The New Match-up Chart

[NixxxoN]

judging from your posts on this board, you're not experienced at all

You suck at judging... >_>

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

DK = Jigglypuff to DK > Jigglypuff

Some Agreement:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Samus = Jigglypuff to Samus > Jigglypuff

Debating:

Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus
Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK

I only updated the chart since the difference between Jigglypuff's and DK's ranks were so small that they'd trade places once I fixed the DK vs Jigglypuff match-up.

Does anyone here main Luigi, possibly close to exclusively so we can get some input from good Luigi players? And are we going to go with Samus > Jigglypuff?

And of course, any other match-ups that you feel are incorrect, please post them and why you think it should be changed.

 

[Rubbish]

Thanks for this chart, It'll be incredibly useful to prove my stubborn friend wrong

 

[DMoogle]

Thanks for this chart, It'll be incredibly useful to prove my stubborn friend wrong

This chart is by no means proof of anything.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

don't treat this chart as the absolute truth. As we are trying are hardest to make an accurate chart, these still are simply estimations.

 

[infernovia]

Thanks for this chart, It'll be incredibly useful to prove my stubborn friend wrong

The only proof is beating them.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

According to the chart, Fox >> Puff. I beat more foxes online than I lose to. That doesn't change the fact that Fox >> Puff. Just because one character has a major advantage over another does not mean that they will always win against that character (unless you are talking about brawl, where some matchups are instant win no matter what...).

 

[infernovia]

It also helps if the people do not know how to play the specific matchup. For example, not knowing when fox's jab -> usmash becomes effective etc.

 

[earthadept]

According to the chart, Fox >> Puff. I beat more foxes online than I lose to. That doesn't change the fact that Fox >> Puff. Just because one character has a major advantage over another does not mean that they will always win against that character (unless you are talking about brawl, where some matchups are instant win no matter what...).

I love it when people make fun of brawl

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I love it when people make fun of brawl

sheik vs ganondorf

95:5

lol..

 

[Blue Yoshi]

sheik vs ganondorf

95:5

lol..

at SFU trismash 3, I used Sheik against Koskinator's Ganon (best Ganon in the world). I had never used Sheik before. I was about to three-stock him... so I threw the match instead (since... yeah... it's Sheik vs Ganon).

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks for this chart, It'll be incredibly useful to prove my stubborn friend wrong

Don't use this chart as the truth, if you think your character is disadvantaged then you will lose or play worse with that mindset

 

[Zen Yore]

this matchup still lacks a bit of perfection

 

[t3h Icy]

Luigi match-ups anyone?

 

[Kefit]

I don't think we have any truly fantastic Luigi's here, at least not on the level of the good players' mains, hence the lack of insightful input. For what it's worth, I've worked up a pretty solid Luigi recently, and in my admittedly limited experience I say Luigi = DK and Luigi = Samus. They've both got the range to keep Luigi away, and are both tricky to combo (DK because it takes forever before uair really does anything to him).

My limited experience also suggests Luigi >> Jiggly, but I don't feel comfortable giving a >> in any matchup without a lot of experience to back it up.

I'm up for playing around with some Luigi matchups if anyone's interested.

 

[Zen Yore]

orly
and whos FROG?

 

[Frogles]

orly
and whos FROG?

WAT U SAY

10watusays

 

[Nintendude]

I played some Luigi vs. Jiggly with Fireblaster today. The matches were somewhat close (always down to last stock). Both of us think it's Luigi > Jiggly. Fox wrecks Jiggly so much worse than Luigi does.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Samus = Jigglypuff to Samus > Jigglypuff

Debating:

Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus
Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK

And Samus/Jigglypuff? We seem to be leaning on Samus > Jigglypuff but two people said otherwise.

 

[Nintendude]

Luigi = DK. Luigi can have a hard time maneuvering around Bair and up-B. Up-B really doesn't kill that early either.

Luigi = Samus. Not too sure to be honest but I don't have any trouble in this matchup with Samus. Luigi is too slow to be a gay camper and has to fight Samus like a man, and Samus really isn't too bad against an opponent like that.

Luigi > Jiggly
Samus = Jiggly

 

[MattNF]

Luigi = DK
Luigi > Samus
Luigi > Jiggly
Samus = Jiggly

 

[DMoogle]

The gap between Luigi and Samus is SO much smaller than the gap between Luigi and Jiggly.

IMO.

 

[t3h Icy]

So it looks like we're nearing the end. Let me just tally up the match-ups here and I want anyone that disagrees with any one of them to state so and why (if knowledgeable).

Pikachu >> Samus
Pikachu >> Luigi
Pikachu >> Link
Pikachu >> Ness
Fox >> Samus
Fox >> Luigi
Fox >> Link
Fox >> Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Jigglypuff
Pikachu > DK
Pikachu > Yoshi
Pikachu > Mario
Pikachu > Falcon
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu > Fox
Fox > Ness
Fox > DK
Fox > Yoshi
Fox > Mario
Kirby > Samus
Kirby > Luigi
Kirby > Link
Kirby > Ness
Kirby > DK
Kirby > Yoshi
Kirby > Falcon
Falcon > Samus
Falcon > Luigi
Falcon > Link
Falcon > Ness
Falcon > DK
Falcon > Yoshi
Mario > Samus
Mario > Luigi
Mario > Link
Mario > Ness
Mario > Jigglypuff
Mario > DK
Yoshi > Samus
Yoshi > Link
Yoshi > DK
DK > Samus
DK > Ness
DK > Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff > Ness
Ness > Luigi
Ness > Link
Link > Samus
Link > Luigi
Fox = Falcon
Fox = Kirby
Kirby = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Mario
Falcon = Jigglypuff
Falcon = Mario
Yoshi = Luigi
Yoshi = Ness
Yoshi = Jigglypuff
DK = Luigi
DK = Link
Jigglypuff = Samus
Jigglypuff = Link
Ness = Samus
Luigi = Samus
Jigglypuff < Luigi

Again, please post any match-ups you feel are incorrect, put beside it how it should be in your opinion, and state why. Hopefully we can finally conclude this, and finish up with a pretty new Tier List, so the old-aged question gets put to rest. Hopefully.

 

[SheerMadness]

For the sake of conversation I'll question the Yoshi vs Fox matchup.

I can certainly agree Yoshi has a disadvantage vs Pikachu, Kirby, and Falcon but Fox seems pritty even to me.

What do you guys think?

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi's main problem is that his moves don't really come out that quick while Fox can kind of molest him very easily

Lasers kind of stop Yoshi's approach

Yoshi's solution is to play like a defensive ***** and parry everything and counterattack

I think Fox still has the advantage if he's good at baiting out parries and punishing, both can 0 to death pretty well

60-40 Fox

 

[Nintendude]

The gap between Luigi and Samus is SO much smaller than the gap between Luigi and Jiggly.

IMO.

As is the gap between Luigi and Jiggly and Fox and Jiggly. So, I think the progression Luigi = Samus, Luigi > Jiggly, Fox >> Jiggly makes sense.

btw, I still do sort of disagree with Mario > Jiggly. It's always seemed pretty even to me.

 

[thegreginator]

Luigi > DK

Sure upB doesnt work right away but Luigi can combo DK up to about 100% without too much problem. DK is tall enough you dont even need to fast fall between dair and upair and you can upair juggle for a long time. DKs bair is easy to see coming.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I see it as Mario > Jiggly, but I wouldn't complain if it were changed to Mario = Jiggly... as it is pretty close to even (though mario does have the advantage)

edit:

DKs bair is easy to see coming.

Metaknight's tornado is easy to see coming. Doesn't mean you can do anything about it...

Just because something is easy to see coming does not mean you can find an easy way around it.

 

[Deleted member]

His Back-air doesn't have that much priority, up-tilt probably beats it

 

[t3h Icy]

Debating:

Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK

For those that complained Luigi is too low (which in my opinion is true), point out which match-ups need fixing, or otherwise Luigi's position is low. If Luigi > DK goes through though I think he'll be between Ness and Link.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

For the sake of conversation I'll question the Yoshi vs Fox matchup.

I can certainly agree Yoshi has a disadvantage vs Pikachu, Kirby, and Falcon but Fox seems pritty even to me.

What do you guys think?

for some odd reason, I have more of a problem vs good fox's than vs good pikachu's.

Fox's lasers are difficult to face and fox's shield pressure is one of the best. The only way I have ever really beaten a good fox is if I don't miss any of my DJC combos .

Also, Fox is one of the better characters at gimping/edgeguarding yoshi. the first hit of the up air will automatically hit yoshi out of all DJC's

Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff

Mario> Jigglypuff. Mario's up smash kills at 60 I believe and Mario's back air, n-air and fireballs are great spacing tools.

Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK

Luigi>DK

DK is one of the few characters (samus is another) who can't seem to do much vs Luigi's down air up air storm, mostly due to DK's size and slow attacks.

 

[firo]

I'd also like to open up the Yoshi v Ness discussion.

Yoshi has virtually no approach options versus a good, defensive Ness. His up tilt destroys most of the aerial approaches and that leaves Yoshi with little to do. One of the only things Yoshi can do to stop Ness is trying to get him into an egg or something, which is very predictable and something that a Ness can get around. On the other hand, Yoshi is one of the characters that Ness can combo the easiest, especially with fair and uair combos.

Yoshi also has very little gimping capabilities due to his inability to go out and interrupt Ness's up-b. Ness can use moves like down smash or even a well timed throw to keep Yoshi off.

Overall, I really think that this should be Ness > Yoshi. I'm sure that there are others who do feel this way.

 

[MattNF]

Mario > jigglypuff

 

[SheerMadness]

Fox's lasers are difficult to face and fox's shield pressure is one of the best. The only way I have ever really beaten a good fox is if I don't miss any of my DJC combos .

Also, Fox is one of the better characters at gimping/edgeguarding yoshi. the first hit of the up air will automatically hit yoshi out of all DJC's

You can duck under the lasers. Duck/walk/duck/walk allows you to approach while they're spamming lasers. You can also dash attack from a ducking position which allows you to stay low enough to avoid lasers. Lasers are annoying but I don't think they hurt Yoshi too much.

Yoshi also edgeguards Fox much much better than he edgeguards Yoshi.

Yoshi vs Ness

Yah Yoshi doesn't approach that well but he does so many other things better than Ness does in the matchup. Yoshi edgeguards better, kills at WAY lower percents, easily gets him off the edge. I would argue Yoshi combos better too since its very easy to combo him off the stage into a spike. Ness doesn't exactly approach Yoshi well either since Yoshi's mobility is better.

 

[DMoogle]

Isai had like 2 or 3 videos about 3 months ago with two Japanese players playing Yoshi vs. Ness and they were really amazing, but he took the videos down.

 

[MarioReincarnate]

utilt spamming ness is fun to eat (neutral-b) with yoshi as an "approach"... i think yoshi>ness ALMOST... so = is fine for me

 

[P D]

.

Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK

Luigi>DK

DK is one of the few characters (samus is another) who can't seem to do much vs Luigi's down air up air storm, mostly due to DK's size and slow attacks.

pivot into grab with a bit of camp is the recipe to counter this

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

ness > yoshi

 

[Deleted member]

I can't determine Ness vs Yoshi because I have never seen a good Ness online

but if I were to stab a guess I would put Ness < Yoshi

 

[t3h Icy]

Debating:

Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK
Yoshi = Ness to Yoshi ? Ness