The New Match-up Chart

[Deleted member]

for some odd reason, I have more of a problem vs good fox's than vs good pikachu's.

Fox's lasers are difficult to face and fox's shield pressure is one of the best. The only way I have ever really beaten a good fox is if I don't miss any of my DJC combos .

Also, Fox is one of the better characters at gimping/edgeguarding yoshi. the first hit of the up air will automatically hit yoshi out of all DJC's

Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff

Mario> Jigglypuff. Mario's up smash kills at 60 I believe and Mario's back air, n-air and fireballs are great spacing tools.

Luigi = DK to Luigi > DK

Luigi>DK

DK is one of the few characters (samus is another) who can't seem to do much vs Luigi's down air up air storm, mostly due to DK's size and slow attacks.

get out of the way

wait for them to land

grab

 

[Kefit]

Exactly. Never underestimate the power of a DK who is good at spacing grabs. It's an essential part of any discussion of the massive range his attacks have.

 

[Nintendude]

"Down-air up-air storm" is really easy to get around due to Luigi's immobility. Up-B and Bair goes right through it with the proper spacing. There are characters who combo DK way worse than Luigi does.

DK = Luigi

 

[NixxxoN]

Luigi can hurt DK with fireball spam and dair spam tue to DK's size. also, Luigi is very hard to combo for DK.

The dash to grab thing doesnt work for DK in a lot of sitiuations. For example when fireball spammed, and when Luigi is in dair attack at mid air when doing a shorthop.

DK < Luigi

 

[thegreginator]

Luigi > DK
DK cant do a whole lot to combo Luigi, whereas Luigi can do a lot to combo DK. Sure, getting the first hit in with Luigi isnt always easy due to maneuverability, but just play patient and space and Luigi should always have the advantage.

Mario > Jiggly
Better approach. Fireballs. etc etc

Samus > Jiggly
Bair anyone? and jiggly had problem comboing samus

Yoshi < Ness or Yoshi = Ness
I kind of agree with Boom but this could go either way. My Ness isnt that good but I find I have more success against sheers yoshi with my ness than with many of my other better characters. djc upair has surprising priority against yoshi. also, its not that hard to combo into a spike if you djc fairs right.

 

[Nintendude]

Luigi's fireballs suck. Why would DK just run into Luigi's dairs if he has stuff that way outranges it? I fail to see how a character with better range, priority, and maneuverability will have an approach disadvantage against a character who is too immobile and slow to properly camp. Luigi can space all he wants but DK spaces better. DK doesn't really have to combo either. Land like 3 up-Bs, a bair, and a grab and it's already edgeguarding time.

I don't think Luigi is too low. He really just isn't that good a character and this matchup chart shows it. People (including myself) need to stop trying to change matchups out of bias towards a character's "proper" tier list position.

 

[NixxxoN]

I agree with all what thegreginator said

Luigi's fireballs suck. is too immobile and slow to properly camp. Luigi can space all he wants but DK spaces better. DK doesn't really have to combo either. Land like 3 up-Bs, a bair, and a grab and it's already edgeguarding time.

i disagee, Luigi can clearly camp vs DK. DK is not much faster and hasnt got projectiles. Also Luigi is not slow in vertical speed.
Oh and DK is not so good edgeguarding Luigi.

 

[MattNF]

DK = Luigi

Nixxon, you're dumb. Luigi can't camp for ****. He's slow and fireballs are terrible. DK's bair ***** most of Luigi's approaches.

Samus > Jiggly
Bair anyone? and jiggly had problem comboing samus

What about bair? It's not a problem for good Jigglypuffs.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I agree with all what thegreginator said



i disagee, Luigi can clearly camp vs DK. DK is not much faster and hasnt got projectiles. Also Luigi is not slow in vertical speed.
Oh and DK is not so good edgeguarding Luigi.

Luigi isn't slow in vertical speed. Trollface.jpg

Also, Luigi's projectiles have some of the worst priority of any move. even DK"s n-air goes through fireballs.

For edgeguards: both down air, f-air, and up b can edgeguard. Luigi's priority while recovering sucke.

 

[kabal]

Matt you should come on Godweapon more, I'd like to play your Jiggly.

 

[P D]

luigi's fire balls take way too long to activate and have a very short range and are slow.

if i was luigi i could spam fair with pivots but even that dk will probably be pretty even with you.

DK = luigi

 

[Pav7300]

A bit hard to compare matchups if the character orders aren't the same....

Its like having one be A B C/1 2 3 and the other being A C B/ 3 1 2... Get it?

 

[NixxxoN]

Nixxon, you're dumb. Luigi can't camp for ****. He's slow and fireballs are terrible. DK's bair ***** most of Luigi's approaches.

You probably suck or arent as good as you think with Luigi. And i said camp against DK. I can easily do it vs DK players at my level or similar.
Camp with fireball spam + jumps + dair + nair and ROLL (not slow)

DK isnt really good at neutralising fireballs ffs

 

[Skrlx]

DK gets owned with Luigi's dair

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

You probably suck or arent as good as you think with Luigi. And i said camp against DK. I can easily do it vs DK players at my level or similar.
Camp with fireball spam + jumps + dair + nair and ROLL (not slow)

DK isnt really good at neutralising fireballs ffs

DK's back air...f-air, up b, and even his n-air goes through the fireball. I am not perfectly sure but I believe it might have the worst priority of any projectile in that game.

Also, this is one of the only matchups where DK's slow aerials don't cause DK to lose the matchup. DK's back air beats Luigi's spacing.

Its because of one

Spoiler

(in some ways stupid)

move that DK can beat Luigi.

haven't you realized that Luigi is incredibly slow with horrible priority. Why do you think Luigi is bad in smash 64.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why don't you guys just have MU discussions to help with this.

If you can get an agreement on it then this Chart will be much more accurate.

 

[NixxxoN]

Wow so much luigi hating here... Luigi is slow only on horizontal speed... He has an average roll speed and an average vertical speed... a a character's hability is not only about speed. About the fireballs... they are sure better than no projectiole. Also Luigi's shielding moves away when he gets a strong hit. Can't shieldgrab easily

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

just because you main or secondary luigi doesn't make him good

 

[Loto]

just because you main or secondary luigi doesn't make him good

Sounds about right.

 

[MattNF]

DK isnt really good at neutralising fireballs ffs

dot dot dot

Your opinion on this matchup is invalid.

 

[Kefit]

DK's back air...f-air, up b, and even his n-air goes through the fireball. I am not perfectly sure but I believe it might have the worst priority of any projectile in that game.

uh

most projectiles in the game aside from fox's laser are canceled out by opposing attack hitboxes. Luigi's fireball is garbage for far more important reasons: it's slow as hell, has a short range, and only travels in a straight line. Plus Luigi is too slow to take advantage of the opponent canceling out the fireball or even being hit by it, like Mario routinely does.

also DK's bair is good but his grab is much, much better

 

[t3h Icy]

So are we going to go with DK > Luigi or DK = Luigi.

And with another big hit, Luigi might even drop below Samus.

 

[NixxxoN]

Your opinion on this matchup is invalid.

Your opinion should be invalid too as it seems you are not really aware about luigi's capabilities.

theres no fkin way Luigi is below samus. He can eventually combo easily to death with uairs to up+b or uairs to down+b, using shorthop.

 

[otg]

Seriously? How is Luigi below Samus or Link? I'm completely shocked by this. I don't main him, so I have no bias, and I am not a top level player so I really do not feel that my analysis in matchups (espeically low tier ones that I dont play very often) is useful or accurate, but I just cannot see him as last. Uair juggles to downb/shoryuken... he only needs one good hit to **** you to death.

 

[MattNF]

Your opinion should be invalid too as it seems you are not really aware about luigi's capabilities.

theres no fkin way Luigi is below samus. He can eventually combo easily to death with uairs to up+b or uairs to down+b, using shorthop.

I'm pretty sure I know more about this game than you. I've played good Luigi's and I can use Luigi decently myself

I don't think Luigi should be below Samus either, but that has nothing to do with the Luigi = DK argument

 

[t3h Icy]

I love how after months, some people think that I'm deciding what the ranks are.

The Rankings / Match-up "points" / Match-up Value and other numerical stuff like that are completely mathematical. I can't stress that enough since people just cannot grasp that.

Now, my point about Luigi possibly dropping below Samus is that Luigi is only above by 69 "points". That means if people agree that DK > Luigi and Luigi has one more match-up go down, that could possibly be 69 "points" down and bring him below Samus, but seeing that the majority of players agree with DK = Luigi, and nobody else is saying anything about Luigi's match-ups going down, that's not happening.

So please, no more armageddon/apocalypse that Luigi is well below. For those arguing that Luigi needs to be higher than Link, please point out an incorrect match-up. The difference between Luigi and Link is 17 "points", so any positive change for Luigi's match-ups will bring Luigi above Link, and seeing that we had three of them going for awhile, that likely may happen.

I have no bias in the chart, except for my opinion on some match-ups, but A) I've only helped with Falcon's and those have been done for ages and B) there was some mathematical errors, but I fixed those a month ago. Luigi's rank reflects Luigi's match-ups. Luigi has a large disadvantage against the two top characters, disadvantages against the next three, and then two more, while only having one advantage, which is against Jigglypuff. That probably doesn't get a character too far, and since people are whining about his rank, that probably means that one or more match-ups are wrong. So, please Luigi enthusiasts, leave your opinions on correcting some of the match-ups.

 

[NixxxoN]

I'm pretty sure I know more about this game than you

You dont know anything about me dude. How many years have you played? Do you have any experience on console VS other good players? Do you have exp. on both PAL and NTSC?

Oh but you are in the mighty PPS clan, you must be so great.

 

[otg]

I ain't whining, I have no idea how luigi matches up vs. pretty much anyone, I just have a hard time believing that he's below Samus or Link. If I had the knowledge to actually contribute to this chart i would.

 

[DMoogle]

Link = Samus. Any thoughts?

Luigi = Mario. I used to think Mario > Luigi, but I haven't been having much trouble with this match-up at all. It just be that my Luigi is a lot better than the Marios I've been playing.

Luigi = Falcon. I don't see how Jigglypuff can be = to Falcon but not Luigi.

 

[thegreginator]

Luigi > DK
DKs bair isnt the greatest move ever. Luigi can easily avoid it. All you have to do as Luigi is wait for the right opportunity and then the comboing begins. A patient Luigi will always beat a bair-reliant DK. Also, Luigi has more options to edgeguard DK than the other way around.

As far as Moogle's comments, I think Luigi = Falcon is a little more valid than Luigi = Mario but I dont really see either one being right.

 

[Fireblaster]

Mario > Luigi
Falcon > Luigi

Why anyone would want to debate these is beyond me.

DK is faster than Luigi. DK has more range than Luigi in virtually every aerial move. Those of you that think DK's bair isn't enough to stop Luigi, you have not played a good DK. Not to mention Luigi still has to cause significant damage before he can even think about using Uairs in combos. The only reason Luigi goes even with DK is that he can combo DK more often than DK can combo Luigi.

Luigi = DK

 

[Nintendude]

Nobody's arguing for DK > Luigi. It's currently DK = Luigi and a bunch of us are arguing to keep it that way rather than give Luigi an advantage.

thegreginator, I can just turn your argument around and say that a patient DK will always beat a dair-reliant Luigi. That argument means nothing. DK isn't a bad edguarder either. Luigi's really slow and can have a hard time avoiding the up-B edgeguard. If you grab the edge then Luigi has 2 options: down-B so you get off the edge or just up-B. DK can up-B to beat Luigi's down-B and if Luigi just lands on the stage DK can either ledgehop uair or come up and back-throw.

Falcon runs circles around Luigi and Luigi has to get lots of hits before he can legitimately start a killer combo. It's definitely Falcon > Luigi.

Link > Samus. In fact, I don't think Link >> Samus is unreasonable. Horrible matchup for Samus if Link plays really campy.

 

[P D]

i like how ninten is making his own main seem worse than she actualy is =s

 

[Nintendude]

Another thought:

It would be interesting to plot character point totals on a number line. This way we can see the relative values between characters rather than just assigning them ranks.

An analogous example would be Moh's Scale of Hardness. It's just 1-10, but in reality it looks like this:
1--2--3--4--5---6---7---8-------9-------------------------10

 

[t3h Icy]

Another thought:

It would be interesting to plot character point totals on a number line. This way we can see the relative values between characters rather than just assigning them ranks.

An analogous example would be Moh's Scale of Hardness. It's just 1-10, but in reality it looks like this:
1--2--3--4--5---6---7---8-------9-------------------------10

Done. The colours look "funny", but it shows the ranks at a more proportional level. A little foreshadowing for the tier list as well.

 

[Skrlx]

So who wants to play my weegee?

 

[otg]

Top:

Pika
Fox
Kirby

Mid:

Falcon
Mario
Yoshi
DK
Jiggs

Bottom:

Ness
Link
Luigi
Samus

Is taht how it owuld be laid out?

 

[t3h Icy]

Top:

Pika
Fox
Kirby

Mid:

Falcon
Mario
Yoshi
DK
Jiggs

Bottom:

Ness
Link
Luigi
Samus

Is taht how it owuld be laid out?

One possible layout. Others may want Pikachu to have his own tier, possibly split Middle and/or Bottom into two parts, etc, but we'll worry about that later.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Id do it like this:

Top/High
Pika
Fox
Kirby

Middle:
Falcon
Mario
Yoshi

Low
DK
Jiggs
Ness

Bottom
Link
Luigi
Samus

 

[NixxxoN]

I would separate them in this

Top
Pika

High
Fox
Kirby

Middle:
Falcon
Mario

Low
Yoshi
DK
Jiggs
Ness

Bottom
Link
Luigi
Samus

Although i dont agree with the character order