always own Link no matter what. Link just has to be more careful about approaching them, and not just run in with aerials like hes superman.

 

[earthadept]

why are people arguing with isai

 

[t3h Icy]

Is it a noob example because it's incorrect, or the idea doesn't explain a match properly? Well maybe I wasn't specific enough and it comes off as how a noob Link and a noob Falcon would approach (I'm not the greatest player myself). Basically, to come to a decision from evaluating options and viability. But since there is no character that can render the opponent useless, as the opponent can always have an option, I can see your point of having evens across the board. I think the problem is there are two different groups of opinions. Let me try to demonstrate.

Here are two video of Isai vs Park, Park using the same character, on the same stage, and both matches are about the same date.

DK vs Falcon, which is a "bad" match against Falcon.

Pikachu vs Falcon, which is a "good" match against Falcon.

In the DK match, almost all of your offense came from Grabs, and in the Pikachu match, you were able to do many other attacks and still effectively KO Park. Falcon also had a much harder time approaching and attacking Pikachu, compared to DK. In both matches though, Isai did win, but the Pikachu match was much easier for you.

But since you played carefully, and approached better, you still won both matches, so I'm guessing that since you can beat any character with any character is where "mostly evens" come from, and not just from Malva00, since other people disagreed with making the chart. However, myself and other smashers think that because Falcon has an easier match-up against DK as compared to Pikachu, we use the system of >'s, <'s and ='s. But I suppose maybe we're just incorrectly showing the data. Maybe a ranking system of easiest-hardest matches would make more sense, since you can't perfectly determine a match-up since a character can win against any other character if they're played right, but there are noticeable differences in effectiveness. So would a ranking system per se, alongside with in-depth discussion about a character's match-up, without >'s, <'s and ='s make more sense in your opinion?

As for the weird questions, I don't see what you don't understand. If you were in a Genesis-sized tournament and in the Grand Finals for example, would you be more inclined in using Pikachu, or would you use another character?

 

[Zen Yore]

any good falcon can gtfo of DK's gayness