The New Match-up Chart

[malva00]

I guess there's no point talking with n00bs

 

[t3h Icy]

Well explain yourself then.

 

[Deleted member]

malva00,
I think studying match-ups is more about what character has to be extra more careful against another. When I use someone like Yoshi, I don't have much of a problem against Link, Fox, Falcon, and DK, because I can combo them to h***. As for against lighter characters, I would have to be more careful, because Yoshi can't really juggle them. All I could mainly do is bombard them with timed attacks while I also could rush them off the edge to pull off a spike.
When it comes to something like "super owning" another character, I think thats pushing it too far. Link vs Kirby or Pikachu for example; Kirby and Pikachu are not going to always own Link no matter what. Link just has to be more careful about approaching them, and not just run in with aerials like hes superman.

your previous posts on your matchup opinions make it impossible to trust what you have to say

same for this one


also, dumb to ask who a person would use if money was on the line and they cared about winning

 

[WOTG]

your previous posts on your matchup opinions make it impossible to trust what you have to say

same for this one


also, dumb to ask who a person would use if money was on the line and they cared about winning

Hmm. I'll just refrain from posting if sharing my opinion on a Super Smash Bros discussion requires a credibility contest.

 

[Deleted member]

you shouldn't since about 80% of your opinion on matchups are really bad


actually more like 90%

 

[WOTG]

you shouldn't since about 80% of your opinion on matchups are really bad


actually more like 90%

100% Opinion. No Detail or Explanation. I'm too ignorant, and you're not helping at all.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Matchup threads never ever ever work do they?

The last one we had was pretty good, I think surri closed it or something probably to feel better about himself or wtv

 

[Fireblaster]

100% Opinion. No Detail or Explanation. I'm too ignorant, and you're not helping at all.

Pika being even with Luigi is way too wrong to be called opinion. Your opinions suck donkey ****.

 

[Deleted member]

100% Opinion. No Detail or Explanation. I'm too ignorant, and you're not helping at all.

Yeah


you don't explain yourself for your stupid matchup thinkings. How is Pikachu/ Captain Falcon equal to Luigi? You think its easy to just prance in on them as Luigi and have your way with them?

How is Pika equal to anybody


and btw, observing noobs isn't really a good idea of getting the feel of who beats who, just pointing that out

being a noob yourself doesn't help either

 

[m3gav01t]

yeessss....let the hate flow through you!

 

[WOTG]

Yeah


you don't explain yourself for your stupid matchup thinkings. How is Pikachu/ Captain Falcon equal to Luigi? You think its easy to just prance in on them as Luigi and have your way with them?

How is Pika equal to anybody


and btw, observing noobs isn't really a good idea of getting the feel of who beats who, just pointing that out

being a noob yourself doesn't help either

Lol, way to be insultive and prejudice about someone you don't even know about.

No, it wouldn't be entirely easy to prance on anyone. I find Luigi to be able to effectively defend himself, while also have effective combos against all these characters.
You think Kirby and Pika is not a even match up?

 

[Deleted member]

yeessss....let the hate flow through you!

I feel it coursing through my veins, the nerd rage

 

[Fireblaster]

You think Kirby and Pika is not a even match up?

You jerk, I was drinking my soda while reading this. Now I gotta clean my screen and keyboard.

 

[t3h Icy]

Ok, now that we're done with the aside, let's get back on track.

Mario = Link to Mario > Link
Link = Samus to Link > Samus
Jigglypuff > Yoshi to Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Falcon to Jigglypuff = Falcon

Are within some agreement. Opinions?

Pikachu > Jigglypuff to Pikachu >> Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby

Are not agreed with. Again, opinions?

 

[asianaussie]

malva00,
I think studying match-ups is more about what character has to be extra more careful against another. When I use someone like Yoshi, I don't have much of a problem against Link, Fox, Falcon, and DK, because I can combo them to h***. As for against lighter characters, I would have to be more careful, because Yoshi can't really juggle them. All I could mainly do is bombard them with timed attacks while I also could rush them off the edge to pull off a spike.

This community is very elitist. I'd make more vague comments to avoid flaming. Also, if you don't know what you're talking about (ie. you haven't faced anyone who can totally destroy you without loss of life) you shouldn't use your own gameplay as an example. Though there is no real 'optimal' gameplay, most characters have pretty broad varieties of tricks. Good Yoshis can own light characters. You don't need U-Tilt for everything (seems to be the main complaint against light chars - U-Tilt doesn't juggle well). Hell, pull of a DJC F-Air on a grounded Jiggs at 80% and you've got an U-Air KO right there.

Also, to the community in general...it probably would be better to tell this guy why he's wrong rather than yelling at him and calling him a noob.

I won't comment on matchups anymore...I doubt I'm qualified. I just want to know about the Samus-Luigi one.

 

[WOTG]

You jerk, I was drinking my soda while reading this. Now I gotta clean my screen and keyboard.

Don't aim for your computer!

This community is very elitist. I'd make more vague comments to avoid flaming. Also, if you don't know what you're talking about (ie. you haven't faced anyone who can totally destroy you without loss of life) you shouldn't use your own gameplay as an example. Though there is no real 'optimal' gameplay, most characters have pretty broad varieties of tricks. Good Yoshis can own light characters. You don't need U-Tilt for everything (seems to be the main complaint against light chars - U-Tilt doesn't juggle well). Hell, pull of a DJC F-Air on a grounded Jiggs at 80% and you've got an U-Air KO right there.

I observe my own matches and other people's matches. My skill, I'll say I'm "okay", I'm not going to hail myself as Elite. I've played players to all skill levels, mainly decent players. I have played some Elite players and its usually either me getting 2-3 stocked or it being close. I would have videos but my comp doesn't work too well with recording.
If you would like to see my Yoshi, we could play some time.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't aim for your computer!


I observe my own matches and other people's matches. My skill, I'll say I'm "okay", I'm not going to hail myself as Elite. I've played players to all skill levels, mainly decent players. I have played some Elite players and its usually either me getting 2-3 stocked or it being close. I would have videos but my comp doesn't work too well with recording.
If you would like to see my Yoshi, we could play some time.

who are these "elite" players?



Anyways, I suppose I will refute your argument on Pika vs Luigi. Pikachu's up-tilt beats any aerial approach of Luigi, and Luigi's speed is very awkward and sort of slow. Pika's approach, on the other hand, is very good because up-air was very godly priority that is only beaten by the standard up-smash, up-tilt moves (not sure about up-tilt).

Luigi has decent kill combos on Pikachu, but they are much harder to pull off because Luigi's speed and priorty sucks.

Pika's on the other hand, aren't as hard simply because Pikachu has the speed and priority to pull them off. Infinite up-airs off the edge wreck Luigi and it doesn't help that Luigi doesn't have the greatest horizontal recovery. Luigi also doesn't have the luxury of Mario fireballs that protect him as he tries to recover. His up-b doesn't knock opponents away like mario's and a coin tap is probably not going to grant you a safe recovery. Pikachu, probably the best edgeguarder in the game can do as i stated before up-airs for a while or even do basic stuff like f-smash the edge until Luigi is dead.


Unless your pika opponent sucks, pikachus can't be gimped by Luigi like Pikachu can gimp Luigi.

It's blatantly Pikachu-sided. Making this decision isn't that hard either since Pikachu has no bad matchups

--

Now something like Luigi vs Samus is a lot harder to define, I am clueless and don't want to simply pick one and say they have the advantage


---

and f-air on a grounded jigglypuff at 80% won't net you an up-air kill, jiggly flies too high

 

[WOTG]

who are these "elite" players?

I played many great players, but I'm not going to entirely make a list, because I don't know if people would want me to put out their names like that. But I'll name some cool ones just for you. Ybombb, Mario, Sheer, and contrary to popular opinion, the great MATTS!

Anyways, I suppose I will refute your argument on Pika vs Luigi. Pikachu's up-tilt beats any aerial approach of Luigi, and Luigi's speed is very awkward and sort of slow. Pika's approach, on the other hand, is very good because up-air was very godly priority that is only beaten by the standard up-smash, up-tilt moves (not sure about up-tilt).

Luigi has decent kill combos on Pikachu, but they are much harder to pull off because Luigi's speed and priorty sucks.

Pika's on the other hand, aren't as hard simply because Pikachu has the speed and priority to pull them off. Infinite up-airs off the edge wreck Luigi and it doesn't help that Luigi doesn't have the greatest horizontal recovery. Luigi also doesn't have the luxury of Mario fireballs that protect him as he tries to recover. His up-b doesn't knock opponents away like mario's and a coin tap is probably not going to grant you a safe recovery. Pikachu, probably the best edgeguarder in the game can do as i stated before up-airs for a while or even do basic stuff like f-smash the edge until Luigi is dead.


Unless your pika opponent sucks, pikachus can't be gimped by Luigi like Pikachu can gimp Luigi.

It's blatantly Pikachu-sided. Making this decision isn't that hard either since Pikachu has no bad matchups

I'll admit that Pikachu is cheap in many aspects. His priorities are above just about every character. My Pikachu isn't that great, and I've played and seen good Pikachus, and so far it looks to me that Pikachu can be fairly comboed and owned. Though, you should be right.

 

[Nintendude]

Samus matchups imo:

Samus < Pikachu
Samus < Kirby
Samus = Ness
Samus << Fox
Samus << Falcon
Samus = Jiggly (possibly Samus < Jiggly or somewhere in between)
Samus < Mario
Samus = Yoshi
Samus < DK
Samus < Luigi
Samus < Link

I'll do Falcon too:

Falcon = Pika
Falcon < Kirby
Falcon > Ness
Falcon = Fox
Falcon = Jiggly
Falcon = Mario
Falcon > Yoshi
Falcon > DK
Falcon > Luigi
Falcon >> Samus
Falcon > Link

 

[Zantetsu]

Falcon >> Samus

This is the only one that kinda confuses me. I could see Falcon being just one > above Samus, but 2? I'm not sure what Falcon has against Samus to make him a double >. Samus is very lightweight and is quite difficult to combo with Falcon.

I don't know, I could be missing something. You could be right but I just don't understand it without an explanation.

 

[rpotts]

This is the only one that kinda confuses me. I could see Falcon being just one > above Samus, but 2? I'm not sure what Falcon has against Samus to make him a double >. Samus is very lightweight and is quite difficult to combo with Falcon.

I don't know, I could be missing something. You could be right but I just don't understand it without an explanation.

That's exactly what I was thinking, samus is one of least favorite opponents with falcon for a few reasons. Being lightweight and thus harder to combo, especially at medium percents and up. She can edgeguard falcon well, facing away from the ledge and dairing right when i go to grab it, the attack comes out very quickly and extends below her so if executed correctly it's basically impossible to get the ledge. If the falcon chooses not to go for the ledge she can simply use her bair which will likely out prioritize any fair or nair falcon may try to counter it with. Then falcon, out of jumps and knocked far off the ledge from samus's best finisher, falls helplessly, -1.

Plus she can use her charge shot to edgeguard safely from the stage, and if falcon gets hit with even a completely uncharged shot, he loses forward momentum and starts falling. Again, -1.

 

[Daedatheus]

She can edgeguard falcon well

Down+B bomb to Dair ***** Falcon recovering low

 

[NixxxoN]

Samus matchups imo:

Samus < Pikachu
Samus < Kirby
Samus = Ness
Samus << Fox
Samus << Falcon
Samus = Jiggly (possibly Samus < Jiggly or somewhere in between)
Samus < Mario
Samus = Yoshi
Samus < DK
Samus < Luigi
Samus < Link

I'll do Falcon too:

Falcon = Pika
Falcon < Kirby
Falcon > Ness
Falcon = Fox
Falcon = Jiggly
Falcon = Mario
Falcon > Yoshi
Falcon > DK
Falcon > Luigi
Falcon >> Samus
Falcon > Link

What.
Jiggs is liek the only one that samus can destroy. moar range equal floatyness
Falcon gets owned by mario and pika imo.. mario fireballs/combos and pika's broken attacks. Both have a way better recovery and can gimp kill Falcon easily.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

...

hmmm

DONKEY KONG FOR GOD TIER

LINK >>>>> PIKACHU ON DREAMLAND!

/smoking crack

 

[Zen Yore]

Matchup threads never ever ever work do they?

The last one we had was pretty good, I think surri closed it or something probably to feel better about himself or wtv

i laaaff'd

 

[t3h Icy]

Mario = Link to Mario > Link
Jigglypuff > Yoshi to Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Falcon to Jigglypuff = Falcon
Link = Samus to Link > Samus
Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus

Pikachu > Jigglypuff to Pikachu >> Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Falcon = Yoshi to Falcon > Yoshi
Samus > Jigglypuff to Samus = Jigglypuff

I'm going to update the chart later today with the top section, unless someone disagrees. Either way, it's not as if I can't re-change anything. It will probably drop Jigglypuff a bit, but I'll have see with all the math going on.

 

[Surri-Sama]

the great MATTS!

I thought missing tons of cancels and relying on the online delay so you can get massive Dair action (because its hard to tech away some times online) made you a scrub, not a great player

Maybe im wrong O_o


And for the first time ever, i agree with Isai!

go me :D

 

[Deleted member]

I played many great players, but I'm not going to entirely make a list, because I don't know if people would want me to put out their names like that. But I'll name some cool ones just for you. Ybombb, Mario, Sheer, and contrary to popular opinion, the great MATTS!


I'll admit that Pikachu is cheap in many aspects. His priorities are above just about every character. My Pikachu isn't that great, and I've played and seen good Pikachus, and so far it looks to me that Pikachu can be fairly comboed and owned. Though, you should be right.

Besides Isai and Superboomfan, there's only like 7-9 good players online and none of them are of the elite level. Ybombb if I recall plays 7-12 delay on purpose because he is used to it, he uses this to his advantage to win. I don't remember a guy with a plain name like Mario, Sheer is good, but he is kind of gay for Yoshi


Now MATTS! is great, i'll give you that much, I haven't faced him yet but it's because I am afraid

 

[Deleted member]

What.
Jiggs is liek the only one that samus can destroy. moar range equal floatyness
Falcon gets owned by mario and pika imo.. mario fireballs/combos and pika's broken attacks. Both have a way better recovery and can gimp kill Falcon easily.

Falcon's one of the better choices against Pika (to me) but not even


I'm not sure who wins Falcon vs Mario but fireballs aren't a problem if you jab them, Falcon edgeguards Mario pretty decently, and gimping can be avoided by not playing dumb and to the side

Falcon ? Mario

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Besides Isai and Superboomfan, there's only like 7-9 good players online and none of them are of the elite level. Ybombb if I recall plays 7-12 delay on purpose because he is used to it, he uses this to his advantage to win. I don't remember a guy with a plain name like Mario, Sheer is good, but he is kind of gay for Yoshi


Now MATTS! is great, i'll give you that much, I haven't faced him yet but it's because I am afraid

I Lol'd

Kirby is yoshi's worst matchup

kirby's up tilt is quick enough that even if you djcc, you can still be comboed, his back air and down air gimp yoshi's recovery well. Its mostly from the up tilt and the down air.
*Yoshi tries to apporach with aerials or tilts" Kirby Up tilt
*Yoshi is trying to approach with eggs" Kirby Back air

 

[SheerMadness]

Hell yah I'm gay for Yoshi.

And I'd probably agree with Koro. A smart player using Kirby is probably Yoshi's hardest matchup.

 

[Fireblaster]

Falcon's one of the better choices against Pika (to me) but not even


I'm not sure who wins Falcon vs Mario but fireballs aren't a problem if you jab them, Falcon edgeguards Mario pretty decently, and gimping can be avoided by not playing dumb and to the side

Falcon ? Mario

Jabbing isn't really a good option against fireballs. Fireballs completely shut down your ground approach, forcing you to go aerial vs. Mario's Uair/Fair, which is really dangerous. Falcon's one of the easiest characters for mario to do shdairuair on and absolutely gets ***** by all of mario's juggle moves. Mario's throws also send falcon pretty much horizontally, allowing mario to edgeguard falcon really easily (and Mario's really good at edgeguarding falcon, all he has to do is decide between Dsmash, Fsmash, or Sh Nair).

Add on to this that the mario player has to mess up hard in order for Falcon to land one of his combo starters, and it makes it an uphill battle for falcon.

Mario > Falcon

 

[Zen Yore]

Hell yah I'm gay for Yoshi.

And I'd probably agree with Koro. A smart player using Kirby is probably Yoshi's hardest matchup.

so matts shouldnt be too hard for a good yoshi amirite

 

[Surri-Sama]

so matts shouldnt be too hard for a good yoshi amirite

As long as it's PvP a good Yoshi will **** the late, great MATTS!

 

[NixxxoN]

Falcon's one of the better choices against Pika (to me) but not even


I'm not sure who wins Falcon vs Mario but fireballs aren't a problem if you jab them, Falcon edgeguards Mario pretty decently, and gimping can be avoided by not playing dumb and to the side

Falcon ? Mario

I agree at falcon vs pika.

From my experience, when i have to beat falcon i pick mario,[......] (fireblaster explained it better and more technically Lulz)

 

[Dash_Fox]

Hell yah I'm gay for Yoshi.

And I'd probably agree with Koro. A smart player using Kirby is probably Yoshi's hardest matchup.

I'm gay for your shield parries.

Does this make me gay?

 

[Nintendude]

I'll explain my thoughts behind the matchups that were questioned:

Samus << Falcon: I admit this is debatable and probably more like in between < and << but Falcon's speed is extremely overwhelming, and Samus has no reliable way to approach because of it. Yes Falcon can't combo Samus well, but that's just relative to what he can do to other characters. He can still get her off the stage really easily. Obviously Falcon gets ***** off the edge but he does vs. anyone so I don't see why that matters.

Falcon = Pika: I think he's one of the best characters at actually approaching Pika due to his speed and better range, and other than that, I honestly don't have much to say. Again, getting gimped isn't a notable factor since everyone can gimp Falcon easily. If I were playing to win Falcon would be my personal choice vs. a Pikachu.

Jiggly > Samus: Seriously, people need to learn how to play Jiggly in this matchup. Samus relies a lot on attrition imo and Jiggly totally negates that with Rest combos. Neither character has a clear speed advantage but Jiggly's maneuverability lets her get inside if you are patient enough, and once she does, Samus is in trouble. Samus has nothing vs. Jiggly except raw power and better range but combos are worth a lot more than power. Samus has the power, but Jiggly has both.

Mario = Falcon: Maybe I just really suck if I'm playing a slow character vs. Falcon but again it's the speed that swings this match to even. Next to Fox he's the best character at getting around the fireballs and then once he gets in he can do a lot more damage to Mario than most other characters can.

 

[NixxxoN]

Besides Isai and Superboomfan, there's only like 7-9 good players online and none of them are of the elite level. Ybombb if I recall plays 7-12 delay on purpose because he is used to it, he uses this to his advantage to win. I don't remember a guy with a plain name like Mario, Sheer is good, but he is kind of gay for Yoshi


Now MATTS! is great, i'll give you that much, I haven't faced him yet but it's because I am afraid

I found a guy on EGX Godweapon who is called... hmm, SmasherX74 i believe? IIRC he claimed that he beat everybody besides malva and superboom.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

lol the mods ***** and whine about these matchup threads doing exactly whats happening in this one, but yet more of them get made and we all make like 12 pages before it gets closed...

then it just happens again. Just leave this one dont close it because there will be a worse one.

Better yet, unlock the last thread we had, Ill provide a link to it soon so you can and close this one.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I found a guy on EGX Godweapon who is called... hmm, SmasherX74 i believe? IIRC he claimed that he beat everybody besides malva and superboom.

If you dont already know. he is lying

Smasher is alright at best

And Dylan there is usually something specific we wait for to closing these threads...and it shows it self over time... and we act accordingly...complicated? i hope not o.o;;